"Want to Sell" thread is needed in BlackHatWorld

[kingtigerx]

Interesting idea - would love to see this.

 

[code API]

I kinda agree with the OP, however I am afraid that such section may kill the marketplace - why listing there, when you can do it "free" without waiting for approval, no quality control etc.

Maybe with some limitation - 1 open thread per jr VIP at any time, extra ones cost $30 as normal BST, but without the mods approval. This way there will be opportunity to sell some cheap/unused stuff, without turning this free section in the replacement of the marketplace.

How about quarterly limit. Say a Jr VIP is allowed to open a WTS thread within 3 months time window. No way to abuse it in that way.

Once sold out and mod stumble upon it, mod close the thread.

Another better option we also suggested is that we can perhaps pick a mod of our choice who will deduct say 10% percent of the sale listing price of the product, as a fee for being a middle man.

 

[satyr85]

Lets say I want to sell:
- my GSA license I dont need anymore.
- proxies expiring in a week I dont need anymore.
- dedicated server expiring in a week I dont need anymore.
- two domains I own worth maybe registration fee.

I could do it on another forum for free.
I cant here even im paying $97/year for premium membership.
I think premium members deserve more, we deserve right to sell stuff thats not a service on BHW for free.
I know unmoderated section can be mess, but limited to premium members / jrvips shoud be ok.
For many people such privilege would be a reason to upgrade status to jrvip even they dont offer an service so such privilege could be more money for BHW.
Just my 2 friendly cents

 

[gmeades]

What you’re talking about isn’t far off what we currently do for the domains and websites for sale section in the marketplace. A one off won and done style of listing.

However, as mentioned above we review all products on the forum which means we maintaining a fair level of quality control. What would be the general feeling on a section that was clearly marked as “unmoderated” / Wild West - other than to check breaches of the BHW terms. ? This could allow listings at a lower price point or a percentage of revenue could be applied for one off services / low volume items as mentioned above?
Thoughts appreciated

[UPDATE]

After doing a bit more reading, it seems the question here is one of listing items in the marketplace at what members believe to be fees which are too high, not about whether an area of the marketplace should be "moderated" or not.

If this is the case, the discussion should be clarified to be about "fees", and whether a different "fee structure" should be considered, with certain items or categories of items being allowed to be listed in the marketplace for a lower fee, or for no fee at all.

If this is about the possibility of lower fees being implemented, that should be clarified with the discussion being focused on reasons whether to allow certain items to be listed for a lower fee or no fee. It should be clarified that this is not a discussion about an area of the forum being "moderated" or "unmoderated", which is a different matter entirely, and which I have already made my views known on [probably off-topic, but which I've left below), which may not actually be pertinent to this discussion I've come to discover as I've continued reading what's been posted on this thread.

~

[Original Response to Email Asking for Thoughts on Implementing an "Unmoderated" Area of Forum] -

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, but from prior experience over the course of many years, I am not in favor of anything that is set up to be "unmoderated".

The reasons are many -

I have seen far too many "flame wars" break out over someone taking offense over very simple things others have said that they took offense over; I have seen members "gang up" on individuals when one person has either misunderstood or intentionally twisted what someone has said to mean something that was never intended; as well as coming across obviously illegal items; copyrighted materials being sold illegally; fake or broken items being sold, etc. and with no one to alert to what's going on and problems encountered leaves victims without any way to undo any damage or harm caused to them.

There should always be a way to maintain order on a forum or in a marketplace, and the concept of a "wild west" section is not only scarey, but I believe it to be a dangerous concept. In the wild west, when there was no law and order, if you have ever looked into this, you know there were many atrocities which occurred, and the harm caused by many of the atrocities that were committed were never vindicated and those who suffered harm were never restored.

My personal feeling, after having experienced forums that either had no moderator, or had moderators who themselves were belligerent and heavy handed, is that neither one works, and leaves members open to being taken advantage of or being abused.

In either case, it's not a good idea, and in the end rarely, if ever, works as originally intended. It opens up a whole can of worms, and when an attempt is finally made to address the problems which are eventually identified, only breeds resentment amongst those who still cling to the original promise of no moderation ever occurring, as well as from those who feel they had a right to attempt to rip others off or abuse them, since they were promised "no moderation"...

It's just not a road one should go down, and after many years spent in various forums as the internet has evolved since it first began, I had thought these lessons had been learned and were understood to be a step in the wrong direction long ago...

