BHW marketplace 2.0 - thoughts.

[Diamond Damien]

So to reiterate and get some clarifications, future state of costs to BHW to sell services are:

• Jr. VIP, which will be increasing 50% annually
• Sales thread cost
• The BUYER pays an additional 20-30% on top of the service cost, which is pocketed by BHW
• Whatever the cost of escrow would be

In return, we will have the fantastic new ability to have this same entity essentially controlling where money goes, on a BLACK HAT forum, that has had user information leaked publicly in the past, has been the subject of FBI investigations, and sells shady services like cracked Spotify accounts, game hack spam, and document forgery?

I'll be 100% honest, I use this site mainly to interact with others that are in the same field I am, and to provide writing services occasionally. I have also bought tens of thousands of dollars in services from BHW members via the site, and have reviewed thousands of dollars on top of that.

This would be a double kiss of death for me. Fourfold cost increases that affect both buyers and sellers, on top of the current issues that have been going on, I don't see how a massive drop in engagement and quality is not on the horizon. Fix your current issues (blatant fake review spam, site downtime, nightly spam threads where fixes have been proposed and ignored, attrition of high-value members leaving the forum, etc), THEN talk about shiny new objects.

Ahhh no.

• Jr. VIP won't increase annually - where did you get that one from as I need to clarify that language? Clearly states an increase to $147 with current Jr. VIP's grandfathered in.
• Sales thread will cost the same as it currently does $30 a year.
• The additional costs are for running the new marketplace, marketplace server redundancy, platform from which to sell, increased advertising etc etc.
• The escrow service is included in the price.

The money is managed by PalPal and Stripe NOT by "this same entity essentially controlling where money goes"

This is good it's constructive, loving the feedback. As @Sherb doesn't run any services on the marketplace it would be great to get some views of sellers.

 

[Diamond Damien]

Really.. Escrow, worst idea EVER!!! With a BST I want people to come to my site and I'm in control of the sales. No money, no delivery. 20-30% of the service offered, too much! So you have to pay BST costs, then have to give 20-30% of your profits to BHW...

And what if you are selling a subscription? How you going to deal with that?

I vote no!

It won't be for everyone and we won't be closing the existing marketplace so no worries there.
Re escrow- again totally your call.

 

[Lukmat]

Ahhh no.

• Jr. VIP won't increase annually - where did you get that one from as I need to clarify that language? Clearly states an increase to $147 with current Jr. VIP's grandfathered in.
• Sales thread will cost the same as it currently does $30 a year.
• The additional costs are for running the new marketplace, marketplace server redundancy, platform from which to sell, increased advertising etc etc.
• The escrow service is included in the price.

The money is managed by PalPal and Stripe NOT by "this same entity essentially controlling where money goes"

This is good it's constructive, loving the feedback. As @Sherb doesn't run any services on the marketplace it would be great to get some views of sellers.

You got views from sellers. It's ok, if seller have some $19 product but what will keep seller on BHW, if he have $1000 product and each sale you want 30%? For what?
This cash is enough to build SEO and not sell on BHW.

The most worry is that new marketplace will just steal traffic from regular marketplace and users will ask "why the hell your BST is not in new marketplace?"

I can pay even $500/year for Jr.VIP

 

[Fresh Ideas Marketing]

Creating a new or separate marketplace, will be a dumb idea. Same marketplace with options I am okay with it.
It will need no extra servers, just some new moderators I am ready to be one

 

[issorc]

I think this whole thread should be opened in Jr.VIP for sellers exclusive because I feel that admin only focusing on buyers.
Sorry, sellers are making 99% money for BHW.

And sellers are making 0% money without buyers. A marketplace basically has two big components, buyers and sellers. Does make a lot of sense to try to get both opinions about stuff like that.

 

[BBulldog]

I'd rather the current marketplace be purged of garbage BST, than anything else. "Amazon Affiliate Sites" that are just demo imports(off horrible themes), unreadable "native" English content, unresponsive sellers, "giveaways". Also, the Lounge could do with some new rules, as I feel it's gone totally out of control. Can't imagine any payments through this website as long as the lounge is in its current state.

 

[Lukmat]

And sellers are making 0% money without buyers. A marketplace basically has two big components, buyers and sellers. Does make a lot of sense to try to get both opinions about stuff like that.

Buyers will do everything to make some global payment system for the whole marketplace like PayPal. For now it's separated and in next year, someone will introduce BHW 3.0 and single marketplace with 30% ?
Of course if previously PayPal will not close BHW accounts for massive chargebacks and fraudulent refunds or risk activity. Maybe some operational holds, etc.

