Deng Xiaoping:Founding Father of China's Economic Rise
America's premier China expert, Ezra Vogel.
Deng Xiaoping and His Opening to the World
this program is brought to you by emory
university
1:25:38
it's a great joy to be here at that
Emery and to be welcomed by Mary Bullock
she didn't L tell you that she was ahead
of our visiting board in our East Asian
Studies at Harvard as well as all the
things she did for the national academy
of science and i was able to take part
in some of the programs that she led and
she played a very key role in the early
years of opening up and I'll later talk
about the science and technology how
important it was to dunk sell pain when
I was turning 70 and trying to think
what i wanted to do when I grew up I
decided that I would leave teaching two
younger more and more lively people who
really could devote themselves their
students i would try to do research on a
topic that i thought was important and
as I thought about it among the places
I've worked on primarily china and japan
but someone some of the smaller
countries of East Asia clearly the most
important thing for Americans to know
about is China and I felt that I could
make perhaps the contribution to trying
to lay out how that formative period of
China turning the corner and opening up
if I could describe that period that
would help us understand what kind of
place china is just as certain countries
in certain formative period say the
United States under mat at madison and
jefferson how we formed in that period
or say how Christianity formed a
critical critical period i think done is
play that same kind of role he played a
very critical role in the formation of
China of the new china now died in 1976
and he took over in 1978 i want to also
express my appreciation
well I'm here for professor steve
hoffman who
helped me engage with the Carter Center
and to those connected with the Carter
Center allowed me to spend a week going
through their library and getting a lot
of materials some of which will have
played a role in the talk i give today
beat the first let's see if i get the
right button here
no I think you got the wrong but I'm
gonna go day on the next button is it is
our person you
let's try this
I just need to know which button and
like hey I which button to go down
Victor odio okay maybe this tradition
know that was no smoking area and push
distribution of chances just over here
okay
they save you 10 but technology should
ask somebody under 30 but now we have
somebody under 10 so thank you very much
when done first picture we have of him
is running to 16 years old and they just
going to France and his trip to France I
think play a very key role in
establishing the background that done
was able to make use of when he came to
power in 1978 now had never been abroad
before he came to power in 1949 needn't
have a very good sense of what it took
to catch up with other countries now to
deal with other countries but done spent
five years in France
from 1922 1925 and then the end of that
25 you went to so union and from january
as a 26 prayer a full 12 months he spent
in the Soviet Union so he had a great
deal of experience in opening he had a
particular slant on things that turn
them into a communist while he was in
France already before he left China in
1920 you become a very committed
nationalist he had reached adulthood
just at the time when this may 1919 in
the so-called may port a fourth movement
had turned out a lot of students and it
was really the birth of public
nationalism in China and Dunn was only a
high school student at that time in
going on county in which one but he took
part in the demonstrations and he was
already very committed as nationalists
to trying to build up the country and he
went to france in the hope that he could
help get some of the secrets of modern
countries and bring those back to China
and in passing the exams he had to study
a lot and prove that he was very bright
and some leaders in China the idea that
since they couldn't get scholarships in
those days like they do now they would
try to go abroad and have a work program
work study program where they work
halftime and then study halftime and
they made this agreement during world
war two and the country they thought was
the best country to study in that time
is France it was considered a great
civilization and they had a great deal
to learn so a lot of the number of
Chinese leaders there for trying to help
start this program
to pick out some very talented young
people and then send them after France
when they got to do France they found
out that their expectations about
getting a good job and earning enough
money to study were unfortunately not to
be realized when they got to France they
found out that the French young man who
had gone to war who survived the war
we're now back in at work besides that
France was suffering from inflation and
was also suffering from depression and
so the French workers had a very hard
time finding jobs and because it may
have a good labor union movements in
those days the rich people in France who
had wonderful homes that down and his
friends could see we're living in a very
fine lifestyle while the French workers
were slugging along and very difficult
circumstances and the Chinese were at
the bottom of the heat they even the
jobs that the French workers did not
want would go to foreign workers and so
they were that bottom and when they
tried to think of what kind of
explanation would that make sense and
they started their own study groups and
say could not earn enough money to go to
universities they had to just work and
when they look for explanations in their
study groups they found out that the
Russian Revolution which had just taken
place several years before was based on
some theories is seen to make sense and
seemed to explain what they were
observing the capitalist exploit the
workers and the countries of advanced
countries that what they call
imperialist countries were exploiting
the other countries of the world and
that seemed to make a lot of sense
they also thought that they could have a
tight organization Lennon head
led them to believe that if they have a
good organization they could really
provide leadership and they felt that
China at that time needed a much
stronger group in leadership and that
the Communist Party could provide that
so already is a very young man young and
others had joined the Communist Party if
you look at this picture the these young
Communist don't look like they came just
out of the gutters in order to get
enough money to get a good education to
pass exams you have to come from a
family was pretty well-to-do and so they
came mostly from merchant family or from
landlord family and they had been among
the best and the brightest in China to
be selected for this opportunity in the
early nineteen twenties are about 2,500
Chinese study in France nothing like the
numbers that came to the United States
after done really opened up after 78 but
it for that period it was a very
important group more than the this to
return students from any other country
and in the thirties and forties in the
Civil War this group did not necessarily
place that's an important role but when
trying to begin to modernize a little
bit in the fifties and much more after
done came to power and 78 these people
were called upon to play a very
important role because they knew more
about the outside world in various
fields the leader of the group in Europe
already was John lie who is right here
in the middle of the picture 6 years
older than done
he was the one who became premier and
foreign minister in charge of Foreign
Affairs who welcomed Kissinger and Nixon
to China and
he was remained a mentor for decades at
the far left as a man named John I'm
sure Mary is familiar with because he
played such an important role in the
scientific development particularly in
military science and played a very key
role a couple to the into your right of
John lie i was leaving shonu play a very