There should always be someone helping to keep things in order and running in a positive manner that is beneficial for everyone involved, and there should always be someone to contact who can intervene and help get things back on a positive footing when things are found to have gone in a negative direction for any reason which may not have ever even come to mind as a possibility of happening when things were still only in the conception stage...

Hope this provides a bit of circumspection and insight as you mull over whether or not this is a good idea and something that you would or would not like to implement...

I really don't see any benefit to it, while plenty of downsides and problems come to mind based on wide experience in the past on forums and sections of forums which were designed to be "unmoderated"...

Respectfully...

We need a Want to Sell thread for Jr. VIP to be able to sell a product or service one-off. Selling does not necessarily have to be a BST all the time. There are situations where I just want to sell off what I do not need or just one unique product that could be beneficial to some buyers in the forum. In that case, I would be wasting money if I open a BST for it, especially if the product price is lower than the BST listing price. Also, such a product is just a one-time sale and wouldn't make sense to open a BST on one copy only.

I hope BlackHatWorld would consider this.

What is a BST...?
Okay, I found it in the acronym section... but I still don't quite get what the problem with Buy Sell Trade is thats being discussed...

Are you looking for a way to give things away for free, if you're not looking to Buy, Sell, or Trade...?

Or are you looking for a different fee structure to list something in the marketplace...?

What seems to be the issue that has been identified and needs to be addressed...?

It certainly isn't clear from what I've read so far, having gone back to the very first post and reading from there...

 

[Lukmat]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, but from prior experience over the course of many years, I am not in favor of anything that is set up to be "unmoderated".

The reasons are many -

I have seen far too many "flame wars" break out over someone taking offense over very simple things others have said that they took offense over; I have seen members "gang up" on individuals when one person has either misunderstood or intentionally twisted what someone has said to mean something that was never intended; as well as coming across obviously illegal items; copyrighted materials being sold illegally; fake or broken items being sold, etc. and with no one to alert to what's going on and problems encountered leaves victims without any way to undo any damage or harm caused to them.

There should always be a way to maintain order on a forum or in a marketplace, and the concept of a "wild west" section is not only scarey, but I believe it to be a dangerous concept. In the wild west, when there was no law and order, if you have ever looked into this, you know there were many atrocities which occurred, and the harm caused by many of the atrocities that were committed were never vindicated and those who suffered harm were never restored.

My personal feeling, after having experienced forums that either had no moderator, or had moderators who themselves were belligerent and heavy handed, is that neither one works, and leaves members open to being taken advantage of or being abused.

In either case, it's not a good idea, and in the end rarely, if ever, works as originally intended. It opens up a whole can of worms, and when an attempt is finally made to address the problems which are eventually identified, only breeds resentment amongst those who still cling to the original promise of no moderation ever occurring, as well as from those who feel they had a right to attempt to rip others off or abuse them, since they were promised "no moderation"...

It's just not a road one should go down, and after many years spent in various forums as the internet has evolved since it first began, I had thought these lessons had been learned and were understood to be a step in the wrong direction long ago...

There should always be someone helping to keep things in order and running in a positive manner that is beneficial for everyone involved, and there should always be someone to contact who can intervene and help get things back on a positive footing when things are found to have gone in a negative direction for any reason which may not have ever even come to mind as a possibility of happening when things were still only in the conception stage...

Hope this provides a bit of circumspection and insight as you mull over whether or not this is a good idea and something that you would or would not like to implement...

I really don't see any benefit to it, while plenty of downsides and problems come to mind based on wide experience in the past on forums and sections of forums which were designed to be "unmoderated"...

Respectfully...

UPDATE

After doing a bit more reading, it seems the question here is one of listing items in the marketplace at what members believe to be fees which are too high, not about whether an area of the marketplace should be "moderated" or not.

If this is the case, the discussion should be clarified to be about "fees", and whether a different "fee structure" should be considered, with certain items or categories of items being allowed to be listed in the marketplace for a lower fee, or for no fee at all.

If this is about the possibility of lower fees being implemented, that should be clarified with the discussion being focused on reasons whether to allow certain items to be listed for a lower fee or no fee. It should be clarified that this is not a discussion about an area of the forum being "moderated" or "unmoderated", which is a different matter entirely, and which I have already made my views known on, which may not actually be pertinent to this discussion I've come to discover as I've continued reading what's been posted on this thread.

You missunderstand, Wild West not means unmoderated. It means sales threads accepted without moderator, but to all posts rules must be respected.

 

[gmeades]

You missunderstand, Wild West not means unmoderated. It means sales threads accepted without moderator, but to all posts rules must be respected.

