Bitcoin: When Manias End

+1
Its probably better chances to win in the casino, also easier and doesn't need any technical knowledge
Probability says, it's better chance to win in the casino because casino needs to spread some % of deposits to winners to keep clients. Also casino have a lot less clients than bitcoin have "investors".
There is a chance to predict bitcoin charts but you need to track all wallets. All because even one missed wallet with great number of coins, can change charts. So it's requires huge computing power.
Also human acting, goverment decisions, etc. are not included.
So bitcoin can be like forex but...without real value.

With normal stock, you can check company data before you invest, also everything is moving much slower, you invest in real things.


It's popular only because kids can feel like investors without KYC and taxes.
 
When done to draw conclusions about the future, that's absolutely true. Nothing wrong with doing it near the fireplace with a bottle of whiskey.
History is very well a science. Predicting based on past data isn't History.

Ok, last answer I am going to give to your responses, because I think you do not have a clear understanding of the frame the article portrayed the issue, but I must admit that at least you are intellectually honest and I respect that so here I go, in fact history it is EXACTLY what it does and I qoute:

"History tangles the past with the present in a web of facts. Its practice is to treat things that exist here and now as thought they were concerned in the past and to use them in new composition designed to qeuip people to their trip into the future"
Source: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2081435?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

And not just that the authors says: "Hey listen guys history has show us this has happened in the past to create bubbles, since I know that correlation does not mean causation and because I know history has its epistemiollogical issues, I have another argument to add that it is there is no cashflow in the cryptos furthermore using the mathematical model of discounted cash flow model that it is used to evaluate assets it makes them overvalued just like that happens in the bubbles"

All you keep repeating is that you DO NOT understand the method he used to analyze the problem, you keep saying it is imperfect (which we already know) but he ads another argument to back up the imperfection in his fisrt assumption, but you just pointed the flaw in the method (history is imperfect as a predictive science) but there is no other way to analyze this things.



Just like astrology. The stars may tell you that stock X will rise and it just might do so - who knows, it might happen. The reason we're not using astrology for prediction is that its methodology is insane (i.e. not based on causality).


Causality not good enough?
Nop, what we are trying to find out are the CAUSES of the bubble and how to identify it, not what happends after the bubble... and nop we can't reproduce many social sciences for the repercusions it has in society.


Now, this deserves a lengthier response. So, how do we study things that we can't replicate on a lab (like in social sciences)? Two ways - deduction from strong primitives and statistical tests. Note that by statistical testing we refer to specific robust methodology, not "oh look, a pattern" stuff. And then it's really really tricky to apply the statistical methodology right in non-trivial studies. But those are the ways that have to do with the scientific path when experimentation is out of the question.

There is not model strong enought that takes into account the human behaviour (crazy human behaviour I should add) and I talked about it in my argument, and having a patter it is not enough "correlation does not mean causation"
Deeper explanation and source:

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3Wkn...iki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation.html

Ah, I see why you were wondering. Yes, the reason I did not counter this is because I do not disagree that there will be some kind of consolidation. There are many cryptocurrencies and it is inevitable that some will fail. But that is in no way supporting his hypothesis, and that's what the context ("is this an argument for the hypothesis") that we were talking about.

As I said, I see intellectually honesty in your answers that is why responded with this even I see as well a lack of deep undertanding on the methodology he used or implyed.


The key here is what is the criterion for "better".

He explained at the begining historical data and discounted cashflow model

For the second part, there's tons of commodities that have high prices. Houses, cars, ... bitcoin. But current value is of no sense (i.e. what should you compare a house with? An ounce of gold, a kilo of gold? A house made of gold?). What has sense is how each copes with FUTURE value. Is the future value of a house/car/btc/gold better than that of gold? And then how far in the future is future? 1 day (day traders), 1 year, 50 years?

Wrong in so many ways and this shows your lack of understanding of the main point that it is: "The high price of the asset (in this case bitcoin) DOES NOT justify his real value, and since the entire crypto market follows the same patter I think it is a bubble.

