Avoiding the military

As long as War creates more income than Peace & World Leaders continue to make everyone else fight over their disagreements, we will have war.

Okay, don't want to get TOO involved with this argument or I'll end up just repeating what myself and others have said...

jazzc said:

Spanish Fly said:

Be thankful that you have the freedom to spew the anti-military crap that you do.

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Thankful? That 's just another part of propaganda you are accustomed to.

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Exactly!

It angers me when people scold me and say I should be thankful for the "freedom" (note the extra large quotes...) to speak out against flaws with our government. Just because we don't get thrown into prison for saying something doesn't mean you get to classify that as some holy freedom that has been blessed upon us by our loving government. It's like if me and you were to get in an argument, and then when you disagree with my opinion, I say, "you should be thankful that I don't bash your fuckin' head in for saying that." Sounds more like a bully than a reasonable friend... I hope you get my point.

jazzc said:

War is justified in pure defence. If and only if an army invades your country, it is justified to fight them out.

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Justified in this context is similar to "politically correct" - has no value in practice. Countries start wars regardless if its justified or not. More than that, the fact you defend yourself still means you kill people. Also, there's an entire process through which 2 countries end up together in a war. Fact is, if people wouldn't be sheep the moment a country's leaders decide to attack another country, regardless of the reasons (e.g. "defend against the evil terrorists"), they kick their asses out of the leadership position. That simple. But people are sheep. What happens to sheep? They get slaughtered.

True power means you don't hurt others. It's a principle and goal present in martial arts for hundreds if not thousands of years. A martial artist can truly consider himself powerful when he is skilled and powerful enough not to hurt his enemy but CONTROL him. Killing is trivial once you decided to do it. People need serious mental programming to get to the point where they find killing ok and doable. Most of them at least.

At the same time, once a conflict has been started, the best way to approach it's solution is in a decisive, abrupt manner. I think Patton said that war it too horrible to be conducted in a mild manner. That being said, there's a trickery to get people to fight. An injection of untruths that they become to accept. Actually this is the premise of any crowd control. Some folks put it really nicely:

"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." - Albert Einstein
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it." - George Orwell
"War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always an evil, never a good. We will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other's children." - Jimmy Carter

Personally, I think that (and you can quote me when I will be dead and famous):
- War is based on one primary thing - the ability of a few smart people to control huge masses of dumb people.
- If you can not win a war or defend against it before it happens, through means like intelligence work, then surrender immediately!

madoctopus said:

Justified in this context is similar to "politically correct" - has no value in practice.

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I don't understand what you mean. It is the non-aggression principle. If you try to hit me, I will defend. How else am I going to stop you from hitting me? Bad breath?

My experience from living in a "communist" country is that everything is for sale. Can't you buy off the officer in charge so that he doesn't choose you to be the one to serve?
Or someone else in charge of keeping all the paper work, pay him to accidentally misplace your application form so that you cannot be picked at all.
There must be a way, it's never random in a communist country. Someone has to hand-pick you to serve, so that someone can also not-hand-pick you to serve

run away lol.. Save your life

Cut of your finger that you use to pull the trigger. It's the most used technique to skip army

jazzc said:

I don't understand what you mean. It is the non-aggression principle. If you try to hit me, I will defend. How else am I going to stop you from hitting me? Bad breath?

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I was thinking a bit deeper/broader. War is not like a 2 people fight. It is not the fight of those fighting but of those ruling. Yeah in the end it comes to defending yourself. But war is not about the killing and is not won because of the killing and fighting. Especially these days. In my country, hundreds of years ago, when enemies attacked, my ancestors poisoned all wells and burned all fields so the enemy was left with nothing for his win. They'd win, but they'd win "fuck all".

madoctopus said:

I was thinking a bit deeper/broader. War is not like a 2 people fight. It is not the fight of those fighting but of those ruling. Yeah in the end it comes to defending yourself. But war is not about the killing and is not won because of the killing and fighting. Especially these days. In my country, hundreds of years ago, when enemies attacked, my ancestors poisoned all wells and burned all fields so the enemy was left with nothing for his win. They'd win, but they'd win "fuck all".

