Avoiding the military

[JustUs]

But you have time to scan and upload pictures of textbooks...

I am so glad that you do not know the difference between a text book and a reference book. If you want, I can scan some actual text books from my early college days in the 80's. If we divide the age of those books in two, then they are still older than Jazzc.

I am not really interested in capping sessions. This is why I disengaged from Jazzc.

 

[GreyKnight]

Military is where stupid people go to become even more stupid. Is like the university of stupid. I realize some people here might have served in the military or even have a military career but i stand my position on this. You MUST be stupid to fucking go and enroll as volunteer or allow yourself to get enrolled into a system who's main purpose is to KILL PEOPLE. If you're going to give me the "defend the country and loved ones" speech better skip it or you will prove me beyond any doubt you are in fact stupid. As a matter of fact I have more respect for mercenaries who do this as a job and they are not delusional to think this is something good or they're serving the greater good. If you go and kill people because you like that at least you make it as a choice for what it is not for the BS you're being fed.

The environment in the military is so fucked up that even if you're not completely retarded and brainwashed to start with, you will end up like that due to peer pressure and the crap they fed into your mind. If you're unlucky enough to actually ever go to a war zone you will see it's not like in the movies. There are no heroes. Just stupid folks that die and stupid folks that survive and have nightmares or at least a fucked up life from then on. Why? Because you allowed somebody to make decisions for you and you gave him your life and your mind. And for what? So they can make the world a worse place by spreading death, pain and hate even further.

To the question of how you skip military. In any way you can, preferably the easiest one. There are lots of people in your country who did it. Ask around for specifics. In most cases bribes work well. Certain medical conditions work too and some of them you can fake. If you're really serious about finding a way, you will find it.

I don't know from where you came from, or what do you experience, or if your post is just a sad generalization.

Military Drafts
You do understand that some countries in the world are so damn tiny that they need every available manpower to defend themselves, right?
While maybe you are so enamored with the "mind-scrubbing force" of the vast US Army, there exist a lot of nation-states in the world that NEEDS a military to defend herself.

I will just name three of them. South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan.
South Korea has a huge rival in the North that even through conscription, still outnumbers South Korea army in a big margin.
Taiwan is outnumbered hundreds over by their rival in China.
Singapore is outnumbered over by their rival Indonesia and Malaysia, though in a far less tense stance than the above countries.
Surely, if you are citizens of these three countries, you need a measure of self-defense?

While you think that the military existed only to spread pain and death, what happens if these three countries don't have an adequate military?
Yes, some countries use their military arm to spread death and pain, America came to mind, but that doesn't mean the ALL MILITARY in this world is out to spread pain and death!
Some of you has suggested, correctly, the use of professional army, which is a great solution. But this solution only applies to big countries, who have huge manpower. What about countries that are outnumbered in a tactical sense? Singapore are so tiny that their neighbor's capital city is bigger than them. Should the leaders of this tiny nations just remove the draft, for the sake of removing slavery, at the cost of their nation's independence?

I personally agrees with drafting for some countries that TACTICALLY needs it, such as South Korea, Switzerland, Singapore, Israel, and Taiwan. But for countries like Brazil and USA? Hell no. Yes, it's a form of slavery, but I see it as form of an acceptable evil, for the sake of the country.

Do you know why Switzerland gave all the military gears to the people after completing their duty? It's not because Switzerland is a "good-guy" country, or a country that have high level of freedom. It's because it makes it easier to mobilize in times of war, and should mobilization fail to complete, it will turn every single house in Switzerland into a fortress, manned by professional soldiers.

On Draftees as Cannon Food
On every gun debate, I see Switzerland frequently, touted as a nation who owns a lot of personal firearms but still live in relative peace. Yet I wonder why the argument of "every Swiss citizen is a cannon food by their government" never surface. That's because Switzerland soldiers are not cannon fooder.

