Yo, i need some advice

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But he is not set on the idea too. He just wants to start something.
Click to expand...

No structure, no vision and no pay.

That is a 3 strikes and I'm out deal and should be for you as well.
 
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javabro said:
So few months ago, i quit my job to do something on my own. It is going alright - no complain.

As you can see in my "I turn caffeine into code" heading - im a software guy, pretty good one i would say.

Anyway I have this rich friend (not a very close friend, but a friend nonetheless), who is also pretty good at Software and currently works in a company as good as the company i worked previously. He knows i quit to do something on my own.

Now this friend - calls me this morning and says he wants to start a Software Development company and want me to look over things.

He would pay for office space and salaries for intial staffing. He wants me to look over other devs (who aren't very good) and lead a project (a project he thinks thats gonna make money). Once that project is over, he says we can get other projects and build from there.

Here is the catch - he is not willing to quit the job he is already working. Atleast for now.

I feel like something is odd in here. Don't have that many life experiences.. :suspicious: what do u think? Should I go ahead with it? It is not going to cost me any money. But mu time ofcourse.
Click to expand...

ummmmmmmmm, something does not add up here.
I come from business consulting background (business development and startups) and I can tell you that 90%+ of un-organized partnerships fail miserably and at least one of the partner gets very pissed off and the other one takes the goodies. Here is US there are tons of lawsuits popping up every single day because of this.

Your situation looks fishy, here is why:
Your semi-friend is financially good and is also have a job at a good company, now he knows about you and your skills but at the same time, he knows you were working at a good company like his but you quite that, he is curious and scared of what you will be doing as he wish to do what you did but he can’t, why is that? Because many financially secured people have grew up in a different mentality where they know how to keep good things going, he wants to USE YOU to test his dream idea but then once his dream idea is going good ...... where you will be??? He himself is CHANGING NOTHING AND GIVING UP NOTHING, promising to pay office rent and some expenses which I believe in your country not that much and he will be covering it with part of his salary, while he is getting more experience in years at the good company and getting paid, YOU are paving his dream idea, but at the same time: you lost the “good company” years experience on your resume and you may get paid for what you do for this semi-friend and at the end I guarantee you he will kick you out and eat the fruits.
I don’t know what country you live in and whether it has a strong & fair court system, but if your friend wants to get in a partnership then by all mean get it in writing where you both share 50/50 NEVER LESS, and yeah your experience and your skills can be in comparison to his bills paying part.
There should be 20+ pages of of contract of this partnership and it should be done by a lawyer you choice not your friend. If you can’t afford the lawyer to do the contract then DO NOT DO IT.

I suspect that your semi friend may want to take some business away from his “job company” and have you do the work, and maybe that’s why he wants to stay, the issue is how ethical is this and what are the consequences?

If you feel you can do good alone, by all mean do it yourself, no need to partner with someone until you are 100% sure you can trust them with your life.
 
javabro said:
This is what I wanted. Arguments on both side. Thanks guys

@t2van
I appreciate your advice.
I said it is going "alright" coz - my "great" is a pretty big target. I live in a third world country man.
I have people contacting me few times a week offering me freelance development work. People who i have worked with before.

Technically I can survive years without having to work in a job. I am pretty sure I made the right call.

I know the chances of my saas failing is way higher than i get right it first time. But I enjoy working on it. It wasn't the case when i work in a company. It is much important for me.
Click to expand...
Then tell your friend to fuck off and work for yourself. Money ain't everything.

Freedom and time are more important.
 
I see a bunch of red flags and not a lot of upside for you even if it does work but there might be information not provided or talked about yet.

If the first project works out then what’s the deal? You get a project lead role at the company? You get a percentage of the profit on the next one?

How big is the first project? How much time would it take?

Dev startups are a dime a dozen and you’ve been around here long enough to question this “We’ll get another project” line. What’s the marketing strategy?

Working with friends is a problem more often than not. Doing it without legal agreements in place even more-so.
 