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While I certainly support your right to hold your beliefs, I do believe that they are misinformed. If you want to know about the reasons and purposes of war, I would suggest that your read "The Prince" by Nicolo Machiavelli, and "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. If you want to know more about the beginnings of war, and racism, and many other thing, I would suggest that you investigate the simple fact that long ago war was over resource for ones group and self. This has not change even today.

JustUs said:

While I certainly support your right to hold your beliefs, I do believe that they are misinformed. If you want to know about the reasons and purposes of war, I would suggest that your read "The Prince" by Nicolo Machiavelli, and "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. If you want to know more about the beginnings of war, and racism, and many other thing, I would suggest that you investigate the simple fact that long ago war was over resource for ones group and self. This has not change even today.

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Yeah I know. But that's not the bottom reason. Bottom reason is fear. Fear of not having what to eat, of being hurt, of boogie man (terrorists), etc. Those who rule know masses respond well to fear and can be programmed through it. Take a person you never met before, put fear into him about whatever and he will allow himself to be programmed by you and he will accept what you say without a need to verify. If you don't believe it test it on your friends. Spend one month programming fear into them and you will see after that month they will behave like they always thought that way. It's so natural it's amazing. If you want a simple form of programming through fear think how you train an animal. Even a wild lion at a circus. Or in the case of humans, a parent telling his kid he's good for nothing and "can't do that", "you'll never going to do that", "that's not for you", etc. Or a boyfriend making his woman feel like she has ugly breasts or body. I had this friend (girl) she had small boobs. She'd acknowledge it and accept that's how it is. Then she met a guy. This guy loved her breasts. Touched them different then her previous boyfriends, told her they're beautiful, etc. This was the first guy ever to trully make her feel like a woman (her words). In one year her breasts grew bigger. Like they do when a woman gets pregnant. Think as a young guy a woman tells you in bed that your dick is small. How would that affect you if you're not very secure on yourself? That's what programming can do.

It is also something specific to non-evolved beings because if they'd be evolved they'd see it for what it is - bullshit. And I do not blame the rulers. They're just smarter thank the "sheep". The "sheep" get what they deserve for being "sheep". They have the rulers they have - weak and corrupted - because of the same reason. Things will only change when humanity as a whole will evolve enough. Not sooner. Until then, they will follow whatever the shepherds tell them to do no matter how dumb or bad it is.

Edit - added more on programming.

madoctopus said:

Yeah I know. But that's not the bottom reason. Bottom reason is fear. Fear of not having what to eat, of being hurt, of boogie man (terrorists), etc. Those who rule know masses respond well to fear and can be programmed through it. Take a person you never met before, put fear into him about whatever and he will allow himself to be programmed by you and he will accept what you say without a need to verify. If you don't believe it test it on your friends. Spend one month programming fear into them and you will see after that month they will behave like they always thought that way. It's so natural it's amazing. If you want a simple form of programming through fear think how you train an animal. Even a wild lion at a circus. Or in the case of humans, a parent telling his kid he's good for nothing and "can't do that", "you'll never going to do that", "that's not for you", etc. Or a boyfriend making his woman feel like she has ugly breasts or body. I had this friend (girl) she had small boobs. She'd acknowledge it and accept that's how it is. Then she met a guy. This guy loved her breasts. Touched them different then her previous boyfriends, told her they're beautiful, etc. This was the first guy ever to trully make her feel like a woman (her words). In one year her breasts grew bigger. Like they do when a woman gets pregnant. Think as a young guy a woman tells you in bed that your dick is small. How would that affect you if you're not very secure on yourself? That's what programming can do.

It is also something specific to non-evolved beings because if they'd be evolved they'd see it for what it is - bullshit. And I do not blame the rulers. They're just smarter thank the "sheep". The "sheep" get what they deserve for being "sheep". They have the rulers they have - weak and corrupted - because of the same reason. Things will only change when humanity as a whole will evolve enough. Not sooner. Until then, they will follow whatever the shepherds tell them to do no matter how dumb or bad it is.

Edit - added more on programming.

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Again, with all due respect, you do not know sheet.

You want to talk about fear? I have spent half my adult life in prison. Fear really has nothing to do with what you are speaking of. Fear is a tool that is effective against the weak. Against the strong, fear may be present but it is not the controlling issue. Your strength comes from facing your fear and overcoming it. It is a Buddhist koan that fear is the great mind killer.