key role in the first five year plan and
the economic development of china anne
way back in the background a bench back
there is done shopping who was one of
the youngest in the group
some people say he was five feet tall
some people say he was really only 4 11
but there is a little dung already very
active in the communist organization as
a very young man when done was working
in China after 1949 after the comments
came to power for the past three years
he was in charge of the Southwest bureau
and got experience in local
administration with 1052 he went to
Beijing and there because it was a cold
war the corners that he saw were mostly
of course from the Soviet Union Eastern
Europe and other communist countries and
now already considered him as a
potential successor as a very right
bright young person who is very
dedicated in dealing with the Soviet
Union hear his mouth famous trip to the
Soviet Union 1957 now on your right and
then stepping on the left showing that
done was already playing a very
important role in the Communist world is
done welcoming enchanted crucial in
making 60 but then also was in Moscow
i'm sorry the mountain and this wasn't
an engaging but crucial was welcoming
down in Moscow
but none was also there in 1936 of the
20 party congress and at that party
congress Chris job gave such a
devastating account of Stalin that
anybody who would work with Stalin was
hard and was difficult to regain
authority nearly all the Soviet leaders
had worked under Stalin and were there
by tarde and that devastated the
authority of the communist party of the
soviet union and Dunn was already turned
by that time if China should ever
criticize a leader they should not have
that same kind of devastating overall
criticism that would make it difficult
for the successors they have the
authority necessary to do their work
done of course met a lot of other
communist officials from other countries
here is with what he men of Vietnam they
have been in France at the same time
they hadn't really we got to know each
other than but they came to know each
other at a later time in the early
sixties mal was so furious at the so
union that they exchanged a series of
nine letters between Moscow and Beijing
that were devastatingly critical of the
Soviet Union now but unsettling in
charge of that it had a year study in
Moscow already had proved that he could
argue it was sloppy and the others and
he's off to Moscow in 1963 for the last
final big debate sort of ending that
period of relation of hostile exchanges
with the Soviet Union and making a
pretty clean break if you look at done
at this period you don't get the
impression that he's suffering from an
inferiority complex just because he's
only five feet tall and when i
interviewed President Carter about this
he said there was some of the Soviet
leaders try to impress him with all they
knew and to show off and but with down
he seemed to have an inner confidence so
you could be
get down to business right away and here
the other some other leaders John lie
right to left behind him a punk John the
head of the party in Beijing osho t2 is
left the chairman of the Communist Party
all of them
chairman of China all of them very
important leaders and done is going off
to be the head in the argument with sis
laughs and now is very proud of what
done did and those arguments now a few
years later however after the Great Leap
Forward with began to fall apart they
done and mouths relationship got worse i
think what done began to feel is that
now did not correct for the errors of
the of the great leap forward and that
that was devastating to the country and
you and ruining life of the people and
leading to tens of millions of deaths he
knew that now is so powerful that in his
presence he and everybody else would hit
could only say positive things to mail
but what he tried to do is distance
himself from now and to have a little
more independence in his own sphere by
not going about quite so often at that
time Miles said why is done always
sitting in the back row and not paying
much attention to what i say so by 1966
when now thought the Revolution was not
being pursued hard enough and that too
many people are making compromises with
the
the better economic organization he
decided to push the Cultural Revolution
and the two biggest targets were two top
leaders yoshiaki and done champagne so
from 1966 to 1973 done was out of it
one I think positive benefit is that
from 69 to 73 when he was down in
general she he had plenty of time to
think about what he would do one of my
colleagues at Harvard David gurjen
points out that a lot of the great
leaders of the world who really make
great changes including lincoln and
Churchill and the gall had had high
positions then fell and we're outside
for a long period of time and while they
were outside they had an opportunity
calls that the experience in the
wilderness and experience that
opportunity to think about long-range
pictures and to be a little sure about
the directions they want to go and sort
of had time away from the hustle bustle
of daily activity they have gained
broader perspective so done in 1973 then
comes back to Beijing and now under
mouse watchful eye and at that the first
time he came back was at a dinner that
John lie gave for see note and hear a
song is appearing for the first time in
seven years acting as if nothing ever
happened
ready to go back to work you go and lie
began to get cancer we now know by rapid
72 would certainly by 73 and now also
felt that John lie was not pushing hard
enough against the United States the
United States he was a little too soft
and dealing with Kissinger and it was a
little unhappy with him
so in that in 1973 after done came back
now began to use done to receive foreign
visitors first he said in on meetings
with Joe and then he put him in charge
so from 73 through the end of 75 he was
really in charge
of seeing foreign visitors but under the
tutelage of Gemini this I think is very
poignant picture because John i had been
responsible for foreign policy for so
many years and now my 1974 china was
given the chance of giving a major
speech in the United Nations until 1971
the China seat in the United Nations was
held by Taiwan by junkies checking his //
son and 1971 they switch it to the
Communist seat and so Beijing was began
to repair a major leader to go to the
United Nations to give the first
inaugural speech by a chinese leader in
the United Nations don't lie of course
because of his long service deserve this
but here John why is that the airport
seeing off the man that he was helping
tutor and train and go to the United
Nations 1974 things helping your done as
addressing United Nations here is up
close here he is meeting Kissinger for
the first time of course in the early
years when Kissinger came to China 71-72
when Nixon came done was off after the
Cultural Revolution as a euphemism they
used he was in the peach garden he
wasn't able to attend any of those
meetings so the first time Kissinger met
done with 74 the kissing your consider
John lie one of the two greatest
statesman he ever met and was just
extraordinary leader and when he first
met done what he said was done seem to
be on a training mission he didn't have
any of the smooth suave sophisticated
manner of joe and lie and they didn't
have the breadth of knowledge that
Kissinger that John i had about the
entire world
I personally think that's a little
unfair baby because i think what done
was so worried about when he went was
what now would think and he was unkind
of tender hooks with now at that time
still had just come back from the
Cultural Revolution criticized and he
felt he had to be very careful so rather
than express his own opinion he yielded
to demanded that the left here John who
was foreign minister people who met done
after he returned after Mao's death said
he struck them as very confident boys
knowledgeable ready to talk about the
entire world but this time maybe he was
