SMM - 6 chargebacks $1,280

As far as 'listing everything you have on the guy' it's a waste of time. It might make you feel better but there's nothing you have that he can't just change. Not to mention 99% of panels are just re-selling anyway and how many do you really think are going to look at whatever you post on him? Realistically you're only hurting yourself. Spend that time working.

You might as well appeal. It's not like they're going to ban your account twice and it's not like they're going to give it back anyway.

Your real issue is if you want to keep offering SMM services that if you don't accept PayPal you're going to take a massive hit in revenue. You can offer just crypto but then 99% of buyers are just going to go to the next reseller offering PayPal.
NirvanaWolf said:
What a scum, that guy.

We definitely need a system to safeguard the seller's as well as buyer's money.
@Diamond Damien had the right idea in mind to launch another market place where the payments would get processed through BHW. Paying a bit more is better than losing such a huge amount to scums.
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The seller is going to have to eat those fees cutting into their margins or you run into the same issue. Buyers will just go to the next one on Google accepting PayPal.
 
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NirvanaWolf said:
What a scum, that guy.We definitely need a system to safeguard the seller's as well as buyer's money.
@Diamond Damien had the right idea in mind to launch another market place where the payments would get processed through BHW. Paying a bit more is better than losing such a huge amount to scums.
Click to expand...

That would be nice. I'd use it.

SEOMadHatter said:
As far as 'listing everything you have on the guy' it's a waste of time. It might make you feel better but there's nothing you have that he can't just change. Not to mention 99% of panels are just re-selling anyway and how many do you really think are going to look at whatever you post on him? Realistically you're only hurting yourself. Spend that time working.

You might as well appeal. It's not like they're going to ban your account twice and it's not like they're going to give it back anyway.

Your real issue is if you want to keep offering SMM services that if you don't accept PayPal you're going to take a massive hit in revenue. You can offer just crypto but then 99% of buyers are just going to go to the next reseller offering PayPal.

The seller is going to have to eat those fees cutting into their margins or you run into the same issue. Buyers will just go to the next one on Google accepting PayPal.
Click to expand...

Well, it's not a complete waste of time. See, I actually googled his name and emails and things when he started buying from me. Nothing came up. And actually I talked to a friend who runs a pretty successful panel and he told me he got scammed by the same guy. So he used the same info. Had my friend listed the scammer's information on BHW or anywhere really, I would have found it through my Google searches and wouldn't be in this mess now.

So I'm not gonna list his info for my personal benefit, but to help others. And, well, if someone can pinpoint who this guy is, what his website is, maybe I get a bit of a revenge :)

Plus, I'll list all the links from all his customers, a number of Facebook pages. So maybe they can be made aware of who they're in business with, and hit him with chargebacks on their side, or just stop buying from him.

Yeah, I might appeal. Though I think Paypal charges like $20 bucks for each appeal. I mean, I could end up throwing another $100 down the drain (because 5 chargebacks to appeal) and lose the money I already lost. So, not sure, I might appeal them.

You know, absolutely, not offering Paypal means I take a hit, absolutely. I already had to tell a customer that we don't accept Paypal anymore. But I take about 10 other payment processors, and bank transfers, and credit/debit cards. And if a customer wants to pay a different way (western union, money gram, fucking cash in the mail haha), I'm open to it. I guess I figure, in time I'll have customers who will all be able to pay with methods other than Paypal, and so business will be okay.

Also, I don't resell most of my services. I actually just sell them. I've made good money when Twitter does a purge and Instagram does a purge, because most panels can't provide, and I still can. Plus my services are more stable than most. So people may actually go out of their way to find a way to pay me with the methods I accept, because they want a service that they can't really get anywhere at any given time.

We'll see what happens. I wish I could keep using Paypal, but if I can't, I'm not gonna play cat and mouse with them. Fuck em. Moving on :)

Oh, I'm probably going to apply for 2checkout soon, and if I get accepted, I may do a bit of a KYC process for customers that are legit and then allow them to pay with Paypal through 2co. But as far as the public is concerned, we offer no Paypal anymore.
 
U.S.A, UK, Canada, Australia and many other countries.... have an independent government body called Financial Ombudsman, which provides their services for *FREE ..( free in Australia, that I know for sure).... they can help you with your appeal to make sure you get you money back. Looking forward, there are many alternatives to paypal which I highly suggest you should consider. In my case for example, when I sell a domain that has a value of at least $500, I use escrow ( i pay half and the buyer pays the other half of the escrow fee). 'Been doing this for over than 10 years now and haven't got any single chargeback, even if the buyer wants to :)
 
Scorpion Ghost said:
That would be nice. I'd use it.