Thanks for the clarification... ;-)

 

[clickj4ck]

I think they should deffo consider it but there will be some problems too. The person might sell the item to multiple people without the mods knowing.Imagine selling a software for $100 to 10 people!... But overall i think its a great idea.

I my self have lots of stuff which can be sold. I would probably become JR for that reason

 

[Brickbat1]

Well its a great idea, but the following "wwww's" have to be defined. What, When, Who and Why.

1.What can be sold? (Products or Services?)
2. When can it be sold (how long will this sale last - one off or continuously)
3. Who can sell (JrVIP only ?)
4. Why is it being sold on unmoderated WTS ????

Questions 1,2,3 are easy to answer. Question 4 is the tough nut to crack. Is it to really sell a quick one or its to gain leads for upselling (which is not bad in itself but its when things go south it begins to matter).


So my recommendations:
1. Only digital products should go to WTS. All services should go to BST regardless.
2. One free WTS thread per month, additional WTS threads at a flat $10 price
3. Thread expires and is closed in 48 hours and cannot be bumped by seller for any reason during that time, else seller is banned from WTS for 6 months
4. No digital product in excess of $30 allowed.
5. No resale of any digital product being sold on a BST (this is vital)
6. All payments via Paypal only. It becomes Seller's responsibility to do vital due diligence on buyer to prevent stupid Paypal chargebacks.
7. Only JrVIPs allowed to open WTS threads.
8. No moderation, no shitlists allowed, but thread thumbs down negative rating from aggrieved buyer only allowed (with a backup post on the thread). Thumb down from any non-buyer should warrant a ban if reported by seller. 3 such thumbs down in a month for a seller and the seller is banned from WTS for 6 months, no appeal.If seller feels a thumb down is unwarranted, thats a risk he has to live with for choosing to use WTS.

@Diamond Damien , implement these and you would get a self regulated "Wild West WTS " marketplace. I would say go for it. It will unlock more revenue for BHW, will not impact BST's so much particularly if point 5 is adhered to, will not load moderators with any particularly onerous work, and more importantly, will self regulate with the thumbs down system, fear of Paypal chargebacks and thread lifespan.

 

[code API]

Well its a great idea, but the following "wwww's" have to be defined. What, When, Who and Why.

1.What can be sold? (Products or Services?)
2. When can it be sold (how long will this sale last - one off or continuously)
3. Who can sell (JrVIP only ?)
4. Why is it being sold on unmoderated WTS ????

Questions 1,2,3 are easy to answer. Question 4 is the tough nut to crack. Is it to really sell a quick one or its to gain leads for upselling (which is not bad in itself but its when things go south it begins to matter).


So my recommendations:
1. Only digital products should go to WTS. All services should go to BST regardless.
2. One free WTS thread per month, additional WTS threads at a flat $10 price
3. Thread expires and is closed in 48 hours and cannot be bumped by seller for any reason during that time, else seller is banned from WTS for 6 months
4. No digital product in excess of $30 allowed.
5. No resale of any digital product being sold on a BST (this is vital)
6. All payments via Paypal only. It becomes Seller's responsibility to do vital due diligence on buyer to prevent stupid Paypal chargebacks.
7. Only JrVIPs allowed to open WTS threads.
8. No moderation, no shitlists allowed, but thread thumbs down negative rating from aggrieved buyer only allowed (with a backup post on the thread). Thumb down from any non-buyer should warrant a ban if reported by seller. 3 such thumbs down in a month for a seller and the seller is banned from WTS for 6 months, no appeal.If seller feels a thumb down is unwarranted, thats a risk he has to live with for choosing to use WTS.

@Diamond Damien , implement these and you would get a self regulated "Wild West WTS " marketplace. I would say go for it. It will unlock more revenue for BHW, will not impact BST's so much particularly if point 5 is adhered to, will not load moderators with any particularly onerous work, and more importantly, will self regulate with the thumbs down system, fear of Paypal chargebacks and thread lifespan.

Excellent points. But I don't like 3 & 4.
3 may not allow seller enough time to get a buyer. So it's absurb sort of.
4. <= $30 is for losers. There are digital products that are worth a lot more than that yet valuable. If a flat fee of $10 comes into $30 you will have a shitty net profit of $20.

I think the best pricing should be percentage. Let the seller price the product however they like but also reasonably. 10% fee or so is okay.