You want to speak about the programming aspect? I refer you to the above paragraph. You do not know what you are talking about.

You are rattling off some claptrap that has been fed into you, probably in some social science class in some school, or fed to you by some group. You have never put it to the test, and you have no experience with it.

Courage is doing the thing you fear, accepting that you may fail, or be hurt, but doing it anyhow.

Yes, I have done my military bid, so. Yes, I disagree with unnecessary war. So. The fact is that conflict is inevitable. You are foolish not consider the real possibility, or to accept that you may be the victim of unexpected violence. By extension, you would be a fool not to prepare for it.

You want to claim the bottom line is fear. You are wrong, the bottom line is the survival of yourself, yours, and your clan (tribe, group, nation). Survival is a basic animal instinct.

You are the victim of propaganda. Nothing new here because everyone in the world is subject to propaganda. Some are more receptive to different types than others are.

In closing, the only thing turning the other cheek ever gained, was having the other cheek slapped as well. Once you start running, where do you stop? It is pretty much a universal from the galaxies and stars down into the sub atomic world truth that you are the prey, or the predator.

I don't care if anyone reads this or not, I just need this said.
I agree dodging draft if you lived in a country that has a military industrial complex (MIC) that largely dictates foreign policy. This means starting wars for monetary gains. The USA is such a country at this point in time.
However, you live in one of the 3 largest upcoming economies. Your country has large and valuable national resources, much gang activity, large drug problems and fuck all for an army.
These things invites countries with large MIC's to come in and take all your shit. When that happens I would love to see all the people in this thread cry rivers because they lost their freedom to talk shit, 'being happy to have people die for them' and all the other stuff they feel entitled to.
Guess what, every country get's their asses handed to them at one point in time. EVERY one. At this point in time Brazil is an area of interest for the asskickers in this world.
So, if you go do your duty (it is your duty, not to the government but to you and your people) you will do it for your own country and not because your government wants to make money and kill people.
This means if you dodge draft at this point, you are a traitor. Again, not to your government but to your people.
There is a real chance that there will be people coming for your resources in the next 50 years. They are already doing so in a political and economical way.
I know 50years will be so far out of your fighting cable age. But what are you going to tell your kids? You dodged your national responsibility because you couldn't do 12 months months? Great example.

To sum all this shit up, you don't live in the USA but in Brazil.
Brazil has enough resources to be interesting to people that are able to come in and take all your shit.
Brazil is not a industrial military complex that wages unnecessary war.
Ask the Iraqi's, Afghans if they are happy with people coming in, fucking shit up and taking their resources.
You can ask my grandfolks if they were happy with Germans coming in and just fuck shit up.
All in all, can you look into your children's eyes when the time comes when someone takes all their shit?
And when they ask if they should fight the invader, whether it be by joining regular army or by guerrilla efforts, are you going to say they should fight for what is theirs. And if they have children for what is theirs?
And when they ask you, dad, what would you do? Would you say that you couldn't do 12 months for them, 50 years earlier? What will they think of you?
Whatever you decide, the choice is yours. Just remember that every decision carries it's own consequences.
"Lead by example. Practice what you preach"

Maruk said:

And when they ask you, dad, what would you do? Would you say that you couldn't do 12 months for them, 50 years earlier? What will they think of you?

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You do realise he did not say he wanted to skip fighting when those savage Canadians invade Brazil, right?

There 's a difference when fighting against an aggressor and when slaving away in times of peace.

There 's also a reason why we have division of labour. I could grow veggies myself, but I would be losing money since I can do something more profitable. Therefor, I pay for veggies. Same goes for security. I (you) pay for the service, it 's insane to have every young person drafted to grow cucumbers in the name of the country 's feeding abilities

jazzc said:

You do realise he did not say he wanted to skip fighting when those savage Canadian invade Brazil, right?

There 's a difference when fighting against an aggressor and when slaving away in times of peace.