Well, it's not a complete waste of time. See, I actually googled his name and emails and things when he started buying from me. Nothing came up. And actually I talked to a friend who runs a pretty successful panel and he told me he got scammed by the same guy. So he used the same info. Had my friend listed the scammer's information on BHW or anywhere really, I would have found it through my Google searches and wouldn't be in this mess now.

So I'm not gonna list his info for my personal benefit, but to help others. And, well, if someone can pinpoint who this guy is, what his website is, maybe I get a bit of a revenge :)

Plus, I'll list all the links from all his customers, a number of Facebook pages. So maybe they can be made aware of who they're in business with, and hit him with chargebacks on their side, or just stop buying from him.

Yeah, I might appeal. Though I think Paypal charges like $20 bucks for each appeal. I mean, I could end up throwing another $100 down the drain (because 5 chargebacks to appeal) and lose the money I already lost. So, not sure, I might appeal them.

You know, absolutely, not offering Paypal means I take a hit, absolutely. I already had to tell a customer that we don't accept Paypal anymore. But I take about 10 other payment processors, and bank transfers, and credit/debit cards. And if a customer wants to pay a different way (western union, money gram, fucking cash in the mail haha), I'm open to it. I guess I figure, in time I'll have customers who will all be able to pay with methods other than Paypal, and so business will be okay.

Also, I don't resell most of my services. I actually just sell them. I've made good money when Twitter does a purge and Instagram does a purge, because most panels can't provide, and I still can. Plus my services are more stable than most. So people may actually go out of their way to find a way to pay me with the methods I accept, because they want a service that they can't really get anywhere at any given time.

We'll see what happens. I wish I could keep using Paypal, but if I can't, I'm not gonna play cat and mouse with them. Fuck em. Moving on :)

Oh, I'm probably going to apply for 2checkout soon, and if I get accepted, I may do a bit of a KYC process for customers that are legit and then allow them to pay with Paypal through 2co. But as far as the public is concerned, we offer no Paypal anymore.
Click to expand...
If you are a supplier, why don't you supply to other panels to save yourself from the headache of chargebacks?
 
If you had Paypal "Funds Now" you would still have access to your funds even though you had some active disputes.
 
Mr. Burnham said:
If you are a supplier, why don't you supply to other panels to save yourself from the headache of chargebacks?
Click to expand...

I do. I just stopped supplying to a panel a week ago, because he could only pay with Paypal, and I had one Paypal account and didn't want to overwhelm it with too many/big payments coming in.

So since he couldn't really pay me other than Paypal, I stopped.

But also, panels are always gonna want discounts. Just because I supply my own services doesn't mean delivery comes cheap, or easy. It costs me money and time to deliver. So I can't do those rock bottom prices that panels want.

Ultimately, doing business with 1 panel, 1 customer, 1 employer, is a recipe for disaster because if they shut down or let you go, you have nothing. Just like payment processors. If you use just 1 payment processors and they suspend you, your business is dead. I'd rather work with the end customers. Some will pay with crypto, some with Payoneer, some with other methods. And if any one of those customers stops buying from me or whatever, dust on my shoulders :)
 
Scorpion Ghost said:
That would be nice. I'd use it.

Well, it's not a complete waste of time. See, I actually googled his name and emails and things when he started buying from me. Nothing came up. And actually I talked to a friend who runs a pretty successful panel and he told me he got scammed by the same guy. So he used the same info. Had my friend listed the scammer's information on BHW or anywhere really, I would have found it through my Google searches and wouldn't be in this mess now.

So I'm not gonna list his info for my personal benefit, but to help others. And, well, if someone can pinpoint who this guy is, what his website is, maybe I get a bit of a revenge :)

Plus, I'll list all the links from all his customers, a number of Facebook pages. So maybe they can be made aware of who they're in business with, and hit him with chargebacks on their side, or just stop buying from him.

Yeah, I might appeal. Though I think Paypal charges like $20 bucks for each appeal. I mean, I could end up throwing another $100 down the drain (because 5 chargebacks to appeal) and lose the money I already lost. So, not sure, I might appeal them.

You know, absolutely, not offering Paypal means I take a hit, absolutely. I already had to tell a customer that we don't accept Paypal anymore. But I take about 10 other payment processors, and bank transfers, and credit/debit cards. And if a customer wants to pay a different way (western union, money gram, fucking cash in the mail haha), I'm open to it. I guess I figure, in time I'll have customers who will all be able to pay with methods other than Paypal, and so business will be okay.