I have told you before, that in Singapore, people joining for compulsory drafts are sent up to units according to their physical strength and potential. The best people, though junior they are, are sent up as special operations soldiers and paratroopers. I bet in every modern conflict paratroopers and special operations soldiers are not cannon foods. Yes, the average one will be sent up as soldiers, or foot soldiers, but they are hardly cannon fooder. After all, wars are won by foot infantry. The training of these average guys are great the equipment is top-of-the-line, so calling the draftees cannon fooders are baseless assumptions.

After all, cannon fooder is a term for the human wave tactics, which will not be done by most countries right now. Even more with small countries such as Singapore and Taiwan, their manpower is a valuable commodity too. With the advances of technology and more accurate weapon system, in true combat no modern soldier is a cannon fooder.

 

[frostthesnowman]

I feel bad for you man it least in brazil there are beautiful babes with amazing curves maybe if you join the military you will be able to pick up girls.

 

[procam]

More like a huge circle jerk..

I feel bad for you man it least in brazil there are beautiful babes with amazing curves maybe if you join the military you will be able to pick up girls.

 

[s0ap]

I am so glad that you do not know the difference between a text book and a reference book. If you want, I can scan some actual text books from my early college days in the 80's. If we divide the age of those books in two, then they are still older than Jazzc.

I am not really interested in capping sessions. This is why I disengaged from Jazzc.

Post whatever you want dude. Though you are the now the one who appears to be waffling and justifying.

Knuth is an interesting case. Like most professionally trained mathematicians and other pioneers of the computing field, he is a somewhat unimpressive developer in the practical sense and has an admitted difficulty with any architectures that are not von Neumann ideal. His disregard for multiple cores and unit tests is pretty consistent with someone facing a reality that does not fit their model of the universe.

 

[JustUs]

Post whatever you want dude. Though you are the now the one who appears to be waffling and justifying.

Knuth is an interesting case. Like most professionally trained mathematicians and other pioneers of the computing field, he is a somewhat unimpressive developer in the practical sense and has an admitted difficulty with any architectures that are not von Neumann ideal. His disregard for multiple cores and unit tests is pretty consistent with someone facing a reality that does not fit their model of the universe.

Thank you for the validation of my original statement that Computer Science is applied mathematics.

 

[madoctopus]

I don't know from where you came from, or what do you experience, or if your post is just a sad generalization.

Military Drafts
You do understand that some countries in the world are so damn tiny that they need every available manpower to defend themselves, right?
While maybe you are so enamored with the "mind-scrubbing force" of the vast US Army, there exist a lot of nation-states in the world that NEEDS a military to defend herself.

I will just name three of them. South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan.
South Korea has a huge rival in the North that even through conscription, still outnumbers South Korea army in a big margin.
Taiwan is outnumbered hundreds over by their rival in China.
Singapore is outnumbered over by their rival Indonesia and Malaysia, though in a far less tense stance than the above countries.
Surely, if you are citizens of these three countries, you need a measure of self-defense?

While you think that the military existed only to spread pain and death, what happens if these three countries don't have an adequate military?
Yes, some countries use their military arm to spread death and pain, America came to mind, but that doesn't mean the ALL MILITARY in this world is out to spread pain and death!
Some of you has suggested, correctly, the use of professional army, which is a great solution. But this solution only applies to big countries, who have huge manpower. What about countries that are outnumbered in a tactical sense? Singapore are so tiny that their neighbor's capital city is bigger than them. Should the leaders of this tiny nations just remove the draft, for the sake of removing slavery, at the cost of their nation's independence?

I personally agrees with drafting for some countries that TACTICALLY needs it, such as South Korea, Switzerland, Singapore, Israel, and Taiwan. But for countries like Brazil and USA? Hell no. Yes, it's a form of slavery, but I see it as form of an acceptable evil, for the sake of the country.

Do you know why Switzerland gave all the military gears to the people after completing their duty? It's not because Switzerland is a "good-guy" country, or a country that have high level of freedom. It's because it makes it easier to mobilize in times of war, and should mobilization fail to complete, it will turn every single house in Switzerland into a fortress, manned by professional soldiers.

