Google Stadia, will it change how we play games forever?

"So far" is the keyword. You can't really compare the upcoming services with those services. These new services will be done by the big internet giants and not by some company no-one heard of before, which simply doesn't have the resources to make something like this work.
Sony and Nvidia are not no-name companies, but they still have the same latency bottlenecks. And since latency is a physical limitation of distance, the only way Google can get around that is by placing servers at each ISP node.

It's a multi-year journey as MS put it. There's really no point in comparing the bandwidth requirements with what we have now, because that's not what we will have a few years from now, when these new services will be able to gain momentum potentially.
I remember when Google Fiber was going to put traditional ISPs out of business, but now it's a dead project. Google Glass was supposed to bring augmented reality to daily life, but it never even made it out of beta. The Google self-driving car was supposed to make driving obsolete, but other companies have already surpassed them despite starting years later.

Google has a habit of over-promising and under-delivering, and right now Stadia is nothing more than an overhyped press release.

I have no doubt that someone will bring cloud computing into the mainstream eventually, but that's a multi-decade project even by the most optimistic estimates, and it will likely come from a company with experience in that field, not some relative newcomer who doesn't even have a working proof-of-concept.
 
Sony and Nvidia are not no-name companies, but they still have the same latency bottlenecks. And since latency is a physical limitation of distance, the only way Google can get around that is by placing servers at each ISP node.


I remember when Google Fiber was going to put traditional ISPs out of business, but now it's a dead project. Google Glass was supposed to bring augmented reality to daily life, but it never even made it out of beta. The Google self-driving car was supposed to make driving obsolete, but other companies have already surpassed them despite starting years later.

Google has a habit of over-promising and under-delivering, and right now Stadia is nothing more than an overhyped press release.

I have no doubt that someone will bring cloud computing into the mainstream eventually, but that's a multi-decade project even by the most optimistic estimates, and it will likely come from a company with experience in that field, not some relative newcomer who doesn't even have a working proof-of-concept.
The service of Sony and Nvidia is nowhere close to a decade old, i wasn't talking about those, when i mentioned unknown companies. But even those are limited from this or that aspect and they're different from the upcoming services, especially from Stadia with its full cross-platform support and that you don't need gaming hardware anymore, plus the Youtube plug. Big difference.

Google has failed projects, which big company doesn't? They have many successful ones too, the opportunity is undoubtedly there to turn Stadia into the next one.
Very few people believed in Tesla at first, the first Model S models were shipped less than 7 years ago. Look at Tesla now. They are revolutionarizing a whole industry and they did it in less than a decade in a sector, which is very traditional with strong lobbies. Now every car manufacturer is forced to come up with their own electronic models unless they would prefer to be left behind.

Tesla was a complete new comer and they manage to achieve this. Calling Google a new comer is a bit steep. Methinks they have something to do with the internet, they have something to do with streaming, they have something to do with cloud, they have something to do with going mobile.
Again, it's not just Google. It's everyone who counts nowadays. Them, MS, Amazon, Steam. Amazon and Google both (will) have the resources to make this work on a large scale.

A multi-decade project? How fast things change in our era, it won't take that long for sure.
If you think that it will take decades, why do you worry about bandwidth consumption and lag? By that time you'll have three Google servers in your kitchen and probably you won't even be interested in gaming anymore. :)

No working proof of concept? I think Google has more than that already.
Specs and performance testing:
The hardware what Google will use for this is 75% more powerful than the Xbox One X, per instance. The guy in the video tried the latest Assassins Creed, it loaded 4 times faster than on Xbox One X. In-game loading will be faster too obviously. And surprise, surprise, the latency wasn't worse than on Xbox One X.

This is the present stage, imagine this a few years from now.

I think, we overtalked this and we clearly have a different opinion. It's an early stage to say anything for certain.
 
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The service of Sony and Nvidia is nowhere close to a decade old, i wasn't talking about those, when i mentioned unknown companies. But even those are limited from this or that aspect and they're different from the upcoming services, especially from Stadia with its full cross-platform support and that you don't need gaming hardware anymore, plus the Youtube plug. Big difference.
Nvidia started their cloud gaming program in 2010, nine years ago, and they are currently rolling out support for non-gaming devices.