I respect buyers but this is BLACKHAT, it means, there are 90% normal buyers and thousands of scums.

I'd rather the current marketplace be purged of garbage BST, than anything else. "Amazon Affiliate Sites" that are just demo imports(off horrible themes), unreadable "native" English content, unresponsive sellers, "giveaways". Also, the Lounge could do with some new rules, as I feel it's gone totally out of control. Can't imagine any payments through this website as long as the lounge is in its current state.

This is because titles. If something is called "Spiderman SEO service" or "Terminator Dominator" I think "WTF"

 

[migleezy]

Yes I would pay more but not 20%, it's a really big cut in my opinion.
5% is fair for sure

 

[Diamond Damien]

Would the 20-30% come off the BST sellers price, or would it be added just like Fiverr with the $1 transaction fee etc...(I assume that's why the reference to Fiverr)?

That would be down to the seller. You could fix it however you wanted to.

30% It's a lot though.

OK hear that.

Sounds awesome -- just hope the funds will be transferred rapidly and smoothly to each party.

They would be transfered via the agreement with paypal / stripe we don't see the funds directly.

please also allow to do deal out of BHW ....

Thanks not like a fiverr

We're not going to stop the current option of working outside of BHW. Think of us more as an affiliate you only pay for the business we bring you.

Don't you think that this will raise some out of the system payments?
20%-30% I belive it's too much, however, I totally agree with it if it's total safety.
But don't you think people will start saying "Buy this outside of BHW system and save your 20% and still will be scamming around?

We're never going to stop out of system payments and have no plans to, but what we can offer is security and engagement through the BHW forum. So if both parties are BHW members of good standing then the fee could drop. It's all about ideas at this stage.

Its a terrible idea.
Whats the purpose - to stop people getting scammed? So instead of the person who gets scammed paying everybody else has to pay now?

Only those that chose to use the new marketplace would pay. The current system will still remain.

Its really nice idea.

Thanks

I like current system.

That's great to hear, it's not going anywhere.

I don't know. Would this make the barrier to starting a sales thread higher or lower? I would certainly be prepared to pay a cut to make the market place better, and I'm sure everyone would, but 20-30% seems quite high. What exactly is this figure based on?

OK - appreciate we need to provide more info on what's being offered for that price.

 

[proxygo]

i do have a suggestion about >
Would you pay 20-30% more for a service backed by BHW who's quality is
reviewed on a monthly basis with service indicators and air bnb style review processes.?

how about services in this new 2.0 area pay a slightly higher sales thread fee
rather than a 20/30% service fee, its possible some members might swallow a
slightly higher sales thread fee in 2.0 version even if it was 50/60$ a year
i think most would/might prefer that over the other,

just a thought

 

[Lukmat]

@Diamond Damien - can you explain us, where the new marketplace will be positioned on site? The old marketplace will keep it's position as main? Or new Marketplace on top and old somewhere else?

 

[Diamond Damien]

I would like to believe that the intention is to provide better service. However, from a marketer POV, sellers that are using that service will for the publics eye have a more trustworthy thread therefor forcing others to take that extra service too.

Transactions going through BHW is optional too?



I fully agree.

Yep it's all totally optional. We're not forcing any change just adding another option.

 

[Diamond Damien]

@Diamond Damien Frankly, I was reading this forum as guest , was away for many days. I can say one thing , these horrible thoughts and perceptions are horrifying me. Why to do all this shit?
Instead , why don't we start promoting our pre created shitlist section to keep the buyers and sellers safe.

I am form India here govt. always talk about sex education , why don't BHW start shitlist education thread. Just need to add a Banner on all pages regarding shitlist and done. No raise of 20-30%, no need of increasing anything unless and untill it is hurting profit of the community I love to live for.

Services that were offered by @mikeoff I guess are safe as they already are accepting escrow services, the only thing missed is a complete mod review of the service before approval.

Can you assume what will happen if a mod will be satisfied with the job being a service provider or a person who knows how it works , but not the customer just coz he paid money and he want that back in a month. Here , I am refering about two main marketplace section seo packages and seo linkbuilding. I vote a big NO for atleast these two sections.