partly on a training mission just
learning about foreign affairs then at
the end of 75 now again thought done was
going too far in trying to put the
Cultural Revolution behind him and he
purged them again and in and now in 1976
the early part of 1976 decided that he
would name as his successor agua phone
logo from some my Chinese friends he was
it said he was like a to bowser that the
kind of country bumpkin who didn't
really know what was going on I think a
more accurate term would be shunji
Campbell he was a provincial level
person who had done pretty well as a
provincial leader followed now very
closely but did not have the he'd never
really met foreign visitors had no
understanding Foreign Relations said no
but foreign countries had never been a
military leader and many people felt
Egypt he was new to Beijing he just did
not have the breath of perspective the
authority and the ability to guide the
country in a new era so when now died in
sep tember 76 while ago fun assume the
mantle of the top leader and then the
question was do you allow done to come
back and some of the leaders
particularly Marshall you joining the
being military I
who became at that time the person who
was really selecting the top leadership
the most important person as was
convinced that dun wanna come back and
so in August 7877 done was allowed to
come back and when he came back he
immediately wasn't charging foreign
affairs again he was played a major role
in military affairs along with Marshall
gene but he but done also volunteered to
be in charge of Education Science and
Technology he felt that after Mao's
death they could really begin to meant
modernized and in preparation for that
modernization compared to all the other
kinds of modernization in industry and
agriculture and national defense the
most important to done with science
technology education and so immediately
after he came to back to work in semi
sony volunteered for that job overseeing
those areas and he immediately called
together the educators it's hard for
American University people to imagine a
country that closed down universities
for a whole decade some universities
were barely open but not really a china
was not really functioning as a
university system from 1966 the
beginning the cultural evolution to 1977
and so for a whole year universities are
really out of it done also felt that the
way to select students for the
university was strictly by entrance exam
macedonian had always insisted the
political considerations where the
person is really red and dedicated to
the party should always be a major
factor in selecting who should be
allowed to study and going for higher
education but done said we ought to have
merit so he came back and within days
after he started work he already was
able to assemble the education forum
with leading educators including the
minister of education
he asked them can we open universities
as fall and can we begin to have
entrance examinations and they gave him
all the reasons why it was so difficult
that would be about 7 million people
take exams they have to decide which
subjects that have to write the
questions they would have to announce it
so and assembled people had to give the
examinations that have two great
examinations open university those of
you who have been in university
administration understand that that's a
lot of work for educators to manage in
such a short time but the leaders after
they finish it after they finished
sunset then is it possible we might be
able to do this year is it is possibly
said we're gonna do it so in late 77
they had the examinations 47 million
people selected students and reopen the
university's one of the shortcuts for
learning about the outside world about
science and technology for her down
where the Chinese Americans because
these people not only spoke Chinese many
of the been in China in the late forties
knew the situation in China they were up
on world-class levels of science and
technology and so one could very easily
relate to them and ask them what they
had done in science and education and
hear you at that time there were three
Chinese Americans who will know where
Nobel Prize winners one was young
Jenning here is done with the young
Jenning one was saying a thing of MIT
your same thing one was a pair leads and
au and yenza here is with them in
meeting these people he met them more
than once he met them several times over
the next several years you the question
always what can China do to catch up in
modern science and by having making good
use of these chinese americans he wasn't
very good positions he also met a lot of
other leaders in other fields here is a
genuine of the end of the famous
linguist reason I show this picture
though is because his daughter over here
to the right with the Chinese language
teacher at Harvard for many years and
they're in 1960-61 urban hyatt studied
under her and I was also in that same
language class setting from this lady
who is one tough cookie of a language a
teacher but there was a way of done
keeping track of major Chinese
intellectuals particularly science and
technology of course in my book I give a
lot of credit for down as the person who
got things started in December's 1978
really moving forward in the opening of
the country but i think it's hard to
understand what he was able to do
without understanding how ready the
country was how many officials high
officials help that the tenets made
major mistakes in the great report in
the cultural revolution they needed it
distinctly different start but
particularly in the summer of nineteen
seventy-eight they sent abroad a number
of missions to find out what was going
on in the rest of the world and the most
famous of these was the coup mission in
the summer of nineteen seventy-eight
ghumu had been here to the Construction
Commission had been a part of the group
that tried to keep the country running
all during the Cultural Revolution he
there was a small group that was loud
to not take part in the political
struggles but to try to keep the country
the economy and the science going and he
was a deputy premier with some of those
responsibilities with East Indian the
father-in-law of someone who is that the
Carter Center and so goo and his
delegation of people selected young
enough people who could still be in
office for several years from various
departments from various important
ministries connect with various parts of
the economy and they traveled to
Switzerland France Germany Holland and
Belgium for five weeks and got to see
factories they divided up into the
various specialties seeing different
kinds of factories mines port facilities
scientific research centers other civil
institutions and they came back and they
were to give their report after these
five weeks one afternoon and meeting
started three o'clock in the afternoon
went on until midnight and the people
attended that meeting say it really had
a major impact on the change of the
thinking of the top level level
leadership they had been partly a victim
of their own propaganda telling how well
China was doing and downplaying
imperialism and when they saw what was
going on they realized what dumb had
already realized when he went to New
York and 74 and stopped on france on the
way back that China was just way behind
they also carried the information that
the European countries were ready to
lend the money and to give them advice
and help in learning about science and
technology so rather than be simply
discouraged about how far they were
behind they came back
quite excited and over the next few
months they almost got carried away
we're thinking of all the things that
they can import and were ready to jump
ahead to almost too quickly here is done
talking to goon now in november that
year just a few months after that visit
they were having a party work conference
just before the third plenum which was
to open December 78 to try to talk about
overall plans for the next year
Marshall you joining the kingmaker and a