From the beginning, the primary bottleneck has been latency, and even infinite bandwidth won't fix that. With the current networking technology, the round trip is approaching the speed of light, which is an eternity in computing terms. If Google has somehow managed faster-than-light networking, I seriously doubt they would waste it on something as trivial as a gaming platform.

No working proof of concept? I think Google has more than that already.
Specs and performance testing:
It's trivial to have streaming within the same building over a controlled network, the Steam Link already does that with the same specs as a Raspberry Pi. When they manage to show a demo a couple thousand miles away from their server farm, with no noticeable input lag, I'll consider that to be a valid proof-of-concept.
 
Nvidia started their cloud gaming program in 2010, nine years ago, and they are currently rolling out support for non-gaming devices.

From the beginning, the primary bottleneck has been latency, and even infinite bandwidth won't fix that. With the current networking technology, the round trip is approaching the speed of light, which is an eternity in computing terms. If Google has somehow managed faster-than-light networking, I seriously doubt they would waste it on something as trivial as a gaming platform.


It's trivial to have streaming within the same building over a controlled network, the Steam Link already does that with the same specs as a Raspberry Pi. When they manage to show a demo a couple thousand miles away from their server farm, with no noticeable input lag, I'll consider that to be a valid proof-of-concept.
Nvidia is not a giant company, they don't have the resources, neither the reach to become industry leading in something like this, at least not on their own.
But really, are we arguing about past dates?

I think it was established that cloud gaming is not new, it wasn't invented by Google, but their version is radical and have the potential to change the industry as we know it now.

The "issue" i see here, is that you compare the needs/requirements of a future service with what we have now and present knowledge. Microsoft clearly said that its research teams are “creating ways to combat latency” via advanced network techniques combined with video encoding and decoding." And Google is on it too, don't think that they won't expand their global infrastructure and come up with solutions to combat latency. The first one of those solutions is how the controller works. "It (the controller) will work with the Stadia service by connecting directly through Wi-Fi to link it to a game session in the cloud", instead of linking it to the client.

We agree to disagree.
 
But really, are we arguing about past dates?
Most of these services are still being developed today (Geforce Now is still in closed beta), and they will be direct competitors when this project eventually launches. And so far, I'm not seeing any particularly unique features that aren't already offered by others.

The "issue" i see here, is that you compare the needs/requirements of a future service with what we have now and present knowledge.
The speed of light isn't something you can just bypass with a new compression algorithm, it is a physical limitation on the lowest possible latency. Compared to a local console or PC, that theoretical minimum is tens of thousands of times higher, and quite noticeable.

I'm not saying this project will be a failure, or that it won't be the market leader in cloud gaming, I'm just saying that it's not going to be the huge economic revolution that some are hyping it up to be. It's a gaming platform, not a new realm of physics.

Will it expand the gaming market? Absolutely. Will it put Steam out of business? I seriously doubt it. Will it make furniture ownership obsolete? No.
 
Native rendering via powerful PC will still be the "master race" XD I don't believe google is gonna replace my 2.5k PC for this :P especially when you can't control the desktop to actually also do some 3D rendering on there (I presume).
 
This would look good but unless you have an unlimited bandwidth
 
I remember when Google Fiber was going to put traditional ISPs out of business, but now it's a dead project. Google Glass was supposed to bring augmented reality to daily life, but it never even made it out of beta. The Google self-driving car was supposed to make driving obsolete, but other companies have already surpassed them despite starting years later.

Google has a habit of over-promising and under-delivering, and right now Stadia is nothing more than an overhyped press release.

I think you're missing the point with a lot of things Google does. Their employees work on personal projects and are encouraged to do so. I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere about it and that a lot of new technology they introduce is from these hobby projects. If the 'parent' company gets involved with a niche it shines a light for other 'child' companies to prosper as well.