Also, I don't resell most of my services. I actually just sell them. I've made good money when Twitter does a purge and Instagram does a purge, because most panels can't provide, and I still can. Plus my services are more stable than most. So people may actually go out of their way to find a way to pay me with the methods I accept, because they want a service that they can't really get anywhere at any given time.

We'll see what happens. I wish I could keep using Paypal, but if I can't, I'm not gonna play cat and mouse with them. Fuck em. Moving on :)

Oh, I'm probably going to apply for 2checkout soon, and if I get accepted, I may do a bit of a KYC process for customers that are legit and then allow them to pay with Paypal through 2co. But as far as the public is concerned, we offer no Paypal anymore.
Click to expand...

I'm not telling you not to do it. But realistically it's not going to do anything. Even if (and that's a big if) other panels took that kind of time to look into an individual customer he could just use a different name/email.

You're understandably going to be angry but if you can set that emotion aside for a moment you're better off just getting on with your work.

You're right - if you have an edge over resellers then you might get enough willing to use other payment methods. If not, reach out to the resellers and offer them API access. Then you have fewer payment issues to bother with and it's their PayPal they're dealing with.

Oh, and I'm assuming you know this but I think some of the other payment processors have similar issues when it comes to social network services. And, sadly, that shit is only going to get worse.
 
Scorpion Ghost said:
I did. I'll write what happened below.



Absolutely. This is an old thing. Scammers know how Paypal works and feels about digital products, especially SMM services. So they buy a bunch of things, and then the do chargebacks on all. Paypal usually sides with the buyer, and then the scammer keeps the products/services and the money.

I guess it's a little different if you're doing physical products, so you have shipping info and stuff like that. But for digital products and services, how do you give proof of delivery? Scammers know and use Paypal for these types of scams, and Paypal sides with them 99% of the time, and encourages them.



Bro, my account was suspended almost immediately. The guy did 6 chargebacks. After 15 minutes he escalated them all to claims so that Paypal would review them, and he wrote a nice message with each of them where he included my website's link, and lied through his teeth. After about 30 minutes Paypal suspended my account. Like, straight up bro.



Nah, I don't really care, I'll wait 6 months and get my money. It probably won't work anyway.



I'm not sure what you mean about helping when I receive any notification from Paypal in regards to withdrawal.

And the disputes, well, I'll write what happened at the bottom of this post.



I did. I'll write what happened below.



Absolutely. What I've come to realize is that you don't build a business with Paypal as your main payment processor. You can use Paypal, secondary, on the side, for the customers that just can't pay with any other method. But you don't build a business with Paypal, they kill you in a second, no reason given, no appeal possible, just gone in a second.



Oh, I will. When this is all over I'll make a thread and list EVERYTHING!



Yeah, true. I fought it. I'll write what happened at the bottom of this post.



Yeah, thanks.



He mentioned my site link (twice) and service in question in each of the 6 chargebacks he made. I had no chance to do what you did, or didn't want to do.

I know what I know about the scammer. Which of the things are true, who knows. His Paypal is India, on his Skype it's Hanoi, Vietnam.

When this is all over I'll make a thread and list EVERYTHING I have on the guy.



Yeah, I should have done better due diligence.

It's funny. At one point I asked him point blank, I said, "I'm not gonna wake up a few months from now being hit with a number of chargebacks?"

He was like, "No bro I don't do that."

I should've known better...



Actually, I can't call Paypal because I was using a family member's Paypal. But it doesn't matter, in January I lost my real Paypal account that I had for over 4 years with over $30,000++ in transactions. The next day I called Paypal immediately, and there was nothing they could do, it''s a different department that deals with that stuff, bla bla bla, you're permanently suspended, you can get your money back in 6 months, no appeal possible.

Now again the same. Just suspended straight up, can't appeal can't do anything. Such is Paypal - garbage.



I have a TOS. Nothing can be done man. When Paypal suspends you it's done. Especially, I mean, we're talking SMM services/panel, what am I gotta explain? That I provide services they consider high-risk or whatever? Nah.

Plus I suspect my actual domain name is blacklisted on Paypal. Someone had that domain name a few years ago and they had Paypal problems, and they also had a panel on it. I registered the name because it had some backlinks and stuff. But I didn't know that person who previously owned the domain name had Paypal problems.

And then when they banned my Paypal account in January, I suspected the domain name is blacklisted on Paypal. But now I'm almost sure. The Paypal account they banned now, I mean, they banned in 30 minutes after the person escalated the chargbacks to Paypal. I'm sure what happened is some monkey from Paypal looked at the message. He ran the URL through their database of blacklisted sites, and banned me immediately.