Houses nor cars are commodities source and defintion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity

The main point I tried to make in my first post is that you need a lot more context to analyze that article that most people is willing to take.

Thanks for the respectful answers you gave and for your openess, cheers.
 
This is the very bottom for BTC, it's not going any lower.

Why? Technical analysis. Nothing else matters.

See you at 20k.
 
Probability says, it's better chance to win in the casino because casino needs to spread some % of deposits to winners to keep clients. Also casino have a lot less clients than bitcoin have "investors".
There is a chance to predict bitcoin charts but you need to track all wallets. All because even one missed wallet with great number of coins, can change charts. So it's requires huge computing power.
Also human acting, goverment decisions, etc. are not included.
So bitcoin can be like forex but...without real value.

With normal stock, you can check company data before you invest, also everything is moving much slower, you invest in real things.


It's popular only because kids can feel like investors without KYC and taxes.
Company data is irrelevant, everything is priced in already. Stocks are for boomers. Hedge funds can't even outperform S&P lol
 
"History tangles the past with the present in a web of facts. Its practice is to treat things that exist here and now as thought they were concerned in the past and to use them in new composition designed to qeuip people to their trip into the future"
Source: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2081435?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

This actually says the opposite of what you think :) What does it say?
Things that happened in the past happened for reasons (causality). If we know the causality, we can think about ("composition") how this can work in the future.

Note what it doesn't say: "We detect patterns and we blindly believe they will happen again".

To give you an example. Historically, if a knife get stuck in a heart, the person dies most of the time. If we know nothing about our bodies, the only tool we could use would be the correlation between "knife in heart" - "death". But since we aren't cavemen and we have good knowledge of the human body, we know **why** (the causality) the knife causes death. Huuuge difference. And here's a real-world example of the fallacy.

And not just that the authors says: "Hey listen guys history has show us this has happened in the past to create bubbles, since I know that correlation does not mean causation and because I know history has its epistemiollogical issues, I have another argument to add that it is there is no cashflow in the cryptos furthermore using the mathematical model of discounted cash flow model that it is used to evaluate assets it makes them overvalued just like that happens in the bubbles"

And I said, where's the statistical research to show that wrt to type I and type II errors? And there were no data presented.

All you keep repeating is that you DO NOT understand the method he used to analyze the problem,

At this point, if you really think that I don't understand the epistemology and methodology, after all I've written about it, then what can I say :)

you keep saying it is imperfect (which we already know)

Insane - not imperfect. Huge difference. See below why it's so huge a difference.

but he ads another argument to back up the imperfection in his fisrt assumption, but you just pointed the flaw in the method (history is imperfect as a predictive science) but there is no other way to analyze this things.

As an analogy, think of it like this:

At this point you're saying "ok, the food tastes bad but he added ketchup!". While I said from the start, "this isn't food, it is literally cow excrements". There's no need to argue about ketchup in cow excrements. Actually, ketchup is the only thing we could validly discuss - because that's at least edible.



Nop, what we are trying to find out are the CAUSES of the bubble and how to identify it

Now THAT's exactly what should be going on. The whole problem is that this is not happening at all in said article :)

There is not model strong enought that takes into account the human behaviour (crazy human behaviour I should add)

You seem to be totally unaware of statistics in research, how it works, what its results can tell us and why that is so. I suggest you start with Dowdy's "Statistics for Research" for a (kinda) gentle introduction.

and I talked about it in my argument, and having a patter it is not enough "correlation does not mean causation"

Of course it doesn't. The only reason you see correlations around you is that those are the "catchy" things that can get published in popular magazines. No sane scientist does correlations to prove something. As I said, you need to study the basics of statistical methodology in research.

As I said, I see intellectually honesty in your answers that is why responded

Well, the feeling is mutual. I wouldn't be responding if I thought you were trolling. I genuinely believe that you have the capacity to see the errors and what's missing is only the teacher.


