Altcoins are Shitcoins

VSYNC said:

It's on-topic because you tried to distance the importance of cryptography within the application of a cryptocurrency, and I was simply saying that it's a fundamental feature of cryptocurrencies. Your analogy with IT call centres is not applicable, IMO. That was all.

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LOL. You could not still produce one single reason why you think crypto currency is "backed" by mathematics or cryptography. You quoted me on that, and when I explained why you were wrong, you started with the usual mumbo jumbo. It's okay though. Feel free to believe whatever.

VSYNC said:

This doesn't match up with a claim that cryptocurrency isn't controlled by cryptography.. it's totally dependant on it, of course it's controlled by it.

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Playing with words?

Gogol said:

LOL. You could not still produce one single reason why you think crypto currency is "backed" by mathematics or cryptography. You quoted me on that, and when I explained why you were wrong, you started with the usual mumbo jumbo. It's okay though. Feel free to believe whatever.

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Sure I did - cryptographic hash functions. If you know what that is then you'll get what I mean, if you don't then quickly just google it and see what I mean.

You basically get all the data from the previous block and encrypt it using cryptography (hash function) which outputs a unique string, which is then stored in the next block along with the transaction data and others. That cryptographic hash protects the blockchain from manipulation - it's the same reason that non-financial blockchains are so secure.

Gogol said:

Playing with words?

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I think you think I'm trying to argue with you. Look I'll admit that I don't know everything about DLT, but I'm just being honest when I'm saying that your assessment of the value of cryptoassets is massively naive. Not that you are personally, but that you're looking at it from a very simplified and biased point of view.

I'm not playing with words - I meant what I said: you said that cryptocurrency isn't controlled by cryptography. I was just pointing out that it is not only controlled by it, but absolutely dependant on it. Without cryptography any cryptocurrency would immediately fail and go to $0.

Find some other reliable source that explains how blockchains work if you don't trust me. There's plenty of info online that is freely available and explains the exact same principles.

Gogol said:

Haha, I knew this was coming.

First, the technology has nothing to do with cryotocurrency being what it is. Blockchain is an awesome tech, and it can survive without shitcoins. I still do not get what "backs" shitcoins other than mumbo jumbo talks. Yeah, may be let it mature for another 100 years. We shall see. Right now, it is what it is.. A scam.

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Decentralization has no value to you? Blockchain is an awesome tech and yet the first currency to successfully make use of it is a scam? Do you even know what scams are?

Looking for scams? Check out beloved fiat currencies. Those are the real scams. Tell me what the dollar is backed by?

VSYNC said:

Sure I did - cryptographic hash functions. If you know what that is then you'll get what I mean, if you don't then quickly just google it and see what I mean.

You basically get all the data from the previous block and encrypt it with cryptography which outputs a unique string, which is then stored in the next block along with the transaction data and others. That cryptographic hash protects the blockchain from manipulation - it's the same reason that non-financial blockchains are so secure.


I think you think I'm trying to argue with you. Look I'll admit that I don't know everything about DLT, but I'm just being honest when I'm saying that your assessment of the value of cryptoassets is massively naive. Not that you are personally, but that you're looking at it from a very simplified and biased point of view.

I'm not playing with words - I meant what I said: you said that cryptocurrency isn't controlled by cryptography. I was just pointing out that it is not only controlled by it, but absolutely dependant on it. Without cryptography any cryptocurrency would immediately fail and go to $0.

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Look, crypto currency cannot be controlled by any authority. That's a good thing, and that's a bad thing at the same time. I used "backed" in the sense of "value"; not how the technology works. For example how USD or many country's currencies were/are being backed by Gold. It would be naive to say the currencies are backed by "paper" and "ink". Isn't it? So, stop sounding like you don't know what I am talking about.

Nubian Content said:

Decentralization has no value to you? Blockchain is an awesome tech and yet the first currency to successfully make use of it is a scam? Do you even know what scams are?

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Again, blockchain is not cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrency uses blockchain. Blockchain can be used in any industry for that matter.