Personally wouldn’t do it. Doesn’t sound like a well thought out plan. Also, it feels like you are working as an employee of sorts, rather than starting as an equal partner.

If you quit your job that’s not where you want to be right?

After quoting my job and going fully self employed 6 years ago I’d say it’s the best thing I’ve ever done - nobody to answer to, nobody to give away your profits to (except for the tax man of course).

Stick to that path, do your own thing. That’s what I’d say.

Further more if something doesn’t quit feel right, it usually isn’t.
 
If you want to work with your friend, make a legal contract paper as well as partnership with project. Due to you quit your job, Don't take risk. Hope for the best
 
If it is a 50-50 partnership (meaning, you get 50% ownership), do it for the experience.
Having a partnership will also force you to mostly focus on ONE thing.

Since other developers are not good, he is expecting you to finish the project single-handedly.

Train the good ones. They will give you spare hours.

From first-hand experience: The bad ones will sink you, so never hire them if you can help it.
Tell your friend that you don't need them and will do their work. Instead of paying them, let him pay you. That way, you get some steady cash flow.
 
My thoughts are that he has to be all in and quit his job if he asks you to be all in for you to give up on your saas project. I feel like this is an episode of shark tank, and he is pitching you some idea that might or might not work out. Time is money, and if he is doing well for himself, then he can hire someone else to do it.

You have worked too hard to start now to work for someone else vision. Your heart will tell you what is right. Again, I wish you nothing but the best of luck @javabro
 
Basically you would be an employee. And for what I have read, you quit your job exactly because of that.
Because you were tired of being an employee and wanted to work for yourself and build your own thing.

I'm not saying you shouldn't take this job. I'm saying you should remember your first decision that has put you in this place. The thoughts you had before and the thoughts you have now.
What is different ? Aren't you enjoying working on your own project as much as you think you would when you quit your job ? You thought it would be different ? Do you miss your old lifestyle ?
Nobody can take this decision for you. You have to think what's best for you and what would make you happy.
 
i had this too over the years and it never turned out good with these scenarios. the only thing that works is if someone invests their full time and has money and/or an investor.
those "you work for free and later if it works out get x% of the company" etc bullshit usually never works out as these people don't plan things properly.
basically he wants you to do the dirty work in the hopes that it works out for him without putting too much effort behind it himself.
how should a company work out, if the one starting it isn't even investing his full time for it ?
i would stay away if i was you and avoid wasting a lot of time in which you could make money for yourself :)
 
No pay? Someone's else passion project without clear boundaries or dates with a subpart team? It sounds like one of those things that really burn you out in a year. You never fully come back from the burnout, so better not go there.
I mean, yeah, there is the chance of it being a jackpot, but world is chocked full of "possible jackpots" and living thinking "I gotta try, it may be a jackpot" is not realistic. Value your mental health as much as your financial future. Good devs are in a position to do so.
You do learn with experience, yes, but you can pick experiences where you learn without getting burned out.
 
javabro said:
So few months ago, i quit my job to do something on my own. It is going alright - no complain.

As you can see in my "I turn caffeine into code" heading - im a software guy, pretty good one i would say.

Anyway I have this rich friend (not a very close friend, but a friend nonetheless), who is also pretty good at Software and currently works in a company as good as the company i worked previously. He knows i quit to do something on my own.

Now this friend - calls me this morning and says he wants to start a Software Development company and want me to look over things.

He would pay for office space and salaries for intial staffing. He wants me to look over other devs (who aren't very good) and lead a project (a project he thinks thats gonna make money). Once that project is over, he says we can get other projects and build from there.

Here is the catch - he is not willing to quit the job he is already working. Atleast for now.

I feel like something is odd in here. Don't have that many life experiences.. :suspicious: what do u think? Should I go ahead with it? It is not going to cost me any money. But mu time ofcourse.
Click to expand...
Nothing to odd to me especially if his job pays hugely (or why is he "rich")?