But then, I like this domain name. I won't let Paypal bully me! Like change my domain name. Fuck that. Fuck em. They don't get to bully me and force me to make such a change.

That's what I think anyway.



That's so true. I'm not accepting Paypal on my panel any more. I don't wanna go stealth, I don't wanna hide, I don't wanna do any of that shit.

If people want to deposit balance, we have Payoneer and Skrill and Perfectmoney and Bank transfer and credit card and crypto and a bunch of other options. If customers want to deposit money, they'll have to figure it out. I'm not playing cat and mouse with Paypal, and I'm not changing my domain name for Paypal, and I'm not changing my business for Paypal, fuck em!



Um, well, that was my initial reaction. But the person escalated the chargebacks to claims immediately, and Paypal suspended my account within 30 minutes. Since I was already suspended, I decided to fight them. I'll write what happened at the bottom of this post.



Yeah, that's true about Paypal and TOS, and the rest of it.

-------------------------------

So guys, here's what happened...

1) Scammer opens 6 chargebacks worth $1,280 total (Item Not Received)
2) Scammer escalates each chargeback to a claim within 15 minutes (so that Paypal reviews them)
3) Paypal permanently suspends my account within 30 minutes
4) Being suspended, I respond to each of the chargebacks
5) The next day 5 of the chargebacks get refunded, and 1 gets changed to (Item Not As Described)
6) I respond to the 1 chargeback that was now changed
7) Paypal actually sides with me on the last one (The following case was found in your favor. Any hold on this transaction has been removed)

So I lost $1,130 from the 5 chargebacks, and I kept the one for $150.

Now, here's the thing...

I'm actually allowed to appeal the outcome of the 5 chargebacks. I have 7 days to do it.

Should I?
Click to expand...
Wow, I'm mad already!

Why don't you report his accounts on the social media sites. He made you lose your PayPal account, now he'll lose his social media accounts. Sounds about right to me.
 
SEOMadHatter said:
I'm not telling you not to do it. But realistically it's not going to do anything. Even if (and that's a big if) other panels took that kind of time to look into an individual customer he could just use a different name/email.

You're understandably going to be angry but if you can set that emotion aside for a moment you're better off just getting on with your work.

You're right - if you have an edge over resellers then you might get enough willing to use other payment methods. If not, reach out to the resellers and offer them API access. Then you have fewer payment issues to bother with and it's their PayPal they're dealing with.

Oh, and I'm assuming you know this but I think some of the other payment processors have similar issues when it comes to social network services. And, sadly, that shit is only going to get worse.
Click to expand...

Some panels do. I have a friend who runs a panel, and he has a list of blacklisted emails and whatnot. He checks new customers through his list and stuff. I do too, generally speaking. But I don't keep a list, just Google fuck it :p

I'd love to let it go man and just get on with my work. But I can still appeal the 5 chargebacks that Paypal refunded him, and I'm itching to appeal them. I can't let it go until it's over and done, know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I'm aware of other payment processors having similar issues. Maybe I should just go full crypto and call it a day. No refunds, no chargebacks, no high-risk bullshit, no suspensions... and no taxes :D

rafark said:
Wow, I'm mad already!

Why don't you report his accounts on the social media sites. He made you lose your PayPal account, now he'll lose his social media accounts. Sounds about right to me.
Click to expand...

He's a reseller. Facebook page likes. I don't know if any of the pages he bought likes for are his, but I doubt it.

But now his customers are fair game :)
 
Mr. Burnham said:
Phone call Paypal, they trust sellers that phone call way more. Also, try to see if the buyer was a seoclerk reseller or something like that. If he resold the services, write down the info of all the social media accounts that he sent followers/views/likes to. Then tell the scammer that if he doesn't close the disputes, you will message the owners of the accounts and convince them to dispute the payments they did to him. If he says he doesn't care, then message his buyers and fuck his paypal.
Click to expand...
This involves some work but is a good way to get back on the person who did this. OP, your experience scares me as well and I just wish crypto to get back to normal prices and more commonly used for transactions.
 
krishnaverma said:
This involves some work but is a good way to get back on the person who did this. OP, your experience scares me as well and I just wish crypto to get back to normal prices and more commonly used for transactions.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wish crypto was more actively and widely used. I always like getting crypto paments, nothing to worry about :)
 