Nubian Content said:

Looking for scams? Check out beloved fiat currencies. Those are the real scams. Tell me what the dollar is backed by?

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The US Government. They can totally stop the circulation of the existing bank notes if they want. Those notes would be deemed illegal after that. If you are talking about "gold" not being the decisive factor anymore, then you should be asking an economist or something. I am not into that, but I AM into tech and I know what blockchain/cryptocurrency is.

Only ones I'd hold out of those would be XTZ and ChainLink. Don't get too caught up with day-trading and trying to catch small moves. Zoom out, adopt a larger picture, see what Bitcoin is doing and trade accordingly. Holding for x number of years is also a good option can typically net greater returns. It's hard to time the market constantly. You can also dollar-cost average your and build a position long-term.

Gogol said:

Look, crypto currency cannot be controlled by any authority. That's a good thing, and that's a bad thing at the same time. I used "backed" in the sense of "value"; not how the technology works. For example how USD or many country's currencies were/are being backed by Gold. It would be naive to say the currencies are backed by "paper" and "ink". Isn't it? So, stop sounding like you don't know what I am talking about.

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LMAO the dollar isn't backed by gold and hasn't been so for a long time. No currency right now is backed by gold (except for maybe just one.)

They are all backed by the dollar which in turned is backed by the collective belief in the government that issues it and the people that use it. It's all one big fugue.

In the same way, Bitcoin is not backed by any commodity but by a belief in the underlying technology (substitute for the Fed, this time) and its immutability and it's limited supply and what it can actually do - which is bring about massive independence from government manipulations.

What can the dollar REALLY do? Tell me. Nothing. Bitcoin actually does something. And that will always have value. Even after all the whale sales. Why? Cos Bitcoin is the real "We the People."

Gogol said:

The US Government. They can totally stop the circulation of the existing bank notes if they want. Those notes would be deemed illegal after that. If you are talking about "gold" not being the decisive factor anymore, then you should be asking an economist or something. I am not into that, but I AM into tech and I know what blockchain/cryptocurrency is.

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Oh, the same US government that has been printing the paper out of thin air like it's nothing? Literally giving billions to big corporations? The value of $ is backed not by the US government, but by the BELIEF in that government, and most appropriately the Federal reserve, that they won't do stupid shit like print the money out of thin air like it's nothing. But wait, that's exactly what's happening.

Nubian Content said:

LMAO the dollar isn't backed by gold and hasn't been so for a long time. No currency right now is backed by gold (except for maybe just one.)

They are all backed by the dollar which in turned is backed by the collective belief in the government that issues it and the people that uses it. It's all one big fugue.

In the same way, Bitcoin is not backed by any commodity but by a belief in the underlying technology (substitute for the Fed, this time) and its immutability and it's limited supply and what it can actually do - which is bring about massive independence from government manipulations.

What can the dollar REALLY do? Tell me. Nothing. Bitcoin actually does something. And that will always have value. Even after all the whale sales. Why? Cos Bitcoin is the real "We the People."

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Did I not clear that out in that same post, that dollar isn't controlled by gold anymore? The problem with cryptocurrency is that the price is controlled by demand. As I said in a previous post in this thread, once all the whales dumps all the money; there will be unlimited supply; and no demand to keep the price. Until then, you might think it works. But in fact it is what it is, a scam. Even share market is better than that. Atleast you know which company you are investing into, and they provide you with profit/loss periodically.

Nubian Content said:

Oh, the same US government that has been printing the paper out of thin air like it's nothing? Literally giving billions to big corporations? The value of $ is backed not by the US government, but by the BELIEF in that government, and most appropriately the Federal reserve, that they won't do stupid shit like print the money out of thin air like it's nothing. But wait, that's exactly what's happening.

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Now, you got me there. I did tell you that I am not an economist. So, I am not the correct guy to answer this to you. What I can tell you is that it has worked for centuries. Not like for 10 years or something. As for printing money out of thin air, if they do that... the price of USD will come down. It is not that easy to do so afaik.