group of others like me sinyun decided
that i'll go phone was not up to the job
he was not doing well enough and they
needed to bring back dunks helping was
the only one who had the experience he
was military leader for 12 years he met
foreign policy had been a regional
leader in the southeast Southwest for
three years with a hundred million
people that he had been in charge of had
been general secretary for taking over
10 years in pitching he had great
knowledge some people say didn't know
that much about economics but he was
finance minister for years and in 53 54
so done who had this extraordinary range
of experience was then selected to
become the top leader
however that they the kingmakers it
recalled that in the NN period now had
been quite open he would only listen to
people but after 49 when he had all the
top titles of
party secretary and chairman of this and
that that and everybody had to memorize
things from now that he no longer listen
to other people and that was very
difficult when terrible errors were made
to get those in because of the
overwhelming the power of one person it
wasn't just now was the whole system and
the people who protected him and thought
about him so they decide that done would
not be given the top titles he would
still be called deputy premier and vice
chairman and not only it was he not
given all those titles but another
person who was about his experience and
authority in the party was paired along
with him
so here we are with chun-yin that other
person along with some shopping
the two leaders it was really a pair
although done was the public spokesman
Kenyan who knew about economics and it
had enormous range of leadership
experiences was on the yes
pull up your even before done was they
were to lead the country as a pair so
that done would not have the overweening
authority that Mao did two months before
that third plenum done made a trip to
japan in earlier and 78 when it was
clearly we're going to start
modernization done realize that the two
countries that they would need to rely
on most for modernization help or Japan
the United States so in October 1978 he
goes to japan it in 2,500 years when
Chinese had been meeting Japanese the
first time a high-level chinese leader
ever met the Emperor was knocked over
1978 when done at the Emperor they
talked for a couple hours over lunch am
the Emperor apologize for the horrors
that they caused World War two
down accepted the apology done said they
had very good conversations and that
provided a kind of underlying basis for
the two countries to work together more
closely over the next three years at and
the news that this was important that
i'm not just in Japan to get the help
but in China to get them to be willing
to work and study under Japanese who
they had learned to hate at since world
war two particularly since world war two
while in Japan done visited many modern
facilities part of these were not just
to show him the pictures were relayed to
the Chinese public so that they could
get a sense of how modern the facilities
were how willing Japanese were to work
with them here he is at the community
steel plant with me a mosquito they had
a kidney Tatsu plant this plant became
the model for the first great modern
steel plant in china by Sean you may
have seen the newspaper is reporting
that china now has more mileage of
Express trains than any other country in
the world but the first time a chinese
leader rode on one of those modern
trains was when done was in Japan for an
October 1978 china had zero mileage and
then did not want to be accused of
finding on japan and yet he went to
recognize what they have accomplished so
when they said done what do you think of
this
well mr. and mr. vice premier what do
you think of the the experience of what
do you think about that he said is very
fast
areas visiting rockaway he also after
that and in November 1978 visit
Southeast Asia and here is meeting at
least the one you the premiere of prime
minister of Singapore when he was born
in 23 some 19 years after done was born
but he knew a lot about the world when I
was in graduate school and some people
said well chinese civilization does not
fit with modernization and the question
raises why Cannot shine and modernize
and some people thought the culture did
not permit modernization but here is an
example already where an ethnically
chinese community 75% ethnically chinese
singapore had already made very rapid
progress and modernization and that of
course was very encouraging and done and
leave when you hit it off very well when
I met only one you to ask him about done
he said he thought he was one of the
most impressive leaders ever met and he
certainly met a lot of leaders of many
countries he said done was willing to
change something he grew up and knew it
was wrong and turn it to a new way in
the fall of nineteen not august 77 after
President Carter had come to office he
sent the Secretary of State to Beijing
but that visit did not go very well and
so in the spring of made 1978 he decided
to send his national security advisor
and at that point
President Carter had determined that
they could begin to negotiate on
normalization although the
is it Nixon had opened the relations
between China United States there's
always been various kinds of problems
whether details of normalization
agreement had not been completed
Ben's big was able to announce that
we're going to move ahead and we're
ready to begin those negotiations done
by this time of course had been famous
for hating the Soviet Union and was
afraid that certain was getting too
powerful especially after the United
States left Vietnam and big who his
father was a Polish diplomat felt for
the Soviets like all pools do and so
young and big immediately hit it off as
anti-soviet and it's big immediately
talk to all the the things of good
things about dung is a very sharp use
quick we could get down to business when
he got home President Carter wrote in
his diary this big cutscene be carried
away and he had it
he's big about being too soft on done
but that President Carter is actually
very happy with the progress that was
made and decided then to move ahead with
normalization talks so the person that
President Carter had put in Beijing to
be head of the liaison offices kind of
the working office before we had
diplomatic relations before he had an
embassy personally put in charge was
Leonard Woodcock and the reason we put
in there was because he was a great
negotiator and he wanted anyone to have
Woodcock negotiate the normalization he
was a person who was respected by the
labor and by management even though he
was a firm dedicated negotiator
and he was also popular in Washington so
that any difficulties in getting
congressional support for normalization
would be much easier because would cut
here they are toasting in December 1978
they just completed the normalization
talks a lot of the talks were connected
with this guy in the middle
Wanhua foreign minister and Woodcock and
but the final stages were conducted by
dung and Woodcock directly when they
asked done about somebody visiting the
United States the United States realize
that microphone was still officially the
premier and still officially the party
chairman and so they didn't thought it
was a little awkward to ask done
directly so the way we would cockpit to
down when he met him was we would like
to invite Chinese leader of your
choosing to visit the United States to
celebrate the normalization and Dunn
said yes I'm ready to go
how about how by next month and and so
in January done was in the united states
in the middle of this guy GTL jew who
had gone to Harvard
1948-52 had the pleasure of showing him
back to his room and their whole any
later came to visit their non was a good
interpreter and New America very well
but he was also a very broad gauged
political politically wise person he
later became pastor the Great Britain
and so you see they had quite good