 

[Brickbat1]

Excellent points. But I don't like 3 & 4.
3 may not allow seller enough time to get a buyer. So it's absurb sort of.
4. <= $30 is for losers. There are digital products that are worth a lot more than that yet valuable. If a flat fee of $10 comes into $30 you will have a shitty net profit of $20.

I think the best pricing should be percentage. Let the seller price the product however they like but also reasonably. 10% fee or so is okay.

The reason for 3 is to prevent competition with BST threads who can only bump once in 3 days. If no expiration date on the thread, it then becomes just as good as a BST. It must be positioned in such a way that it is clearly of a lower tier to BST threads and short thread lifespan is the way out for that. if 48 hours is not good, maybe a week?

Point 4 is also for the same reason as point 3. It must not compete with BST threads. If the freedom to set any price is allowed, its almost as good as a quick unmoderated BST. Besides this, percentage of sale brings in more moderation and a stake in fixing the issue if things go south. You cant take a percentage and sit idly by when there are problems. Its nor fair to do that.

 

[code API]

The reason for 3 is to prevent competition with BST threads who can only bump once in 3 days. If no expiration date on the thread, it then becomes just as good as a BST. It must be positioned in such a way that it is clearly of a lower tier to BST threads and short thread lifespan is the way out for that. if 48 hours is not good, maybe a week?

Point 4 is also for the same reason as point 3. It must not compete with BST threads. If the freedom to set any price is allowed, its almost as good as a quick unmoderated BST. Besides this, percentage of sale brings in more moderation and a stake in fixing the issue if things go south. You cant take a percentage and sit idly by when there are problems. Its nor fair to do that.

Got it.
I support the WTS expiry but I feel like 48 hours is too short. Else, what's the point of quarterly limit on WTS thread opening?
A month expiry is okay as we are not allowed to bump everyday. The usual bumping rules should apply. And WTS thread autocloses in after a month.

4. Isn't WTS going to be unmoderated as is being discussed anyway. That's bae. But they might cap the highest possible price as $999.
I feel like the percentage fee will help BHW also to make even more money. Seller is happy, BHW is happy, buyer's happiness (well depends on his smartness, due diligence, and whatever lite mod rules that apply of course).

 

[Toz]

Honestly, I think such an update would drastically lower the overall credibility of BHW as SL threads would likely go through the roof. BHW would need to hire a team of moderators for this section, alone. That, in itself, could cause major issues.

I think it could work, but it would likely require two things:
1. More strict requirements to become Jr. VIP (perhaps 150 posts, where only 1 post can add to post count per day).
2. Must be Jr. VIP.

Aside from that, I don't know that it would be a good idea to implement.

 

[Brickbat1]

Honestly, I think such an update would drastically lower the overall credibility of BHW as SL threads would likely go through the roof. BHW would need to hire a team of moderators for this section, alone. That, in itself, could cause major issues.

I think it could work, but it would likely require two things:
1. More strict requirements to become Jr. VIP (perhaps 150 posts, where only 1 post can add to post count per day).
2. Must be Jr. VIP.

Aside from that, I don't know that it would be a good idea to implement.

On the contrary, I think it would not. If you read my post a few minutes ago on how it can self regulate, you will see how it can work and be win win for everyone.

 

[Kidades]

Great idea, I'd like to see this.

 

[Toz]

On the contrary, I think it would not. If you read my post a few minutes ago on how it can self regulate, you will see how it can work and be win win for everyone.

I read your posts and still feel the same. The BST is already made up of digital products. Unmoderated = fake accounts / reviews / etc. Not a good idea, IMO.

 

[SOCOM]

If it's kept to Jr. VIP forum then it's great because it'll alleviate the backlog

 

[paydette]

The idea of a bhw bazar sounds awesome but people will abuse it and without mods, how do we punishment those you skirt the rules, few they may be?

 

[MaxGuard]

I like the idea, we can make use of BHW escrow service in one-off sales i think as sellers have issues with escrow because they don't want to pay a cut of profits from every sale so escrow+WTS can be a good combo.

Other than that i think we can recruit more mods i think, people would love to contribute to forum i think. There used to be Mods-in-training like @SoccerLover but i don't see them now too.

 

[Adam Xtubeage]

I like this idea. I think the best way to do this is:

1) This markeplace should only allow Jr.VIP to post sales thread. (This will reduce shitlists a lot)

2) Only 1 sales thread per JR.VIP member. (Ability to delete own salesthread to start a new one)

3) BHW takes a percentage of sale.

4) Thread automatically closed after product sold.


I think this main points are must to start such marketplace.

 

[miyuru2u]

i support this too