Ultimately your run the shop he may get some projects but seems to me you will be project manager , maybe CTO etc.

So the pay would have to be accordingly of not then of course why do it?

Edit

Just read no money.
Forget it.
You are building this and if it works you get parts of 100% of your work ? Fuck that

This equity only thing is only ever with if this is a true killer idea,product etc.

Most will fail and you'll waste your time while your friend has his job, so all makes sense now
 
MrDenz said:
I understand your friend but, I understand why are you so skeptical also.

He has that sense of security as far as his job is concerned and he has not yet broken through the part where he feels safe on the other side and that is probably the problem. If you have time, try it because it's all one big life experience and at the same time, you never know how it can end and in which direction it can go.
Click to expand...
Vicairushermit said:
Hey man, I think im coming kinda late to the party but here is some advice that I think no one has mentioned yet, if you decide to take the oportunity you should be very careful with teh amount of work and dedication you will put into it it has happened to many friends of mine that given this chance in pretty similar situations they try to give their best and put a lot of heart and soul into these projects just for their "friend" to take away the credit and not really apreciating all the time and effort they put into the project, i guess my advice to not give you a very long anwser is, if you are going to do it try not go the extra mile or at least try to be really careful while doing it, try your best to work hard enough for things to run smoothly, remember man it will be you that will be the one in the front line it better be for a cause you truly believe in. I hope my advice was useful peace my man and I hope you find your way
Click to expand...
t2van said:
Nah I wouldn't do it.

You will get some additional work and then you have pressure of dealing with the paying work vs managing a team of developers and so on. If he was paying you I could understand it, but he wants a business or idea made without putting any time in on it or paying for privilege of having it developed. It's a cluster f*ck in the making.

Walk away. Keep the friendship for another time.

OR you can do it and learn from your own experience and try to educate someone in the future not to do it for the same reasons ;)

I don't think as well you get the chance to really manage people till you have to do it yourself in terms of managing every little thing that comes with it from insurance to tax and dealing with water cooler talk. Sure you get an insight and might learn some people skills, but it's not the same.
Click to expand...
AAW said:
ummmmmmmmm, something does not add up here.
I come from business consulting background (business development and startups) and I can tell you that 90%+ of un-organized partnerships fail miserably and at least one of the partner gets very pissed off and the other one takes the goodies. Here is US there are tons of lawsuits popping up every single day because of this.

Your situation looks fishy, here is why:
Your semi-friend is financially good and is also have a job at a good company, now he knows about you and your skills but at the same time, he knows you were working at a good company like his but you quite that, he is curious and scared of what you will be doing as he wish to do what you did but he can’t, why is that? Because many financially secured people have grew up in a different mentality where they know how to keep good things going, he wants to USE YOU to test his dream idea but then once his dream idea is going good ...... where you will be??? He himself is CHANGING NOTHING AND GIVING UP NOTHING, promising to pay office rent and some expenses which I believe in your country not that much and he will be covering it with part of his salary, while he is getting more experience in years at the good company and getting paid, YOU are paving his dream idea, but at the same time: you lost the “good company” years experience on your resume and you may get paid for what you do for this semi-friend and at the end I guarantee you he will kick you out and eat the fruits.
I don’t know what country you live in and whether it has a strong & fair court system, but if your friend wants to get in a partnership then by all mean get it in writing where you both share 50/50 NEVER LESS, and yeah your experience and your skills can be in comparison to his bills paying part.
There should be 20+ pages of of contract of this partnership and it should be done by a lawyer you choice not your friend. If you can’t afford the lawyer to do the contract then DO NOT DO IT.

I suspect that your semi friend may want to take some business away from his “job company” and have you do the work, and maybe that’s why he wants to stay, the issue is how ethical is this and what are the consequences?

If you feel you can do good alone, by all mean do it yourself, no need to partner with someone until you are 100% sure you can trust them with your life.
Click to expand...
Meddie said:
Then tell your friend to fuck off and work for yourself. Money ain't everything.