Not every Tom, Dick and Harry can afford the front runner so they go looking for the alternatives, where do they do this? Google search. So the real investment is a global PSA for people to go to THEIR search engine and advertising network and creating the funnel. That alone pushes the healthy competition narrative. Therefore supplying investment in adverts, new technology and new ideas to come to fruition from other companies who didn't think certain things were achievable. It isn't that they don't care if it fails, it's more along the lines of it an extention to their existing business model and marketing budget.
 
It seems that the system could also turn off users fast. Anyone that lives in a major city that is using a wired internet connection and wired M/KB would crush all the people that live farther away from a Data Center and are using a Phone with wifi controller and 4G/5G mobile internet. In addition to the latency differences, a 6" 1080p screen is going to suck compared to a 4K 24" inch or higher screen.
 
It seems that the system could also turn off users fast. Anyone that lives in a major city that is using a wired internet connection and wired M/KB would crush all the people that live farther away from a Data Center and are using a Phone with wifi controller and 4G/5G mobile internet.
I'm not sure, if i understand this properly.

The rumored minimum bandwidth requirement of Stadia to stream/play in 4K @ 60 fps is 30 Mbit/s (they mentioned 25 Mbit/s at first, later they corrected it). This bandwidth is widely available even now.
And why would cloud gaming crush anything? Does HD/4K media streaming, Youtube, Twitch etc. crush anything now? Or if it's not what you meant, then what?

Bandwidth needs to be increased, latency decreased, no question about that, but they're on it already.

You're doing the same what Stavro does and comparing the requirements of a future service with what's available now.
I started out with a 1 Mbit/s DSL connection in 2002, now i'm using a 100 Mbit/s 4G connection for a few years now. So in 15 years the speed increased 100 times. The 1 Mbit/s connection wasn't the best available at that time, similarly how a 100 Mbit/s connection isn't the best now. Where i live, for fixed broadband it's somewhat below average, for mobile broadband, it's twice as fast as the average. My country is the 7th in fixed broadband ranking and the 17th when it comes to mobile broadband speed, just to put this into perspective. As i mentioned previously in the thread, if i wanted, i could switch to an unmetered 2 Gbit/s connection for something like $40/month or to a 1 Gbit/s connection for around $25/month. It's not something, which will be available at a far away future date, it's here at my place of residence for more than a year now, it's reality. And as you saw, my country isn't the absolute winner of any speed category.
A x100 speed increase happened in 15 years. There's no need to replicate this stunt in the next decade, a lot less will suffice.
a 6" 1080p screen is going to suck compared to a 4K 24" inch or higher screen.
Big screens won't go anywhere, traditional gaming hardware will. You won't be forced to play on your phone, but the possibility will be there and looking at the state of mobile gaming, there will be a demand for this on mobile too. Tablets will be better for this purpose, if you want a better user experience, while enjoying the benefits of being mobile.
 
The issue is not internet speed, its the latency, and latency will always be an issue as it gets worse the further you are away from the servers. If the servers are just in major cities, anyone further away will be at a disadvantage compared to those in those cities. 5G will still have a higher latency than wired internet, it's not going to be the solution if you want to be competitive. Input latency from the choice of controllers (wired vs wireless) adds another factor. And people playing on a device with a smaller resolution and screen size will have a disadvantage from that as well when they play those with large screens with a much higher resolution.

It's for casual gamers that are not even serious about gaming right now.
 
And why would cloud gaming crush anything? Does HD/4K media streaming, Youtube, Twitch etc. crush anything now? Or if it's not what you meant, then what?
In competitive games, anyone closer to the servers will have lower input lag than those far away from the servers. This is already an issue with some games, streaming the inputs directly will only amplify the issue.

You're doing the same what Stavro does and comparing the requirements of a future service with what's available now.
It doesn't matter if every device has terabit internet and every ISP node had theoretically perfect routers, the major limitations are within the laws of physics itself.

If you're driving a car in an area where the maximum speed limit is 60 miles per hour. If you go down a two lane road, it will take about one minute to travel one mile. If you go down an eight-lane highway, it will still take about one minute to go one mile. The number of lanes (bandwidth) does not increase the overall speed, it only allows more traffic to pass through the route at the same time.