Gogol said:

Look, crypto currency cannot be controlled by any authority. That's a good thing, and that's a bad thing at the same time. I used "backed" in the sense of "value"; not how the technology works. For example how USD or many country's currencies were/are being backed by Gold. It would be naive to say the currencies are backed by "paper" and "ink". Isn't it? So, stop sounding like you don't know what I am talking about.

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If you're saying that cryptocurrency isn't "backed" by mathematics or cryptography in the same way fiat currencies used to be backed by gold, then I agree with you 150%.

The reason I agree with you is because that's an impossible statement - how could a currency be "backed" by an abstract concept like mathematics. You can't trade 6 cryptographies for $4 or 9 mathematics for $10, so yeah - I agree with that, it would be pretty ridiculous to disagree.

When you said that it's not "backed" by cryptography, it seemed infinitely more likely that you meant that the value of cryptocurrencies aren't ensured because of the application of cryptography. That statement I completely disagree with because the core reason that cryptocurrencies are even in existence is because of the mathematics and cryptography that modulates them.

I sounded like I didn't know what you were talking about because the thing you say you meant was so obvious that I disregarded it.

I guess it turns out we're in agreement though so all good.

Gogol said:

The problem with cryptocurrency is that the price is controlled by demand.

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All currencies are.

Nubian Content said:

All currencies are.

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Play the commodities market and you sill see this is true.

Gogol said:

Cryptocurrency is shit. Every coin is a scam. One is a bigger scam than the other. Same goes for BTC as well.

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Forex, stocks, etc too

Those big player creating uptrend chart to attract naive SnD trader and investor to pump their money.

Once they got the right spot for liquidity, they gonna eat your stop loss.

And yes, broker, bank, etc they all can see all your order book.

Where you put your stop loss, sell order, buy limit, buy stop etc
(they can avoid it)

That's why over 90% forex and stocks traders lose their money.

It is unethical, but LEGAL(for big corp).

So what's the point trading then if the odds against the trader. Yet nobody say forex and stocks are SCAM.

In forex you dint trade money, you trade CFD contract between you and the broker..

The whole financial system is SCAM after all...

The only different between crypto and forex, is the size of the market. Crypto market is still smaller and NEW, so it's very volatile.
With very small number of market maker / big players in this game compare to forex and stocks..

I believe by next few years.. more and more big player gonna jump in, and the market gonna be less volatile.

The best thing about crypto, is the existent of decentralize exchange platform..

meaning you can trade assets, without fear of SWAP, spreads, commission, overnight financing cost, expensive wd fees..
or broker don't want to pay your money, account getting freeze and many more...

fuking kewl...

Crypto definitely is the future for those that think...

It is like a combination between bank + money exchange + forex + stocks + contracts all in single decentralize technology.
Fking insane!

PinguSpy said:

Forex, stocks, etc too

Those big player creating uptrend chart to attract naive SnD trader and investor to pump their money.

Once they got the right spot for liquidity, they gonna eat your stop loss.

And yes, broker, bank, etc they all can see all your order book.

Where you put your stop loss, sell order, buy limit, buy stop etc
(they can avoid it)

That's why over 90% forex and stocks traders lose their money.

It is unethical, but LEGAL(for big corp).

So what's the point trading then if the odds against the trader. Yet nobody say forex and stocks are SCAM.

In forex you dint trade money, you trade CFD contract between you and the broker..

The whole financial system is SCAM after all...

The only different between crypto and forex, is the size of the market. Crypto market is still smaller and NEW, so it's very volatile.
With very small number of market maker / big players in this game compare to forex and stocks..

I believe by next few years.. more and more big player gonna jump in, and the market gonna be less volatile.

The best thing about crypto, is the existent of decentralize exchange platform..

meaning you can trade assets, without fear of SWAP, spreads, commission, overnight financing cost, expensive wd fees..
or broker don't want to pay your money, account getting freeze and many more...

fuking kewl...

Crypto definitely is the future for those that think...

It is like a combination between bank + forex + stocks + contracts all in single decentralize technology.
Fking insane!