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You can't just go ahead and pick up a rifle out of the blue and tare shit up when aggressors finally come.
Like I said, it is not going to happen tomorrow but in the future it will.
'Slaving away' in times of peace means leading by example.
What do 12 months of a lifetime mean when you set an example. An example that may save a future generation of a lifetime of misery.
Like I said 'Lead by example and practice what you preach'.
If you can't stomach 12 months of duty in peacetime, don't expect anyone to fight for you when shit hits the time.
When you dodge draft because you don't feel like it, don't expect your kids to do things when they don't feel like it.

Maruk said:

You can't just go ahead and pick up a rifle out of the blue and tare shit up when aggressors finally come.

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Which is why you pay professionals. The role of the rest are for cannon fodder anyway.

'Slaving away' in times of peace means leading by example.

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No, it means "slaving away". It means that you do not own your self, but the state owns you.

What do 12 months of a lifetime mean when you set an example. An example that may save a future generation of a lifetime of misery.

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If you want to save a generation of a lifetime of misery, you produce. You become rich. That 's how the world gets better. You don't become a slave.

If you can't stomach 12 months of duty in peacetime, don't expect anyone to fight for you when shit hits the time.

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Of course I do, just like I expect people to grow tomatoes. I don't like growing tomatoes. Others do and are happy to get paid for that (and I happy to pay for the tomatoes).

When you dodge draft because you don't feel like it, don't expect your kids to do things when they don't feel like it.

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I never expect my kids to do things they do not like. I do not own my kids, they are not my slaves.

Which is why you pay professionals. The role of the rest are for cannon fodder anyway.

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You want professionals to fight your wars? This means high pays, which means more money to be allocated to military. Say hello to the military industrial complex. Which is we didn't want to fight for from the beginning.

No, it means "slaving away". It means that you do not own your self, but the state owns you.

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You are not state owned just because law requires you to do something. With that logic any and all laws make you a slave. Even life itself makes you a slave.

If you want to save a generation of a lifetime of misery, you produce. You become rich. That 's how the world gets better. You don't become a slave.

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The world becomes better when it becomes rich? For wealth to exist, poverty has to as well. We all can't be rich or 'rich' wouldn't even exist.
Point is, to avoid a lifetime of true misery which is occupation of a foreign entity, you have to have a people that knows how to respond to threats. As we can't expect an expensive professional army to not fight for money we only have draft left to fight for self-defense.

Of course I do, just like I expect people to grow tomatoes. I don't like growing tomatoes. Others do and are happy to get paid for that (and I happy to pay for the tomatoes).

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See above, you can't expect a highly paid professional army to stay 100% true to the cause of self-defense. An expensive army needs justification, which means it needs to be good at fighting wars, which means it needs wars to even exist.
A relatively cheap draft based army for self defense only is easily justifiable and doesn't need to rely on money for fabricated wars.

I never expect my kids to do things they do not like. I do not own my kids, they are not my slaves.

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Well, if you don't expect your kids to do things they don't like that's your prerogative.

Maruk said:

You want professionals to fight your wars?

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No, I want professionals to take care of my security, just like I want professional doctors to take care of my health. I do not wish to wage any wars, thank you very much.

This means high pays, which means more money to be allocated to military. Say hello to the military industrial complex. Which is we didn't want to fight for from the beginning.

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I 'll pay high prices to a doctor instead of lower prices to an amateur every time. If you do not want the military industrial complex, all you have to do is reduce government.

You are not state owned just because law requires you to do something. With that logic any and all laws make you a slave.

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The plantation slaves were owned legally by the slave masters. If you force me to work for you, I am your slave, it 's totally obvious.

The world becomes better when it becomes rich? For wealth to exist, poverty has to as well. We all can't be rich or 'rich' wouldn't even exist.

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There will always be comparative poverty and that 's great because it gives people motive to produce more. There is no comparison between a poor person today and a poor person 200 years ago. The reason is the huge difference in total production. The only way to make humanity go forward is by increasing production. And you increase your production by providing value. Provision of value gets you rich.

As we can't expect an expensive professional army to not fight for money we only have draft left to fight for self-defense.

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Sure we can. A professional army is much more efficient over a bunch of amateur cannon fodder dead men walking. And because I take my security seriously, I prefer the best choice.

See above, you can't expect a highly paid professional army to stay 100% true to the cause of self-defense.