On Draftees as Cannon Food
On every gun debate, I see Switzerland frequently, touted as a nation who owns a lot of personal firearms but still live in relative peace. Yet I wonder why the argument of "every Swiss citizen is a cannon food by their government" never surface. That's because Switzerland soldiers are not cannon fooder.

I have told you before, that in Singapore, people joining for compulsory drafts are sent up to units according to their physical strength and potential. The best people, though junior they are, are sent up as special operations soldiers and paratroopers. I bet in every modern conflict paratroopers and special operations soldiers are not cannon foods. Yes, the average one will be sent up as soldiers, or foot soldiers, but they are hardly cannon fooder. After all, wars are won by foot infantry. The training of these average guys are great the equipment is top-of-the-line, so calling the draftees cannon fooders are baseless assumptions.

After all, cannon fooder is a term for the human wave tactics, which will not be done by most countries right now. Even more with small countries such as Singapore and Taiwan, their manpower is a valuable commodity too. With the advances of technology and more accurate weapon system, in true combat no modern soldier is a cannon fooder.

I will answer for both points you raise in one answer because it applies to both as they're related. Bottom line is, war is bad. everybody knows and understands why this is so. However, if you do have an army and soldiers, then ffs use people who WANT to be soldiers and enjoy that. There are lots of people who like the military life, training, etc. Conscripts are not particularly passionate about military, they just have to go. That's what makes them cannon fooder. That and the fact their training is that of a cannon fooder.

I am glad u mentioned the Swiss army. I find them to be in a way a model. The reason they give the weapons to the soldiers and full gear to take at home is because in WW2 they had been imposed upon not to have weapons and so on and then they got invaded. So now, they train the soldiers and give them the gear exactly like you said to have quick reaction in case shit happens. However, the details of the military service in Switzerland are different than in other places. And the low crime rate is a good indicator of that. In other words, people are responsible. Since military has to exist, then it should at least be done properly. Better have 100 great soldiers than 1000 idiots with weapons.

So yes, I agree with you that not all armies are equal in terms of mentality, training and human quality and yes I guess a my generalization was a bad idea because of that. However, most armies are full of brainwashed idiots who would be cannon fooder in case of a conflict. And when I talked about brainwashing I was not referring just to indoctrination but also to the social brainwashing that comes from the environment that is the military.

If the military would be about professional training (like with spec ops and paratroopers you give as example) and the details that matter would be covered, and the officers would also be quality people, then doing military service would actually allow men to grow as people. But the way it is in most cases it just makes them dumber. When you get conscripts you get a lot of dumb people because that's how people are statistically. Also, it's not just training or quality training but also a lot of wasted time, or at least not optimally used. And they don't try to help the people become smarter or educate them a bit.

In a way, military service is like school. It is after all a specialized education system. And just as the educational system, in most countries it sucks. Hence the problem.

I have not done military service but from all the people (quite a few) that have and I know, NONE of them said it was a constructive experience for them. Only thing they considered positive was the fact you had to be organized (make bed, polish shoes, keep clothes clean, etc) which formed good habits. On the other side, they did said most of their coleague soldiers were borderline idiots. The following stuff was present in all stories - many people who had to write on their palm left/right because they didn't knew which was which. People who would pay for thread, needle and buttons because they thought they had to pay for it though was free (my buddy tricked them and was selling free shit to them). People that were overly-aggressive. Superiors that had them do retarded shit just so they had a laught - e.g. orders like: rub the concrete with a toothbrush until concrete dries up. This WHILE it was raining. Shit like this happens in most armies because people are not so smart, extremely bored and don't really like being there.

 

[GreyKnight]

I will answer for both points you raise in one answer because it applies to both as they're related. Bottom line is, war is bad. everybody knows and understands why this is so. However, if you do have an army and soldiers, then ffs use people who WANT to be soldiers and enjoy that. There are lots of people who like the military life, training, etc. Conscripts are not particularly passionate about military, they just have to go. That's what makes them cannon fooder. That and the fact their training is that of a cannon fooder.