Right now, that proverbial speed limit is the speed of light, and current technology is fairly close to that limitation. Breaking that barrier isn't going to happen with some new compression algorithm by a game developer, it's going to require a theoretically impossible technology that completely replaces the physical cables currently used to send the data.
 
Stadia is just rushing something to market first before some other company releases a better version of it.

It's nothing revolutionary. It's a natural evolution that we are not yet ready for.
 
The issue is not internet speed, its the latency, and latency will always be an issue as it gets worse the further you are away from the servers. If the servers are just in major cities, anyone further away will be at a disadvantage compared to those in those cities. 5G will still have a higher latency than wired internet, it's not going to be the solution if you want to be competitive. Input latency from the choice of controllers (wired vs wireless) adds another factor. And people playing on a device with a smaller resolution and screen size will have a disadvantage from that as well when they play those with large screens with a much higher resolution.

It's for casual gamers that are not even serious about gaming right now.
People playing on different devices with different screen sizes is something that will be their choice, no-one will force them to play on this or that device. If they don't want to play on their phones, they don't have to. They can use a tablet or play at home on their TV exclusively. Simple as that.
It can also be that there will be optimization, so when you play multiplayer, primarily you'll be put together with people who use similar devices, so they have the same advantages or disadvantages. We don't know this yet.
The cross-platform ability is somehow a disadvantage in your reading, when in fact it opens up a whole new market, a large one. Not just for Google, but for game developers, video game companies too. It's not too irresponsible for me to say, that there's a big interest to make this new version of cloud gaming work.

Casual vs. competitive players. Which market is bigger?
Latency differences are there in casual and competitive online playing now, it is not cloud gaming specific. Latency is not picky like that.

And right back at ya when worrying about available titles. It didn't occur to me at first and i'm not sure, how i missed it, but in their GDC demo they use the latest Assassin's Creed for demonstration, which is a Ubisoft game, so more than likely Ubisoft is already on board. id Software is already on board with Doom Eternal as the first game ever releases on the platform and: "Google says more than 100 studios already have dev kits for Stadia, and more than 1,000 creatives and engineers are already working on titles that will work on the service."
Google built their own gaming studio and they brought several talented person on board: Jack Buser (former senior director at Sony’s game streaming unit and leader of the social efforts of the PlayStation platform), Richard Marks (former senior research engineer at Sony, who participated in the development of the PlayStation VR headset and Move controller), Jade Raymond (founder of Ubisoft Toronto, former executive producer at Ubisoft, co-creator of Assassin's Creed, Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell, Watchdogs, founder of EA Motive Studios) and last but not least Phil Harrison (former corporate vice president of Microsoft Game Studios known as Xbox Game Studios now, former British corporate executive and representative director of Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc., former executive vice president of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe, former president and chief operating officer at Infogrames, former non-executive director of Atari, former advisory at Gaikai, one of the first game streaming/cloud gaming company).
Reading this list, i think it's clear that Google is not joking or bluffing.

In competitive games, anyone closer to the servers will have lower input lag than those far away from the servers. This is already an issue with some games, streaming the inputs directly will only amplify the issue.


It doesn't matter if every device has terabit internet and every ISP node had theoretically perfect routers, the major limitations are within the laws of physics itself.

If you're driving a car in an area where the maximum speed limit is 60 miles per hour. If you go down a two lane road, it will take about one minute to travel one mile. If you go down an eight-lane highway, it will still take about one minute to go one mile. The number of lanes (bandwidth) does not increase the overall speed, it only allows more traffic to pass through the route at the same time.

Right now, that proverbial speed limit is the speed of light, and current technology is fairly close to that limitation. Breaking that barrier isn't going to happen with some new compression algorithm by a game developer, it's going to require a theoretically impossible technology that completely replaces the physical cables currently used to send the data.
As you said, latency is different for online gamers, it's not something, which is cloud gaming specific.