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There 's no stronger motive than personal gain.

An expensive army needs justification, which means it needs to be good at fighting wars, which means it needs wars to even exist.

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Have you ever heard of the word "training"? Martial experts train without having to kill anyone to get their "skillz".

A relatively cheap draft based army for self defense only is easily justifiable and doesn't need to rely on money for fabricated wars.

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I prefer security. Maybe you prefer your money over security. Then obviously it does make sense to advocate that other people slave away to compensate for your being a cheapskate.

Well, if you don't expect your kids to do things they don't like that's your prerogative.

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Obviously it 's mine, I did not say it was yours. You are free to beat up your kids to "mold them" I guess

jazzc said:

No, I want professionals to take care of my security, just like I want professional doctors to take care of my health. I do not wish to wage any wars, thank you very much.



I 'll pay high prices to a doctor instead of lower prices to an amateur every time. If you do not want the military industrial complex, all you have to do is reduce government.



The plantation slaves were owned legally by the slave masters. If you force me to work for you, I am your slave, it 's totally obvious.



There will always be comparative poverty and that 's great because it gives people motive to produce more. There is no comparison between a poor person today and a poor person 200 years ago. The reason is the huge difference in total production. The only way to make humanity go forward is by increasing production. And you increase your production by providing value. Provision of value gets you rich.



Sure we can. A professional army is much more efficient over a bunch of amateur cannon fodder dead men walking. And because I take my security seriously, I prefer the best choice.



There 's no stronger motive than personal gain.



Have you ever heard of the word "training"? Martial experts train without having to kill anyone to get their "skillz".



I prefer security. Maybe you prefer your money over security. Then obviously it does make sense to advocate that other people slave away to compensate for your being a cheapskate.



Obviously it 's mine, I did not say it was yours. You are free to beat up your kids to "mold them" I guess

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To be honest, I can't be bothered to answer each point you make individually.
Instead I'll argue just a few points.
A professional army. Who is going to pay a professional army? The government. Which means the people.
If such an army is being paid by a willing people that would be great! In fact, that would be a solution.
As it turns out, people don't want an expensive army that just 'trains' all day and 'does nothing'. They rather have a cheap one for that purpose.
I'll make my point again, in order for a professional, well-paid and well-equipped army to exist you need tax budget. For such a large tax budget to exist you need cause. Training is not cause. War is cause. I can't make it any simpler than that.
Result is, countries need wars to fund AND justify a large and professional army. Result of that is countries that have the means go ahead and fight wars that need not be fought just to justify the large budget.
This justifying of budget doesn't just happen with armies. It happens everywhere in corporate environments.
Second. The slave thing. Yes you are required by law to serve a X amount of time in military service.
You are also required by law to pay X amount of money to taxes. This means you are forced to work to pay taxes. So you are a slave now? By your logic, yes you are. By other logic taxes and draft are reasonable to pay to be able to live in a coherent, save and progressive society.
Luckily we are free to live and form our own opinions and logic. See what I did there?
So, I'll just agree to disagree with you on this topic. After all, the thread was meant for a kid to find a way out of a crappy situation (in his opinion).
Third, I believe the following statement to be way out of line for a MOD. Lead by example they say.

Obviously it 's mine, I did not say it was yours. You are free to beat up your kids to "mold them" I guess

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Can you avoid it by getting down with a infectious disease that will not totally screw you? - i am just kidding

I think you should serve (or enlist or what ever people call it.), it is still better than getting arrested and staining your police record for life!

I don't understand why countries that have no wars to fight, have mandatory service. It should be a choice / voluntary.

i think you should better ask at other forums especially in brazilian forums. We don't know anything about your countries drafting regulations so what we say here, mostly wont help you.

To the debate about doing military service or not. Military is deeply connected with politics and as we all know politics is deeply connected with business world. That means military don't necessarily serve for the best of a country. It is your decision if you can identify yourself with the goals/rules/ideology of military. If yes, be true to yourself and go do it. If not then simply avoid it. It is not about right or wrong, it is just about preferences. Nobody is bad/evil just by going to military or in the same sense nobody is an angel just by avoiding military. Just because you born somewhere shouldn't mean that you need to be a part of it. Just take you stuff and leave.