Scorpion Ghost said:
Yeah, I wish crypto was more actively and widely used. I always like getting crypto paments, nothing to worry about :)
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It is not that it is hard to use crypto, all it needs is a well written tutorial and an incentive to make buyers buy from you even though you are asking for crypto. Maybe emphasize that you are a direct supplier and not a reseller thus you can really guarantee for the delivery of your services. Imo, anyone that wants to pay with Paypal, has the possibility of a charge back in the back of his mind. They may not actually do this, but it stems from a lack of trust.
 
krishnaverma said:
This involves some work but is a good way to get back on the person who did this. OP, your experience scares me as well and I just wish crypto to get back to normal prices and more commonly used for transactions.
Click to expand...
It is not so scary if you get some experience with these. A lot of the scammers make money by reselling to seoclerk or other communities and by pulling the ig/yt influencer scam where they send fake likes to shopify newbies.
 
I do a mixture of Quickbooks and PayPal. But anything over a $2,500 transaction and I will stick to Quickbooks invoicing and payment processing because, well, I actually trust Quickbooks.

PayPal honestly cannot be trusted with large transactions. They lost that privilege a long time ago. Like I think it has been since 2008 or so that they lost that trust.

Scorpion Ghost said:
But for digital products and services, how do you give proof of delivery?
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I'm not sure how panels would do it. But I did have one dispute a while ago and all I had to do was provide reports from Google Ads showing the campaign for the client and it wasn't an issue winning the dispute.
 
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Scorpion Ghost said:
Some panels do. I have a friend who runs a panel, and he has a list of blacklisted emails and whatnot. He checks new customers through his list and stuff. I do too, generally speaking. But I don't keep a list, just Google fuck it :p

I'd love to let it go man and just get on with my work. But I can still appeal the 5 chargebacks that Paypal refunded him, and I'm itching to appeal them. I can't let it go until it's over and done, know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I'm aware of other payment processors having similar issues. Maybe I should just go full crypto and call it a day. No refunds, no chargebacks, no high-risk bullshit, no suspensions... and no taxes :D



He's a reseller. Facebook page likes. I don't know if any of the pages he bought likes for are his, but I doubt it.

But now his customers are fair game :)
Click to expand...

That sucks big time. But in that case, the clients shouldn't have to pay.
 
Scorpion Ghost said:
I'm actually allowed to appeal the outcome of the 5 chargebacks. I have 7 days to do it.
Click to expand...

Considering that you won one of the disputes and if you think you don't have much to lose I would appeal it.

In each appeal, you can reference the case ID from the dispute you won and tell PayPal of the similar circumstances. State that the buyer filed 6 disputes and then escalated them all to claims after only 15 minutes and that he is systematically trying to scam you while using PayPal as a medium for doing so.

Stress the point that the buyer is using PayPal as a platform to scam and his behavior indicates this and that his PayPal account history could indicate this as well. I've done this before and noticed that PayPal takes more notice when they are brought closer to the issue rather than being disassociated as just a middle man payment processor.

The days of using PayPal for selling SSM services are numbered so it's good that you're fucking them off and utilizing other processors, even if they aren't as easy and convenient for the customer.
 
GhostMint said:
Considering that you won one of the disputes and if you think you don't have much to lose I would appeal it.

In each appeal, you can reference the case ID from the dispute you won and tell PayPal of the similar circumstances. State that the buyer filed 6 disputes and then escalated them all to claims after only 15 minutes and that he is systematically trying to scam you while using PayPal as a medium for doing so.

Stress the point that the buyer is using PayPal as a platform to scam and his behavior indicates this and that his PayPal account history could indicate this as well. I've done this before and noticed that PayPal takes more notice when they are brought closer to the issue rather than being disassociated as just a middle man payment processor.

The days of using PayPal for selling SSM services are numbered so it's good that you're fucking them off and utilizing other processors, even if they aren't as easy and convenient for the customer.
Click to expand...


He can't really "appel " the disputes, appel is just if there is a problem related to refund, once a dispute is closed,it can't be opened again
 
bartoska said:
He can't really "appel " the disputes, appel is just if there is a problem related to refund, once a dispute is closed,it can't be opened again
Click to expand...

You can appeal PayPal's decision if you disagree with it, which is what OP stated he can do.

Both the buyer and seller could have this option and I've done it and had it done to me before.
 
GhostMint said:
You can appeal PayPal's decision if you disagree with it, which is what OP stated he can do.

Both the buyer and seller could have this option and I've done it and had it done to me before.
Click to expand...

When you appel, you have something like " Why do you want to appeal " and the option you can select are " I already sent a refund..." " I have a tracking number"
Something like that, but you can't really ask for a second review for the dispute...
 
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