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What you are saying is not gonna happen in a day. Wait for 15 years may be (probably much much more than that). If all the governments start legalizing crypto, it might be a different case in future. It also needs to get more streamlined. For example, a common man has no fking idea how to buy, or pay using crypto. That's a huuuuge problem.

Gogol said:

What you are saying is not gonna happen in a day. Wait for 15 years may be (probably much much more than that). If all the governments start legalizing crypto, it might be a different case in future. It also needs to get more streamlined. For example, a common man has no fking idea how to buy, or pay using crypto. That's a huuuuge problem.

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Yes that's the problem, crypto aint grandma/grandpa even teen user friendly.
Its complicated.

Also since the assets got no middle man, if gonna be a problem if the person suddenly die.
Because he cannot transfer the assets to his family.

If crypto community can fix both of this problem..

Crypto definitely gonna explode...

I bet they already working on it..

As for now this book will help them

PinguSpy said:

Yes that's the problem, crypto aint grandma/grandpa even teen user friendly.
Its complicated.

Also since the assets got no middle man, if gonna be a problem if the person suddenly die.
Because he cannot transfer the assets to his family.

If crypto community can fix both of this problem..

Crypto definitely gonna explode...

I bet they already working on it..

As for now this book will help them

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Yeah, and it can be streamlined using hardware wallets. Nobody needs to know the private key. There just needs to be a better "UX"ed wallet which takes care of everything. Something that may be has a camera, which can scan for addresses (perhaps a QR code). All the banks should allow fiat to be converted into crypto and vice e versa. This way, the crypto can be streamlined in a few decades.

Hardware wallets can also take care of the "inheritance" problem. Whoever owns the wallet, owns the money. So, if somebody dies; his family inherits the wallet.

At the core though, crypto is and will still be a scam.

Gogol said:

Yeah, and it can be streamlined using hardware wallets. Nobody needs to know the private key. There just needs to be a better "UX"ed wallet which takes care of everything. Something that may be has a camera, which can scan for addresses (perhaps a QR code). All the banks should allow fiat to be converted into crypto and vice e versa. This way, the crypto can be streamlined in a few decades.

Hardware wallets can also take care of the "inheritance" problem. Whoever owns the wallet, owns the money. So, if somebody dies; his family inherits the wallet.

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Really solid ideas

Gogol said:

At the core though, crypto is and will still be a scam.

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(It was all going so well )

VSYNC said:

Really solid ideas


(It was all going so well )

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Sorry man, you cannot buy me on that. Not atleast for the next 15 years, or until cryotocurrency becomes streamlined (and a bit controlled).

Gogol said:

Sorry man, you cannot buy me on that. Not atleast for the next 15 years, or until cryotocurrency becomes streamlined (and a bit controlled).

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No probs, let's see what the next 15 years holds If all goes well the next couple of years should be pretty eventful, but then again, who knows.

Good thread.

Back and forth on the subject matter is good for all of us to learn.

Nice thread but it seems to mix Bitcoin up with other altcoins and to me thats not a fair comparison. There is no CEO for bitcoin and that sets it apart from the rest.

I do think its wrong to say cryptocurrencies are backed by cryptography though. Its maybe playing semantics but its more accurate to say its secured by cryptography. I mean pretty much every decent block chain out there is a merkle tree.

As for value, isnt it fair to say that with proof of work the miners are converting electricity into a tradable asset?

That gives it a baseline value as they obviously dont want to sell at a loss. Just watch the hash rate fall after the halving which will reduce the difficulty which in turn will reduce the cost to mine. Proof of stake is a good idea an all that but its still unproven long term. If Ethereum finally switch and it holds up then I might change my view on that.

But if you are talking about some pre-mined coin or token then what gives that value other than belief in the "tech"? This is my main problem with a lot of the altcoins - they are just startups that used ICO money to get off the ground.

I have to agree with @Gogol up there that still after all these years the UX is horrible. Anyone who actually takes their coins off an exchange and uses them will tell you that if they are being honest. Lightening invoices are a step in the right direction but not there yet IMO. Until the UX is fixed up and made idiot proof then we will remain at the mercy of the whales on price as the only thing that kills a whale is volume.