Don't quote this message he's got it all wrong per my response here https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/bhw-marketplace-2-0-thoughts.1106901/page-5#post-11921771

It's totally optional - there is no requirement to join the BHW marketplace 2.0 per point 1 of my OP

For clarity:
1. It will be totally optional

 

[Diamond Damien]

20-30% is too much
im with if the fees will be lower especially because PP is not supported here and would like to make someone else get the payment for me

OK understood - as the new marketplace would be totally voluntary you'd just not post there. Or if we offered crypto payments you could receive payments that way? Appreciate that some countries would need additional payment options over and above those we've been speaking with.

I may have missed it, but what additional service is going to be added with the higher price?

For clarity, there will be no increase in Jr. VIP for current Jr. VIP's all Jr. VIP's at the point of price increase are Grandfathered in.

From my perspective, I'd like it to be mandatory that all sellers on here have 2step authentication in place.

That's a good shout, sellers see any issues with this?

Barring , HAF just to JR.VIP you guys already did a great job. Now, what additional services we are going to get for $147 like $50 extra. Many sellers from tier 3 countries can afford this , freelancers and many other. Why not seprate the price from country to country? I am not actually trying to make any difference but yes currency has brought it here.

We'd unfortunately not be able to offer tierd country pricing for buyers and sellers as mentioned above there will be no increase in Jr. VIP for current Jr. VIP's all Jr. VIP's at the point of price increase are Grandfathered in.

I know I might be going against the majority here but I like the idea - as long as returning customers aren't necessarily pigeonholed into using the service.

The vast majority of my business comes from repeat customers. They understand that I charge a far higher price than most for my services but keep coming back because I work well with their niche/site. I'm completely fine with the first 20-30% coming off of the top on a new customer's purchase, but I usually give returning customers 25% off. If that 20-30% comes off on a second purchase, along with my regular discount, I'm losing half of my revenue before even starting.

In my opinion, it's going to be great for those offering a unique, high priced and powerful service.

Exactly - think of us as lead gen / an affiliate, if you take the service off of BHW then that's down to you and we're totally cool with that, BUT if you have all the players on BHW working with you and providing you leads for a cut of that service sold then isn't it win win?

 

[high mike]

I would pay 20-30% if it makes my life easier of course.

 

[Diamond Damien]

just 1 Q reg vip, is that 147+20%tax of 178$ is that correct,
i understand vips with a recurring sub still pay 97+20% tax

but for users like me who have payed there vip via manual
payment PP to bhw 8 yrs due to keeping no CC on my PP after
being hacked twice in 10 yrs, i guess ill have to manual pay
147+29 would that be correct, ill be exempt from 97+20%

just checking for my next manual payment end of the yr boss,
had to pay this way since 2012. manual pp payment to bhw,
i pay from funds within my pp not via CC
just checking which i fall in for next time

That is correct, we will grandfather in all current Jr. VIP's to the $97 level. The tax is only for EU countries. For those that live outside the EU and currently have Jr. VIP it's $97 per year ongoing. No change to what you currently have.

 

[stelios0]

Don't quote this message he's got it all wrong per my response here https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/bhw-marketplace-2-0-thoughts.1106901/page-5#post-11921771

It's totally optional - there is no requirement to join the BHW marketplace 2.0 per point 1 of my OP

Your counter arguments on Sherb's point of view are valid based on info provided. But you didn't reply to the following.

''Fix your current issues (blatant fake review spam, site downtime, nightly spam threads where fixes have been proposed and ignored, attrition of high-value members leaving the forum, etc), THEN talk about shiny new objects.''

Which i totally agree, just browse through the comments in marketplace and you will see ''order 10 Transaction ID XXXX'' ''this is my 3rd order'' from users that have 10 posts and comments only on BST.

Imagine having a house that water enters from the roof and you are planning to build your second pool in your backyard instead of trying to fix your roof.

Also BHW should be doing regular checks on the quality of the products offered (i would pay an extra 5% for that instead of losing my value). In addition, something has to be done with the review copies on members (i am not saying they should not being allowed but there should be a way to be monitored and a heavy banhammer if someone fakes reviews-buyer or seller-)

Then again i am nothing here but a simple member, so yeah If something is planned for the current marketplace i wasn't aware off, feel free to ignore my message.

 

[roman375]

Exactly - think of us as lead gen / an affiliate, if you take the service off of BHW then that's down to you and we're totally cool with that, BUT if you have all the players on BHW working with you and providing you leads for a cut of that service sold then isn't it win win?