I am glad u mentioned the Swiss army. I find them to be in a way a model. The reason they give the weapons to the soldiers and full gear to take at home is because in WW2 they had been imposed upon not to have weapons and so on and then they got invaded. So now, they train the soldiers and give them the gear exactly like you said to have quick reaction in case shit happens. However, the details of the military service in Switzerland are different than in other places. And the low crime rate is a good indicator of that. In other words, people are responsible. Since military has to exist, then it should at least be done properly. Better have 100 great soldiers than 1000 idiots with weapons.

So, I take it that you agree with the "Switzerland way" to draft their soldiers? I bet the Switzerland boys also will not be passionate with the military when they are drafted in. While the details of the military in Switzerland varies with other countries, some countries do have a good reason for drafting, or have a good training and equipment for the draftees. Then, the problem is not about the military drafting itself, it's about why and how the military drafting is done.

What about the cannon fooder? You state that the conscripts are cannon fooder due to their lack of passion and lack of training. I have to agree with you, but I have to say that this does not apply to all countries. Though passion can't be helped, some nations, such as Switzerland, Singapore, and South Korea do put a lot of good quality training for their conscripts, in my opinion, making the conscripts from these countries NOT cannon fooder.

A prime example of cannon fooder is maybe the North Korean or Chinese conscripts. I would say that they are passionate enough (due to propaganda) but do their lack of training, they are just cannon fooder. We have seen their actions, success and failure in Korean War. I for one thinks that a soldier is cannon fooder or not depends on the level of his training and equipment.

So yes, I agree with you that not all armies are equal in terms of mentality, training and human quality and yes I guess a my generalization was a bad idea because of that. However, most armies are full of brainwashed idiots who would be cannon fooder in case of a conflict. And when I talked about brainwashing I was not referring just to indoctrination but also to the social brainwashing that comes from the environment that is the military.

If the military would be about professional training (like with spec ops and paratroopers you give as example) and the details that matter would be covered, and the officers would also be quality people, then doing military service would actually allow men to grow as people. But the way it is in most cases it just makes them dumber. When you get conscripts you get a lot of dumb people because that's how people are statistically. Also, it's not just training or quality training but also a lot of wasted time, or at least not optimally used. And they don't try to help the people become smarter or educate them a bit.

In a way, military service is like school. It is after all a specialized education system. And just as the educational system, in most countries it sucks. Hence the problem.

I agree with you, some countries have good conscription program, some countries have bad conscription program. We can't say that all conscription program is bad, or all conscription program is good. I supported conscription system at this moment because I experience it in some good country, but if I experience it in some other country my opinion on this matter will change.

I have not done military service but from all the people (quite a few) that have and I know, NONE of them said it was a constructive experience for them. Only thing they considered positive was the fact you had to be organized (make bed, polish shoes, keep clothes clean, etc) which formed good habits. On the other side, they did said most of their coleague soldiers were borderline idiots. The following stuff was present in all stories - many people who had to write on their palm left/right because they didn't knew which was which. People who would pay for thread, needle and buttons because they thought they had to pay for it though was free (my buddy tricked them and was selling free shit to them). People that were overly-aggressive. Superiors that had them do retarded shit just so they had a laught - e.g. orders like: rub the concrete with a toothbrush until concrete dries up. This WHILE it was raining. Shit like this happens in most armies because people are not so smart, extremely bored and don't really like being there.

The orders to rub the concrete is really childish, I wonder why the drill sergeant does that.
Yes, some people (and a lot of drill sergeants) do have "superiority complex", they treat others as dirt and they treat themselves like some God.

 

[Logician]

Great debate fellas. Interesting arguments on both sides. It got a little boring for me towards the end, but I'd say this was the quote of the thread:

There 's nothing to be thankful for. You aren't doing me any favours. You provide a service, you get paid for it and that 's that. I do find it interesting how most military people get this part confused. I suppose it feels warm in the belly to feel special, so no need for rational thinking.