conversations and President Carter said
that the experience of having done was
one of the most pleasant things that
occurred during his term as president
here they are in January here they are
signing and normalization agreement done
felt that the person who negotiated
normal and who opened up China American
relations ought to receive some
appreciation and he said and there's a
Chinese saying that when you drink water
you have to remember the person who
built the well of course they weren't
drinking water at this occasion but he
said next time played a very major role
how about inviting Nixon back to the
White House Nixon had not been back to
the White House since he was escorted
away after Watergate but President
Carter agreed to welcome back and so
here is Nixon at the White House the
first time after Watergate that he was
allowed to return to the White House
having good conversation with don't
shopping and wait later went off and
Nixon done later had a long private talk
as well here is the messy Congress that
we have learned to live with in love and
here is that without paying little than
the little guy in the middle of picture
and to your left there's that
interpreter g child room and then
sitting down there's a white-haired
plump white haired man who was speaker
the house at that time to pineal and Tip
O'Neill then went and had a long
conversation with which helping and for
a tip regale him with stories of how
Congress brought with a white house
and the two headed out very well and I
invited into China and the nation to
Ponyville accepted at the end of the
conversation when typically i was
stressing how important it is in a
political system have checks and balance
they have Congress that is different
from the White House thumbs up being
said it wouldn't work in China you
wanted a unified single party not a
division of labor here we are at Atlanta
Henry for the second came down to
showing the Ford plant here and my title
and in harvard is the Henry Ford
professor henry ford second professors
social sciences
I never got to meet Henry for the second
but you're done did get to meet him
well while he was in atlanta done yeah
that's smart enough speechwriter to let
him make a speech in which he said after
the horrors of devastation of Atlanta
after the Civil War the wise leaders in
Atlanta
what about rebuilding the their City and
they're pulling up modern a place in the
South it was then very backward China is
now very backward been devastated and we
want they have the same kind of wisdom
and the you people Atlanta had after the
Civil War then went from atlanta to text
into Texas we're getting ready now for
the most famous picture this cowgirl
rides up and and and done a cowboy hat
and here he is wearing the cowboy hat i
meant to Americans this is conveyed the
view that he maybe he's a communist but
is a pleasant guy you can deal with
these human but Orville Schell a
reporter who as China specialist who is
here at the time said that the the
picture had an even bigger impact in
China because when he wore this and the
picture was shown in china it was a
message that even though trying to the
united states have been considered
imperialist for decades was a horrible
country now somehow it's not so bad you
can begin to not only learn science and
technology begin to a buy-in imbibe
American Way of life and opened up the
country and so this picture became an
important symbol for that opening in in
China it happen in 75 when now put
Duncan fairly important responsibilities
and directing things in the country the
person who was in charge early and
liaison office that year was george bush
senior and so the two of them bonded and
become quite friendly it's really quite
remarkable to me how done was able to
relate to so many different American
people of different political parties
and had the same kind of earthy down
direct conversation business no-nonsense
they made it very easy to to really get
along with a lot of people when Reagan
was running for president he talked
about normalizing relations improving
relations with Taiwan and perhaps
normalizing relations which was very
upsetting to done and other Chinese
leaders bush
I've seen your any play heavy roll a
large role in getting over that and here
is a done started working out
arrangements where they would limit we
would limit sales of arms to Taiwan
which had been very upsetting
so that that made it possible
Reagan have a very successful visit
to Beijing and after words after that
visit Reagan said he didn't seem like a
communist in 1982 down met Maggie
Thatcher and she had initiated the visit
wanting to begin to talk about the
problems of Hong Kong when the agreement
on the lease of hong kong the New
Territories would run out in 1997 she
had just won the Falkland war and was
feeling quite confident that the Chinese
advised that the advisors on matters of
China were rather different in the way
they explain things she was known of
course is the iron lady done was known
sometimes as the steel factory and so
here you have the iron lady meeting the
steel factory and she thought at the
time that was still possible to work out
an arrangement where even after the
official return the end of the least 97
that British would be allowed to remain
administers of hong kong provide the
stability that would reassure the
business community so hong kong can
remain vital done made it clear that
that wasn't what he had in mind that
after that least ran out 97 that China
thank you i would resume sovereignty and
would carry out its own administration
however you wanted to work in a
cooperative way after that
yeah Maggie Thatcher was somewhat taken
aback and the way out of the building
she tripped on this and the steps of the
building they were going on that was
filmed in Hong Kong and played and
replayed and replayed the show that the
Aaron lady had fallen
when this she met the steel factory who
was even tougher than she was
many case the two countries then began
negotiating and two years later they
worked out an agreement where Hong Kong
for 50 years would be allowed to keep
its own system in some way ruling be
ruled by local people and that the
authority would we be resumed by China
and here they are two years later at the
end of that happily green that they've
now reached a satisfactory arrangement
for the future of hong kong going tried
to get china and all kinds of
international organizations here is with
what McNamara had the World Bank hello
zio of IMF some of you are probably old
enough to remember in the ancient days
before Wikipedia we just use things
called encyclopedia and then thought
that the Encyclopedia Britannica was a
great way to make lots of Western
knowledge available in China and here is
arranging with Frank kidney for the
translation of the Encyclopedia
Britannica to be available in China
there is with various business people
just a sampling hong kong businesspeople
11 in those days one of the early
computer companies and court again like
the Nobel Prize winners was a very
useful way to give down a sense of what
was required in the country to keep up
with modern information systems here he
is with george bush again in February
1989 over the nineteen eighties there
was still a lot of problems that remain
the student movement has been very
active in 1986 in 1988 there's still a
lot of students who felt that the
political commissars looking over them
were
butting into their private life and they
wanted more freedom and a lot of
individuals resented in the ordinary
citizen resented the specter of secret
police and buying into all kinds of
their affairs in addition 1980 was a
huge inflation and for those salaried
workers who got a set salary at a time
when the country was not rich they were
trying to make it in the middle class
the thirty percent or so inflation that
occurred 1989 was very upsetting and so
they got us students and demonstrators
were beginning to demonstrate in various
places another reason the Foreign Press