My understanding was that the current sellers in the current marketplace are already on BHW and engaging its users. Sellers are already paying yearly for their BSTs to remain active as well as JR VIP memberships, yet not all of the rules laid out for the marketplace are being enforced. With this last comment, it almost sounds like the current state of the regular marketplace is going to become even worse, with all the moderation and support of the staff going to the new marketplace instead.

You also mention providing us leads in return for a cut of the sales made on the second marketplace. Unless I missed it, this was not initially mentioned elsewhere. How exactly will you be generating leads for the sellers on the second marketplace, that is not already being done on the current marketplace (traffic to the forum)?

 

[Diamond Damien]

Thank you for saving me time from typing this all out. I am also voting NO!

Yep this is a common misunderstanding which hopefully I've clarified here https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/bhw-marketplace-2-0-thoughts.1106901/page-5#post-11921771

Jr. VIP, which will be increasing 50% annually - every year ???

so 147$ next year - year after around 220$ year 3 330$
that could drive away all those who just pay to support bhw

No one off price increase first in 13 years.

i only posted what some1 else posted mr f
Jr. VIP, which will be increasing 50% annually

i read that as vip increasing 50% per year
did it mean 50% just going forward then not
per year

For clarity, it's a one-off price increase first in 13 years. It's NOT a per year increase See above

Personally not seeing the added value in ongoing monthly "BHW verifications" of a service, sure it will help a small amount of first time buyers from jumping in at the wrong time on a declining or negligent provider BUT it comes at the expense of regular buyers & members.

If I don't feel like I'm getting adequate value from a seller and doing my own quality analysis on what I'm buying then that's on me. I'm sure a lot of other buyers & resellers will feel the same way, that they don't want to be babysat at a huge premium and hit to profit margins.

And you sir are a long term forum veteran, it's not for you and I totally agree with you that a lot can work it out for themselves, the current structure isn't going anywhere. This is an add-on we're considering to what's currently in place.

Sorry @proxygo I think I mis-stated that as an annual increase vs the annual price increasing. Regardless, I believe that the grandfathering in is based on PayPal's subscription basis, meaning that you would have to ensure that your pricing is set at the $97+20% as yours is manual (when that time comes).

Thanks @Sherb - yes you're correct, but we're not going to be insane to the second if your membership slips for whatever reason (manual payments etc etc) we'll bump you up. For clarity with BHW 2.0 all should be able to front-load your memberships so if you want to pay manually via your PayPal without a card behind it 10 days (or whenever) before your BHW sub's expire you'll be able to.

If the 30% market is optional and added as a second marketplace instead of a replacement, I have no problem with it.
I can't imagine it will be very popular though.

Per my OP it's optional, not a replacement. From the number of requests we've had for it over the years, I've been surprised how popular with buyers.

I am not sure how I feel about this proposed addition of a second marketplace. I am not going to delve into the planned features and the workings of this second marketplace, as plenty of users have already raised valid concerns. What I am most concerned about, however, is that this will fragment the current buyers and sellers, much to the detriment of engagement on BHW as a whole. How will current sellers with active BSTs factor into the new system? Will we be able to sell the same service on both platforms? If so, the 30% increase in price on the second platform will not make much sense, when users will be able to purchase the exact same service from the original marketplace for a lower price (assuming sellers do not have to pay the 30% out of their own pocket, which, otherwise, would kill a huge amount of services currently being offered)?

If effectively managing and moderating the current marketplace requires the hiring and training of more staff, then surely there are simpler (and arguably more effective) ways to go about raising the funds for this without disrupting and hurting the current ecosystem. For example, what about paid marketplace BST bumps instead of the current user bumps? This has been discussed before but never lead to anything. A paid bumps system for BSTs would solve a lot of the rampant fake posting (fake order confirmations and reviews) currently taking place in the marketplace. Additionally, questionable and outright scam services would not survive long with this system as they simply would not afford to be able to keep bumping their threads when there are concerns about the quality and/or nature of their offer.

Current sellers will be exactly the same as they currently are, no detriment to their engagement. You will be able to sell the same service on both platforms. BHW will do lead-gen for you on the enhanced marketplace.

I like the bumps idea self-service bumping could be a thing allowing sellers to bump X times per Y time period.

@Sherb


i asked , because when i asked about this few weeks back, the indicator i got from DD was
and i stand corrected if im wrong, only users with a bhw sub can carry on paying 97$+tax

people like me who pay via paypal but from funds held within it, would be grouped
with those paying the 147+tax, as i cant get a sub in my pp as i no longer retain a cc
on my account due to being hacked twice, so what ever i buy is done from funds
held with it.

ill have to call PP and see if they allow a sub without a CC

We're looking at other options for current members from feedback in threads and PM's like this one. Love it when we can find things like this to get passionate about.