 

[madoctopus]

So, I take it that you agree with the "Switzerland way" to draft their soldiers? I bet the Switzerland boys also will not be passionate with the military when they are drafted in. While the details of the military in Switzerland varies with other countries, some countries do have a good reason for drafting, or have a good training and equipment for the draftees. Then, the problem is not about the military drafting itself, it's about why and how the military drafting is done.

Both how is done and as a principle. But if you must have it, at least have it done properly. Is still a form of slavery and imposing something against one's will.

What about the cannon fooder? You state that the conscripts are cannon fooder due to their lack of passion and lack of training. I have to agree with you, but I have to say that this does not apply to all countries. Though passion can't be helped, some nations, such as Switzerland, Singapore, and South Korea do put a lot of good quality training for their conscripts, in my opinion, making the conscripts from these countries NOT cannon fooder.

Any soldier is expandible. Even a general. They're just not all expandable as easily. In other words you don't send a spec ops team to die for shit. You sacrifice them for something a bit more important.

I agree with you, some countries have good conscription program, some countries have bad conscription program. We can't say that all conscription program is bad, or all conscription program is good. I supported conscription system at this moment because I experience it in some good country, but if I experience it in some other country my opinion on this matter will change.

I don't support conscription because first of all is against one's will. Is more similar to going to prison than to being free. Just doesn't have a negative social connotation. On top of that, I don't support it because conflicts don't just happen for resources or whatever, they happen because of idiots in positions of power. So why would masses die for that?! If country A invades country B, it is irrelevant if B has an army or not because the entire scheme is shit from the beginning because the invasion happened. So problem is not with A or B armies but with the people who are pulling the strings in the back. And if masses wouldn't be sheep they'd simply refuse to fight at all (both A and B). They'd just say "fuck you" to whoever is in charge and not fight. But they're sheep and easily controlled. Yes, obviously countries go to war and obviously masses don't go "fuck you, we're not fighting". So in a way my argument is totally useless from a practical perspective, however it is not incorrect or bad.

Masses must be kept above revolution level regardless who is in charge. And they are never supported or even have it easy to have full lives. So whether you live in X country is not that important if you're ruled by X people, by X people who do what Y people tell them to do or by Y people directly. For the masses is roughly the same - wake up, go to job (produce), get back, eat/watch TV/have fun (consume), go to sleep. In produce-consume cycle they don't produce for themselves. The vast majority of the production goes under the control of a few and to sustain the system. Whet they receive themselves (the masses) is just enough to sustain their life at the level where they keep the cycle going. The shit is the same everywhere, what is different is the details. And obviously the details can be bad enough for some (3rd world) and good enough for others (e.g. civilized countries). A conflict might be run by fanatics/evil people/whatever (e.g. ethnic wars) but the mastermind is of a "blackhat" dude who's just setting shit up so he can benefit regardless who's winning or loosing.

So I don't have a simple, straight or clear argument or answer or alternative to how it is now because there's none. Only way for this to change is the world to evolve as a whole. As I said, from a practical perspective everything I say and how i see the world is useless. But is not wrong.

 

[jazzc]

Thank you for the validation of my original statement that Computer Science is applied mathematics.

Your logical processing units are having a bad day again?

 

[jazzc]

This is why I disengaged from Jazzc.

Disengaging! So this how people call putting the tail down and running away fast these days.

 

[SombodyLoLz]

 

[hopeloz]

Hey man, fellow Brazilian here.
I served the Aeronautica (Air Force like) and i can say, first are you in a big city? If now, just get a Comprovante de Residencia (Proof of residence) in a big city and when they ask if you want to join, just say no.
To get in it was a bit harsh i might say in here, Santa Catarina, because the number of people who said they wanted to go in was bigger than the spots they had.
So just go into the days, don't get nervous, just play chill, get to speak with a couple guys around, asking if they want to serve, stay around a group.
To get in, i had to pass for 4 weeks tests, first day was a simple selection, with a dentist to check if you have all the teeths, a written test (play dumb but not that much, it will help you not get in). Next day i hade blood pressure exam, got on underpants (alone, no problems like in a closet or something), they check you for a couple seconds, ask to turn, and that's it. Other days you will do blood exams and stuff.
But to get in you will be called in all days, some people get their release in the first day, it all depends on if you want to go or not, they are pretty chill with that. Just say no, play along and it will be fine, today our military in here is pretty poor, also if you have a job or earnings paying more than you will earn there, they tend to let you go.