Freedom and time are more important.
Click to expand...
SEOMadHatter said:
I see a bunch of red flags and not a lot of upside for you even if it does work but there might be information not provided or talked about yet.

If the first project works out then what’s the deal? You get a project lead role at the company? You get a percentage of the profit on the next one?

How big is the first project? How much time would it take?

Dev startups are a dime a dozen and you’ve been around here long enough to question this “We’ll get another project” line. What’s the marketing strategy?

Working with friends is a problem more often than not. Doing it without legal agreements in place even more-so.
Click to expand...
davids355 said:
Personally wouldn’t do it. Doesn’t sound like a well thought out plan. Also, it feels like you are working as an employee of sorts, rather than starting as an equal partner.

If you quit your job that’s not where you want to be right?

After quoting my job and going fully self employed 6 years ago I’d say it’s the best thing I’ve ever done - nobody to answer to, nobody to give away your profits to (except for the tax man of course).

Stick to that path, do your own thing. That’s what I’d say.

Further more if something doesn’t quit feel right, it usually isn’t.
Click to expand...
ImBerlinPro said:
If you want to work with your friend, make a legal contract paper as well as partnership with project. Due to you quit your job, Don't take risk. Hope for the best
Click to expand...
reuse said:
If it is a 50-50 partnership (meaning, you get 50% ownership), do it for the experience.
Having a partnership will also force you to mostly focus on ONE thing.

Since other developers are not good, he is expecting you to finish the project single-handedly.

Train the good ones. They will give you spare hours.

From first-hand experience: The bad ones will sink you, so never hire them if you can help it.
Tell your friend that you don't need them and will do their work. Instead of paying them, let him pay you. That way, you get some steady cash flow.
Click to expand...
Mrnewbie said:
My thoughts are that he has to be all in and quit his job if he asks you to be all in for you to give up on your saas project. I feel like this is an episode of shark tank, and he is pitching you some idea that might or might not work out. Time is money, and if he is doing well for himself, then he can hire someone else to do it.

You have worked too hard to start now to work for someone else vision. Your heart will tell you what is right. Again, I wish you nothing but the best of luck @javabro
Click to expand...
Life 101 said:
Basically you would be an employee. And for what I have read, you quit your job exactly because of that.
Because you were tired of being an employee and wanted to work for yourself and build your own thing.

I'm not saying you shouldn't take this job. I'm saying you should remember your first decision that has put you in this place. The thoughts you had before and the thoughts you have now.
What is different ? Aren't you enjoying working on your own project as much as you think you would when you quit your job ? You thought it would be different ? Do you miss your old lifestyle ?
Nobody can take this decision for you. You have to think what's best for you and what would make you happy.
Click to expand...
itz_styx said:
i had this too over the years and it never turned out good with these scenarios. the only thing that works is if someone invests their full time and has money and/or an investor.
those "you work for free and later if it works out get x% of the company" etc bullshit usually never works out as these people don't plan things properly.
basically he wants you to do the dirty work in the hopes that it works out for him without putting too much effort behind it himself.
how should a company work out, if the one starting it isn't even investing his full time for it ?
i would stay away if i was you and avoid wasting a lot of time in which you could make money for yourself :)
Click to expand...
FriendlyPufferfish said:
No pay? Someone's else passion project without clear boundaries or dates with a subpart team? It sounds like one of those things that really burn you out in a year. You never fully come back from the burnout, so better not go there.
I mean, yeah, there is the chance of it being a jackpot, but world is chocked full of "possible jackpots" and living thinking "I gotta try, it may be a jackpot" is not realistic. Value your mental health as much as your financial future. Good devs are in a position to do so.
You do learn with experience, yes, but you can pick experiences where you learn without getting burned out.
Click to expand...
theRevolt said:
Nothing to odd to me especially if his job pays hugely (or why is he "rich")?

Ultimately your run the shop he may get some projects but seems to me you will be project manager , maybe CTO etc.

So the pay would have to be accordingly of not then of course why do it?