Houses nor cars are commodities source and defintion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity

First of all, housing is commoditized. But, there's no reason to argue semantics. Replace the house and car to something else that's not ambiguous. Same argument stands perfectly well.
 
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Think of it this way, the people adopting bitcoin are supposedly on the bleeding edge of tech, they are the early adopters. Then why does old BTC still dominate when there are better crypto which can handle more transactions at lower fees? Wouldn't the early adopters be more willing to be early adopters of better tech, which is out there?
Easy question cause a big part of bitcoins are under bankers control.Bitcoin is their product and Satoshi is nobody else as an employer of the banker.
When the time is ready and crypto received mass adoption bitcoin is going to be replaced.

There are way better solutions out as bitcoin but still bitcoin is #1 and gets adoption in the big companies even it doesn't own the best tech.Why ?
Because its the bankers product which they control and manipulate.Prices are being dictated by them in circles and you can only watch and try to get part of the cake from implementing blockchain technology into the world by
a)picking the right coin and b) jumping of at the right time to not get hit when the bubble explode purposly to exchange bitcoin with governmental coins....

You guys need to start reading governmental reports so you would even know the year its going to happen.

Majority of tokens are going to die when this happens and only Real use tokens will survice.
Currencies like Bitcoin will all die
 
It started off as an interesting read but I didn’t want to register in order to read the full article.

I can see bitcoin was a bubble. The price was and still is based very heavily on investors that are just in for a profit.

However, I do feel like banking industry is one that desperately needs shaking up by something like crypto currency / bitcoin.

Also, this current scenario brings cloud computing to my mind - that created a similar bubble when it was everyone’s favourite buzzword but now it’s a very important technology (it’s different I know, it’s more of a concept than a single product).

Perhaps bitcoin will slowly fall to a much lower value after this bubble and it might be higher value in many many years. But value aside, I still think it’s a great use of technology, and I think it’s here to stay.

As I always add as a caveat to any crypto comments - in no expert and I’m not basing my comments on any facts or figures, it’s just my personal opinion.
 
Have you seen any digital platform boom out of Eth's smart contracts? :) The demand just isn't there (yet?) compared to the classical solutions.
Crypto will always be theoretical in that sense. Bringing on more and more capabilities. But as you said, has anything real come from it yet? nope. They have endless amounts utilities that each coin will claim it can do, but in the end its about adoption and actual use rather than thinking aloud, ya know?
 
We'll its not yet over that's for sure, the new graphic begin released now,
maybe the new graphic cards will raise the price a bit, who knows :p
just speculations, but they really went out of stock first month of release last time
and prices also went up>> :)


RTX 2080 (20th September)
RTX 2080 TI (27th September)
RTX 2070 (Mid October)

QUADRO RTX 8000 (not sure yet)
Armed with NVIDIA Turing architecture,
4608 CUDA cores,
576 Tensor cores and 48 GB memory,
 
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The thing is, the article. Is comparing apples with bananas as gold has only one use case: store of value. People here mentioning you van only buy stuff with bitcoin from garages and no serious business to decline its value in terms of money transactions. Well this is nonsense. I deal often with China. One example: One client, living in China does business with me. We have a weekly transaction volume of around 3x 10k. How does bitcoin help here? 1. China has restrictions which limits the amount of money that can wired abroad. This would limit our business pretty much. Fixed with bitcoin transactions.
2. Each transaction of 10k would cost me fees of around 40 Euro. With bitcoin it is just 40 Cent.
How could we achieve this with gold? Right.
 
In January I hopped on the huge Nano train that went on. What do you think about the lack of utilities of nano such as smart contracts though? Wouldn't that be more useful as a currency? To allow peers to build a digital platform on top of the currency
nano is not meant to have smart contracts, i feel like what diferenciates them is that they know what they want and they try to do it the better that they can , their only purpose is to be a COIN like a way to exchange value fast secure etc. smart contracts will put a lot of weight in the netwrok wich will make transactions much slower etc i think that those are things that have to be built apart like third party services
 
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