was invited the paging in the spring of
89 was because the garbage chef and his
wife's visit as I went out before 1963
relations had been ended with them
shopping in Moscow and then in the
nineteen eighties done realized that to
move ahead
it would be Amanda state to be like the
Soviet Union has been so much a military
when he had so many enemies and so
wonderful form better relations so you
can avoid risk and he said that if the
Soviet Union would just move troops back
away from the border our northern border
if you pull out of afghanistan they
would get vietnam to pull out of
Cambodia we could begin to improve and
regular relations with with the Soviet
Union and Gorbachev 1980 and accepted
the dumbest terms and came to Beijing
and that's why reporters came to Beijing
but of course what they were interested
in was when they got there was the
student movement and because there had
been so much resistance building up in
1988 in 1989 and foreign press was there
to cover it
here we have the goddess of democracy
based on the Statue of Liberty and
tumultuous crowds at
animal square on my 80th I'm a twentieth
nineteen eighty-nine done send troops
unarmed and told them to restore order
but they were stopped by the public who
blocked them with buses in the way and
tanks in the way and once they stopped
the crowds pulled out engines from the
cars and took air out of the tires who
have pushed the tires so they could not
move forward and so they were not able
to establish order then ordered the
troops to go back to this to the
outskirts they build up their horses
from all over China and on jun 3rd done
passed the order that the troops should
have arms and do what was necessary to
restore order they announced the people
should stay off the streets and the
first fired rubber pellets into the air
but when people continue to block the
shot and lot of people were killed and
we saw this on television and all of us
who saw it then realize what a horrible
that was of killing so many unarmed
people in the streets of Beijing
timbrook a scholar a Canadian scholar
who was there and a lot of research on
the number of deaths estimates the
number of deaths in city somewhere
around 1700 there some people destinator
higher and lower we don't know the exact
figure but it was somewhere in that that
range here that the tanks famous picture
thanks coming in and somebody standing
in front trying to stop the thanks vice
president bush was by then president and
this should be dispatched by bush that
reagan and and that this and
Bush who is n president but a very
touching letter to down just after june
fourth he said the reason we are
imposing sanctions is not because we're
trying to destroy china it's because the
Americans have a great faith in
democracy we believe that's the best
system every rule we believe it's more
humane system for the people and that
it's become a great shock to us that
people were killed on your streets and
that the political situation is such
that i must impose sanctions but it's
been very difficult to get relations
with China United States we must find
some way to continue relations the
relations between these two countries is
just too important i consider you down a
special friend and i would like to spend
sound a special delegate to paging to
see if we can't find some way to keep
relations resent brent scowcroft areas
meeting done trying to preserve the
thread relations for the next year's
even other sanctions done said at the
time that the sanctions who will create
difficulties but within several years
businessman from foreign countries will
say we need to find a way to get in the
Chinese market they will go to their
governments and the government's will be
in to resume contact with China in the
meantime we should remain calm people
the oceans were there before 10am on
incident there will be there afterwards
and this picture have done enjoying
himself and water was then circulated as
a way to show that we should remain calm
during this period 1992 done was already
80 years old he finally was saying
goodbye to the political stage here he
is waving goodbye and supporting his
successor
here's a very poignant close-up of done
after he retired yet
you walked around his garden for five
years and in 1997 he passed away just
before his 93rd birthday
se/4 and making for 219 any to do here
is the memorial service for done when he
died in 1997 here at jones men is giving
the funeral oration and afterwards the
united nations were done had given the
initial speech for China's initial
taking over the their responsibilities
United Nation observed a moment of
silence on his death
thank you very much
Oh eager there just willing even eager
people
ok ok time John Carver Georgia Tech so
Ezra when did some shopping decided that
the Stalinists model of economic model
that the CCP imposed on China 1949-50
when did done shopping decide that was a
wacky model that was not a good model
was that a gradual process or was there
a motive for more moment of Revelation
we don't have any precise record done
not keep notes but when i interviewed
his daughter his daughter said that
during the early part of the Great Leap
Forward he realized the system was just
it wasn't just now it was the system i
personally think if you had to guess the
date i would guess mid nineteen
fifty-nine the Great Leap Forward had
already gone and mal was showing
determination to keep it up again even
though in December 58 he might have been
slowing down early 59news riveting up
again done was not only a bridge player
he was a pool player and in late spring
1959 he was playing pool and broke his
leg and he slipped and fell down but his
leg so he was not able to attend the big
party meetings where he would have had
to denounce spoon why and join those
things and I think that was a defining
moment and I can't prove it but i think
i think it is clear is nothing in the
record to show that was during the first
part of the Great Leap Forward when mal
was determined him
but push ahead despite the difficulties
that don't who was no longer able to
stomach after all now was kind of the
big philosopher his story and
behind-the-scenes and downwards on the
front line and when he was a soldier
from 3749 network time he always had to
get ready for the next battle he didn't
have time to consider you know what the
ideology was he wanted to you know
respond to the conditions so that's my
best guess is it was a summer 1959 was a
major break and that he had to go along
after that because my was still in
charge but when he got a chance he told
me he pulled back
yes sir
university you had mentioned that at one
point done had said that democracy
wouldn't work in China that he wanted a
that he thought that a single-party
state was better for china chinese
culture China in general why do you
think that is and and what was what was
done was reasoning as to why it would
not work in China I think that China
from the time of the open war had had
such chaos up to 1949 that it was such a
mess and there were so many millions of
people who were roving and killed and
there was no stable power so they did
not have the underlying stability
permitted economic progress and that it
was very hard to get the unity in 49
and that it again been destroyed in the
cultural revolution that the place had
come apart and it was so chaotic
I think in in the west where Blessid by
having Democratic systems which are very
stable and solid even during are getting
more there was no no real worried that
these people oppose our policy is not
even though they're demonstrating they
were not try to overthrow of our
government but in China there was a real
worried that something should we are
really trying to overthrow the
government and i think that the
communist party after all in killing off
landlords and some of the policies of
the great leapord there are a lot of
people who are very much opposed and
really help the Communist Party would
fall and that under that kind of system
you need a tiger or done setting two or