Edit

Just read no money.
Forget it.
You are building this and if it works you get parts of 100% of your work ? Fuck that

This equity only thing is only ever with if this is a true killer idea,product etc.

Most will fail and you'll waste your time while your friend has his job, so all makes sense now
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the replies guys. I get your point. I had a feeling this is a bad idea.

But I am a sucker for new challenges. And he is a clever guy. I am gonna setup a meeting and give him an ultimatum.

If he quits the job and joins all in - i would do it (with proper legal contracts ofcourse). I don't think he will quit the job.

I'll keep you guys updated.

Either way, this does not mean im giving up on my personal projects (saas) in any way.
 
I actually don't agree with a lot of the other replies you're getting.

I don't think the guy needs to give up his job. If he's found this client and he's footing the bill for the other devs then he's still putting something in.

If I was in your shoes I'd be far more concerned with my other questions. Mostly with what's your potential upside are you a partner or getting a lead dev job and can the guy actually bring in more work if this one works.

Say (for the sake of argument): you're getting 25% of the company and it's 4-5 days work for you to complete the first project. If he's get a viable way to get more customers in then I'd probably go for it (as long as you get an agreement in the paperwork done before the next project).

Your risk is small and your potential upside is good. A couple of days for a potential stake.

If it means you get a lead dev job, would need to put up a bunch of time to start and/or he doesn't have a good answer on how to get other clients that's a different story.

I don't think him currently working a day job is the issue.
 
It is a tough call. If your present project is going alright and you see a good potential ahead then don't take the offer of your friend.

Managing people is a full-time job and comes with a lot of responsibility, you might also develop guilt later on that you are not getting enough time to work on your personal projects and then all the work will leave a bitter taste.
 
javabro said:
would also love some advice from @BassTrackerBoats @MisterF and @davids355 :)
Click to expand...


If you are considering this, my advice is:

Option 1

First thing is tell him ( don't ask, but tell ) to deposit $250k into a business bank account that you set up.
Anything over $2k needs authorising by both of you as a spend, up to that amount you can spend yourself.

Then you know he is serious from the get go.

It's not about the money, it's about having trust and confidence in him putting his money where is mouth is.

Draw up a legal binding contract which sets out the equity split.
Set a time scale for things.

If in 10 years you have a company worth $100million and you own 30%, then the boy done good.

Option 2

Or if your gut feeling is this isn't that good, walk away.

I knew a guy in the UK found a business angel back in the late 1980s, a very wealthy businessman ( who was later knighted, so became Sir xxxxx ).
Guy pumped money into this business and never got involved except to see the accounts once a month.
Business went bust the following year, as this guy pulled his funds out and took them under. I went to the insolvency meeting as I was a supplier owed money.
This guy never showed, instead he sent 3 staff, a female lawyer and her 2 assistants.

All the directors and shareholders waived their loan rights etc, to enable suppliers to get some payment, she stood up and said he wasn't prepared to do that. She was overheard explaining to one of the assistants that this was his annual tax right off for the year.

Long and short he invested in a business he had zero interest in, it didn't perform as well as he expected and he took it under and offset this against his tax bill, so he actually lost nothing.
 
On the surface it looks good. You bring the time factor and your partner get in the money factor. But like you mentioned, your partner won't quit his job. That's understandable because the startup might not take off.

Worst case scenario:
Your startup doesn't work out.
  1. Your friend loses his investment which he can earn back / it doesn't matter because he is already rich and has a job.
  2. You lose your time (maybe a year or two) which you cannot get back. Pretty much it.

Best case scenario:
Your startup takes off well.
  1. Your friend can jump ship and share the responsibilities along with you.
  2. You are happy cuz you are successful. But will you be comfortable now that your friend has equal say and power in the company?
IMO you should take the offer. But, here you need to secure your position for anything that may become a road block in the future. Like, maybe you will discuss key decisions with him but your say will be final.

Just be careful what you put your name on.
 
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