Don't worry it will be fine.
But as a matter of opinion, it was one of the best and worst thing to happen to me.
Learned a lot, military was the father i didn't had. But also as a vegan/animal rights person, it was hard to keep my meals in there, and that's it. Hope the best for you

 

[SombodyLoLz]

Hey man, fellow Brazilian here.
I served the Aeronautica (Air Force like) and i can say, first are you in a big city? If now, just get a Comprovante de Residencia (Proof of residence) in a big city and when they ask if you want to join, just say no.
To get in it was a bit harsh i might say in here, Santa Catarina, because the number of people who said they wanted to go in was bigger than the spots they had.
So just go into the days, don't get nervous, just play chill, get to speak with a couple guys around, asking if they want to serve, stay around a group.
To get in, i had to pass for 4 weeks tests, first day was a simple selection, with a dentist to check if you have all the teeths, a written test (play dumb but not that much, it will help you not get in). Next day i hade blood pressure exam, got on underpants (alone, no problems like in a closet or something), they check you for a couple seconds, ask to turn, and that's it. Other days you will do blood exams and stuff.
But to get in you will be called in all days, some people get their release in the first day, it all depends on if you want to go or not, they are pretty chill with that. Just say no, play along and it will be fine, today our military in here is pretty poor, also if you have a job or earnings paying more than you will earn there, they tend to let you go.

Don't worry it will be fine.
But as a matter of opinion, it was one of the best and worst thing to happen to me.
Learned a lot, military was the father i didn't had. But also as a vegan/animal rights person, it was hard to keep my meals in there, and that's it. Hope the best for you

You choose the airforce, nice one (that's the one I'll choose if I'm forced to go).

Btw, I obvioulsy earn more than they pay, but how can I proove that if I have no tax return (imposto de renda), filled here? (since all my money is stored in US/Europe).

Thanks for your time BTW, I know I'll be fine, everyone elses apparently don't.

 

[JustUs]

Your logical processing units are having a bad day again?

I gift you one education in logic:

 

[ThreadKiller]

Hey OP.

Since you already stated that the Brazilian army is a broke-ass army that gives no proper training, there is absolutely no need for you to join it. Plenty of time to pick up a rifle or learn how to make an IED if you do get invaded.

Also, you have no natural enemies. The biggest enemy you have, as has been shown by the latest NSA scandals, is the USA. And they have nukes, and all the cool gear

If you can't get away from this stuff, have you thought about the conscientious objector part? Can't you work in a hospital or in the fire brigade for a year or something like that? That way you can learn much more discipline and actually be a force for good. And also lay down the basics for a future career.

Good luck OP. And thanks to jazzc for consistently having laid down the good points in this thread.

 

[SombodyLoLz]

Hey OP.

Since you already stated that the Brazilian army is a broke-ass army that gives no proper training, there is absolutely no need for you to join it. Plenty of time to pick up a rifle or learn how to make an IED if you do get invaded.

Also, you have no natural enemies. The biggest enemy you have, as has been shown by the latest NSA scandals, is the USA. And they have nukes, and all the cool gear

If you can't get away from this stuff, have you thought about the conscientious objector part? Can't you work in a hospital or in the fire brigade for a year or something like that? That way you can learn much more discipline and actually be a force for good. And also lay down the basics for a future career.

Good luck OP. And thanks to jazzc for consistently having laid down the good points in this thread.

I can't select where in the ARMY I'll go on that deep of a level.

 

[Alpha.]

So you've read some urban myths about your countries armed forces online and now they all suck? Stop whining and serve your time... It sounds like you need a bit of manning up goddammit!

 

[seo4life]

Just go to shrink and say you feel like a woman, that you have female tendencies, that worked for me like 20 years ago.....