If your going to charge 20-30% on top i would really expect diligent and detailed reviews. Plus, charge back and manual review if not satiesfied with Services.

Otherwise i would just stick with PP charge back and shitlist / BST reviews.

And that's what you'll get, detailed reviews which in turn will benefit the organic ranking of services on search engines. We're not trying to change what people currently do, we're looking to provide sellers with additional revenue sources.

I think this whole thread should be opened in Jr.VIP for sellers exclusive because I feel that admin only focusing on buyers.
Sorry, sellers are making 99% money for BHW.

We're looking for feedback from both sides so it's open and public. As mentioned in the OP if you have concerns that you'd prefer not to air in public then feel free to pm me.

Why does BHW get 30% of our efforts? None of the moderators I know are talented writers. And reading doesn’t mean you’ve earned that extra 30%.

It may not seem like much to some, but I charge nearly $1,000 for some of my documents. Why the fuck would the forum get 30% on top of that on every single sale?

Hahahaha this is the biggest dumpster fire I’ve seen since BITCONNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEECCCCTTTTTTT!!!!!

It's totally optional and may not be a service for you. Think of us as an affiliate where the whole of BHW is driving traffic to your service. If a sale is made via a BHW members promotion for your service then they get a cut of that 20% if you make a sale through the current marketplace it's current marketplace rules no change. We totally get it's not going to be for everyone.

 

[Sherb]

Ahhh no.

• Jr. VIP won't increase annually - where did you get that one from as I need to clarify that language? Clearly states an increase to $147 with current Jr. VIP's grandfathered in.
• Sales thread will cost the same as it currently does $30 a year.
• The additional costs are for running the new marketplace, marketplace server redundancy, platform from which to sell, increased advertising etc etc.
• The escrow service is included in the price.

The money is managed by PalPal and Stripe NOT by "this same entity essentially controlling where money goes"

This is good it's constructive, loving the feedback. As @Sherb doesn't run any services on the marketplace it would be great to get some views of sellers.

Thanks for the response. By "increase annually" my wording was meant to be "increase in the annual fee". Sorry if I mis-wrote there. As for me not running any services on the Marketplace, I think we are both well aware as to why I have not done so in the past year and a half. With the way things are structured as you have mentioned, I believe the major burden of additional costs fall on the buyers, not the sellers anyway. Except...

The concern for the sellers, which hasn't been touched on at all in this thread yet, is that they are going to need to provide a review of the full top level of their service with this new structure every month. If I'm offering an SEO service for $1,500 at the highest end that costs me $1,200 to do, I'm looking at another $1,200 every month out of my pocket to ensure that my sales thread stays on the up and up. Say that the highest level is rarely purchased and my revenues are $15,000 a month. With $12,000 in costs, I'm making $3,000 a month profits, $1,200 of which has to go to you just to re-review. What if the service I offer takes 45 days to complete? How will you review every 30 days?

What I'm seeing as a bottom line based on all of these pages of responses is:

• Buyers pay more for security that should be present on this platform anyway, but as the marketplace grew the staffing to handle did not.
• Sellers lose out on revenues having their services re-reviewed, and also have less buyers as the pool of buyers at a 30% inflation in pricing is going to shrink.
• Staff members, if not properly and additionally staffed, will have an additional burden of monthly reviews, which sucks especially for those unpaid and exhausted mods.
• New members will be hella confused with two different tiers of marketplace running concurrently on a site where there are outstanding issues that went unaddressed in your response.

At the end of the day, there might be a few sellers who benefit. There might be a few buyers who can pay an additional 30% to avoid being scammed and walk away happy. But the only person who will truly benefit from this Marketplace 2.0 are those who have an equity stake in Blackhatworld, which is what, you and Greg?

As I stated in my response, my bottom line constructive feedback, which seems to be echoed in 80% of the responses thus far to this: Fix your current issues (blatant fake review spam, site downtime, nightly spam threads where fixes have been proposed and ignored, attrition of high-value members leaving the forum, etc), THEN talk about shiny new objects.

I'll bow out of this thread now. Plenty of work to do. Thanks for hearing me out. Hopefully you can see things from my point of view. As I've mentioned over and over again in these long tirades, I want what is best for the community. And even though it's optional now, it's pretty obvious that two marketplaces won't be able to run simultaneously for long before we are grandfathered into this new format.