three occasions that the kind of
political system you have political
reform depends on the political
situation the country
I don't think done oppose democracy said
several times used the term democracy
favorably and in 1978 when he was coming
to power a lot of people were writing
stuff on the wall and was called
democracy wall and he supported for
about four months until the mood came
especially critical the party felt he
had to clamp down at that point so i
think it was his judgment about the
political situation is very interesting
to compare him and who you are bong we
are bond with and the fifties have been
charged the youthfully well then was in
charge of the party who albom job in the
usually was a try to give encouragement
to young people to give them enthusiasm
Dunn's charge the party the buck stop
there he had final responsibility for
keeping order in the country
and he felt that he couldn't run the
risk of any country fall apart again so
i think that's the way he looked at it I
can
yes I'd like to take advantage of your
knowledge of Japan as well as China and
ask you to compare China's after the
Cultural Revolution Dung's encouragement
of Chinese to go out overseas and learn
from other countries with Japan's
similar effort during the Meiji
Restoration both went out other
countries to look what they could learn
took back lessons but didn't absorb them
one hundred percent so how would you
compare the two
well as matter of fact when once i saw
about the GU trip maybe what popped in
my mind was that your commission in the
meiji japan and the meiji pan for 21
months they sent a similar kind of group
around the United States some 15
different countries and they selected
the people the same way that done
selected the people for the Guru trip
and the a were to come back and they
have major responsibilities that I think
for one thing at the Meiji period the
pace of development much slower they
didn't have to worry about immediate
invasion from other countries and Dunn
was very worried
in the fall of nineteen seventy-eight
about potential encirclement by the
Soviet Union and he was upset when
Vietnam is about ready to invade
cambodia so I think the outside
immediate time pressure underdone was
much greater also but I'm done came all
he had the example of Japan even South
Korea and Taiwan then had begun to
modernize with a kind of all of them
that kind of authoritarian leadership
and learning from other countries i
think another difference was the dung
had so many overseas Chinese that he
could draw on and that he could have
them service advisors and Japan didn't
have anything comfortable so they had
invited in foreign specialists but done
invited in foreign specialists in a much
huger way because information technology
was so much more advanced and dunce days
and beginning meiji that they could use
all kinds of information new information
technology and much more contact and a
much bigger broader way China being so
huge they went into all parts of China
wasn't just the small group of foreign
foreigners who came to be teachers as in
May Japan it was just massive numbers of
business educators people from all
fields who were admitted
so those are I would say are some of the
major differences yes
Alice Johnson who was the next leader
after dung died and did he lead the
country the same way as down
that's a very good question and one of
the pictures right for the end I show
this person John's men it was standing
behind him in 1992 and done selected him
right after 18 owing to be the leader at
the time of 89 he had planned to have a
person named Josie on be the next leader
but jail was not willing to impose
martial order and there were a lot of
people felt that he had made some very
bad mistakes with inflation in 1988 so
they needed a new leader right after 10
11 12 they have leader ready so as soon
as they brought in the troops they would
have a new leader take over right away
he also wanted a leader who would not be
implicated in the june fourth crackdown
so somebody lately pun who the lot of
people thought might have been the next
leader had been so closely involved in
the gym for crackdown that if you want
to start a new leaf and try to get the
new the there yet youth of China working
with the new leader that would be
hopeless and so he brought somebody from
Shanghai gentleman who is well-known he
and yet and and several other leaders
from Beijing the Union and genuine spent
winter vacation in Shanghai usually
january for the several years before in
1989 so they all knew him very well so
although his name is not so well known
to the outside world at that point he
was very well known to the top leaders
and they felt the combined a deep
understanding the outside world the
willingness to play reform roll with
ability to be tough and so done selected
him to be the next leader
yes
on I'm family line Frank thanks about
college and my question is adding the
previous question about chinese
democracy
what do you think is the influence of
dense response to 10 men to China's
contemporary path to democracy right now
thank you i think that the the crackdown
Oh hold back the progress I think that
in in 1986 jazzy on was able to carry on
broad discussions about political reform
and they had very big talks about that
and the mood seemed to be one that would
begin to make progress but when
demonstrations occurred in 1989 I think
done felt he had to come back and
tighten up so i think that the impact
was such as to hold back the progress
for several years and I think it wasn't
until the mid-1990s that they will begin
able to move ahead a little forward and
begin to open up things again I think
that any from the point of view of the
leaders of beijing the question is can
they hold the country together and if
there's enough confidence they can hold
it together without using the military
will of course they're very pleased i
think right now again they're very tense
and I'm afraid that the mood is one
where the top leaders are cracking down
again we don't yet know what's going to
happen over the next couple years but i
think if she Jinping was just coming to
the united states now is able to
establish order and things seem to be
going pretty well that he might be
willing to move ahead
his father's Egyptian had been a very
progressive person who supported we
albon and do play a very key role in the
opening up from cuando manda engine and
so I think it's possible that if he
feels that things are going fairly
smoothly and demonstrations under
control that he might be willing to
again pursue further steps toward
democratization yes
Oh what do you think about seek truth
from facts and its relation to down
arrow communist ideology done did not
think the ideology was that important
and in the end period in the nineteen
forties when now was developing very
writing various theoretical articles
many of the people who are indian and
who are more removed from the front
lines that battle could think about big
philosophical historical issues young at
that time was on the front lines and it
was a wartime you know situation we had
continued think about the next battle so
he didn't really have time to to worry
that much about ideology
I think he was very smart and the way he
managed the transition if he had said
you know ideologies no use or mouths of
them thought is not really useful
anymore
the second they would have been a
conservative fight they would have made
a huge mess
what he said was seek to some facts and
even more he said it doesn't matter the
cats black or white as long as it
catches the mouse sure and what he meant
by that was if mounts ideology works
wonderful follow it but
it meant also a mouse in geology didn't
work you gotta find something that works
so it was a roundabout way without
hitting head-on and coming to head-ons
clash with the video logs to to say in
effect that ideology isn't that
important you must seek truth from facts
and you must try what works now that