In ideal situation the latency can even be better with Stadia than the latency now with traditional online gaming. Why? Because with the Stadia controller you are directly connected to the game session on the server, all of the players are, there are no clients between the controller and the server. That's a lot of back and forth the signal doesn't have to travel. This is entirely different from how controllers work today. Obviously your distance from the server will still matter, because it's just one thing to send instructions via your controller directly to the server, you'll need the video stream too lol, so the distance will still matter, but not more than now. It's just that you'll be connected to a Stadia server and not a Steam server, in which case you will either get lucky and there will be a server closer to you than now or not.

The main issue with latency regarding cloud gaming is not that it's different for players, the issue is that it's too high for now. If they decrease it with whatever solution they come up with (e.g. more optimized video encoding and decoding, how the Stadia controller work, infrastructure developments), the differences will also be smaller. Smaller latency maximum, smaller possible latency differences. It would be nice, but we don't have to beat the speed of light, at least not for this purpose.

"...the fact that we have a very highly distributed architecture around the world. We talked about 7,500 edge node locations and they’re all connected by Google’s proprietary backbone. Think of it as a piece of fiber optic cable that’s spinning around the world carrying that data and only that data. That allows us to deliver an incredible experience and performance that hitherto no other company has been able to deliver. No, we can’t beat the speed of light, but we can cheat it enough that we can deliver a very, very high performance experience." - Phil Harrison, source: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/21/...rview-cloud-gaming-streaming-service-gdc-2019

Stadia is just rushing something to market first before some other company releases a better version of it.

It's nothing revolutionary. It's a natural evolution that we are not yet ready for.
?

Microsoft introduced their own version before Google. Yes, cloud gaming is not new, it exists as Playstation Now, Steam Link, just to mention better and operating services. There are several services, operating, discontinued or still in beta, but none of those have/had what it takes to change a whole industry, either because they lack the resources, they lack the reach or they simply aren't revolutionary enough, aren't a big change compared to gaming as we know it now.

Google's version is different in major points. I don't see anywhere else full cross-platform support and that you don't need a gaming hardware, it's not something, which is too widespread as of now, is it? That's already two very strong points. Google has Android, they power 3/4th of smart devices. Google has Youtube, which equals to reach, the biggest at that. You can start playing a game by hitting a button on Youtube, while watching a gameplay and you can start playing from the point where the gameplay is at. You can also stream your gameplay with a click of a button on your controller back to Youtube. The controller has a Google Assistant button too, so if you get stuck anywhere in a game, the help is a click away. I personally never liked voice assistants and it's cheating practically, but the possibility will be there. The controller is directly linked to the game session in the cloud, which decreases latency. State Share, Crowd Play. It's already a long ass post, so i don't expand on those, look them up, if you want.
All of these bring new things to the table and when you look at all this as a package, it's a whole new experience.
If this doesn't sound revolutionary enough to you, what does?! I wouldn't like to be the person, who needs to be in the position to impress you. lol

No-one rushes anything, the new services by the internet giants are not even in public beta stage yet.
Maybe it won't be Google who brings the change, maybe it will be Amazon or someone else, but this new version of cloud gaming will change gaming how we know it now, only the when is a question.

The infrastructure and some other details might not be fully ready just yet, people are very much ready.

Inb4 anyone accusing me of working for Google or getting paid by them. I simply see their offering as the strongest out of those we know about now. We know that Microsoft doesn't want to replace the Xbox, so their service will co-exist with it, which is already not that enticing. Amazon is a big question, their version is still in the making, but they have Twitch, Alexa and vast resources similarly to Google, so they can come up with an up to par service, both in features and scale.
 
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I think this is the future of gaming, but it is coming "too soon". The internet connections/latency/stability is simply not ready for this yet. Same goes for the whole infrastructure. It often reminds me of the movie "Ready Player One", where they can connect any time they want, every where they want.
 
Me is ready, come at me Google Pedigreedia

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You need very fast internet speed & very stable internet connection/ping.

Unlimited bandwidth/data.

Kind of overkill though, to remote play game using master race pc from far.
 
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