very much consistent with done
throughout his life he was always a very
pragmatic person and he was given the
frontline responsibility now might have
been chairman of the board but the gun
was chief executive officer he had to
deal with the problems day by day
yes hi dr. Vogel I have a question about
regarding shoppings return after he was
purged twice from the party so could you
just briefly shed some light on the
inner internal workings of the party due
to larger forces summon him back and
given his authority back again or what's
going on in 1977 you mean yes thanks
mm of course i'll go up one who was
mantle's successor had taken
responsibility for arresting the Gang of
Four so hago phone had already gotten
rid of the most radical groups in the
society and I think personally it's
unfair to say that done really began
opening you know of course I writing
about done but chinese history writing
always raises the winner and the winner
is seen to be virtuous and knowledgeable
and correct and the loser is usually
seen to be bad and unimportant
so I think an official writings done
the the emphasis on how downs wonderful
leadership has obscured the role the
positive role that was fun played in
1976-77 i think in fact logo phone was
willing to make lots of changes from now
he one time had to make a speech that
got to be known as the to whatever's
where he wanted to prove that he was
following him out because his only base
of authority was that he was selected by
now but i think that qualifying and in
fact was encouraging people to go to a
broad he was encouraging a greater
opening of the economy and he had gotten
rid of the radicals connect with
mounting mouths what mouths wife and he
now would not have supported that now
wanted his wife to stay active and while
got Ritter so i think that there was
already very considerable support for
moving head that was not just from done
the other dynamic i think is that a lot
of people in the party had been promoted
during the cultural revolution they tend
to be more radical and a lot of the
senior authorities in the party had been
pushed aside in 1976 but even now had
begun to allow them to come back so the
people who put Matt dung in authority in
december is 78 were largely those people
who come back when the great proletarian
Cultural Revolution now it promoted lin
biao and a lot of army people had been
promoted in 71 when Lynn crashed then
and then gradually those army people
were quick aside so the only people they
had really to take responsible
leadership position where those old
catteries so now had a lot allowed a lot
of those old categories to come back
and they were very much against those
people had risen in the cultural
evolution they had much more experience
they knew how to run things and done
relied much more than them and they were
the ones who supported his rides and the
fault making 78 I can't see some of you
back there because the light but rather
more hands back there
good here's my nothing to do with the
relationship between dung and mouth and
Joe and lie
what an extraordinary three trio you
might say and you present a Joe as
Dunn's mentor and and yet uh Joe was
part of the leadership that sends dumb
down and Joe remains loyal to mouth
throughout how do you really
characterize the relationship there
particularly John Lyon done shopping
again we don't have you know all the
records would like to have to answer
that question there is a person as you
know in this is goin Chen who is in
charge of the John lie archives in
Beijing for many years and came out to
the west and then wrote a book on Joanne
I
and he has as much evidence as anybody
and he feels that there was quite a bit
of tension between down and joanne I
perhaps in the mid-fifties it's it's a
very complicated close relationship i
think between those three people and i
wish i had more data a i had i have
enough background in psychology they
have some guesses and my guess is like
this that matter was so powerful and so
overwhelming and dumb and then John I
was in such difficulty in the thirties
when he was criticized that he was never
confident that he could really take over
and he know that if we want to survive
you have to be a better twenty percent
loyal to mail and he tried to do
everything he could to be loyal to him
and he was not after that the kind of
person that would be the number one
leader he wasn't he had not wrong things
on his home he was then the maiden are
the premier under under now so i think
that one then came in as much in some
ways more like mouth and Joe he was more
of a confident person who took charge
who could run things and even though
there was a lot of tension between the
two during the Cultural Revolution when
dung helping was purged and Joe and I
was allowed to stay on and was mouths
right-hand man during the cultural
revolution and played a very complicated
ambivalent role where he got rid of a
lot of people now want to get rid of and
tried to help others to the extent that
he could under mouth umbrella
but i think that Joe and I and and down
because they knew each other in France
and because Joanne lie had served in the
underground and shanghai in the thirties
and Dunn had served under him and lived
next door to him and engaging in the
fifties when Joe was premier and Dunn
was general secretary they work very
closely together and I think that after
73 when it was clear to join lie that he
was not going to be in charge and he
realized for the good of the country
that he could only rely on done shopping
he was that the best person to succeed
him in doing Foreign Relations and done
visited joe in line the hospital many
times after that amount never visited
John am I was more mobile but never
visited joe in line the hospital and
done went often and i think there's no
question he got advice during that time
and in January 76 when Joel I died done
was able to was the one chosen to give
the eulogy at Joe analyze death and he
was reported to be in tears at that time
something that is not often in occurred
in them history so i think there was a
very deep at it and the last 20 years
especially a deep positive relationship
and cooperation between the two thanks
could you go back a little further in
history and tell us a little bit about
how you develop your own interests in
shape modern chinese history and just a
little bit of that your own background
that my I have an unusual background I
my PhD was in sociology
with as an apartment called social
relations at Harvard which include
clinical social psych and social
anthropology my PhD pieces was on the
American family had nothing to do with
Asia and then after I finished that one
of my teachers is young man you're so
provincial you never been out of the
country and if you want to work on
American society I to go to a very
different country with a different
culture and she helped me get a couple
of your grant the japan when I came back
from that I was still working on family
mental health when I went to visit one
teacher in Harvard who said Harvard just
received some money and they wanted to
get a sociologist on China and they
didn't have anybody in mind and since
I've been a Harvard ph.d in that Ben
Asia least what I be in 73 year
fellowship to study Chinese language
history and so forth and I thought about
for 24 hours and said yes and so on high
and I were in beginning Chinese and the
fall of nineteen sixty and I just kept
learning ever since that my problem is
different than most I got promoted to
quick and had responsibilities and had
to keep studying well i was teaching and
people who study France or Europe or now
people study china now learn his
undergraduate sit under the language and
they know a lot about history
I and my three-year postdoc i read a lot
about chinese history but I had to keep
steady so I become a kind of a non-stop
student and I still consider myself a
student and i still got a lot to learn
about chinese history
the preceding program is copyrighted by
emory university
