Where to hire really good web developers?

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pavan said:
Straight from wikipedia
A living wage is defined as the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs

This is what you want to pay for web development it's a clear exploitation. If any web developer wants to earn a living wage would better off be working in his own country. Outsourcing doesn't mean you have to pay same salaries like US but also doesn't mean you pay living wage based on the country.

You pay different salaries for european developers and asian developers and then complaint about their skills. You get what you pay for. It has nothing to do with any specific country or a region.

I am sure you have hired many developers and had several bad experiences. It's just because of your hiring techniques.
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I've paid more to Indian dev than I usually pay local in-house devs or even on upwork, hourly rate was $45/h.

Paid more than $5k. Lost this money because I got delivered unfinished work, false promises, constant bullshiting about ill siblings, and other excuses why work could not move forward.

All this shit coming from a guy with good profile reviews.

And the lying, oh man, it's like unbelievable sometimes, you caught them red-handed and they just keep pushing their bullshit story.

So if you never hired people from those geographical regions, do not try to shit on wages or whatever. It's the mentality and culture.

Only once I have worked with a guy who was a good coder, honest and paid attention to detail. He was pleasant to work with, his attitude was in place, never lied even if fucked up, and god how cheap he was - like $10/hour or so. So there ARE some gems that can be found, but STATISTICALLY, you will lose money, that's what it is in this business and be sure to take that in mind when hiring.

I promised not to contribute here anymore, but it's sooo hard when bullshit like this is posted. And blame it on hiring techniques, wow, just amazing.
 
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z00rf said:
I've had good luck with upwork when looking for a developer around $15p/hr or so. If you want even better quality you can use companies like Crossover or use linkedin and find people in Eastern Europe. Ukraine, Russia, Belarus & Poland tend to have the best talent in those regions
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Out of curiosity what kind of developers are you hiring for $15 hour? that sounds like designers and not developers and if they are developers what is their main stack? I have a job post up right now on upwork for fullstack dev cheapest offer is 15$ an hour from an Indian but everyone else is charging 20$+ other indians and Russians/Ukrainians. The agency im about to test out if i close this sales(pray for me) will be charging me 15$ for design and 25$ for development.
 
2020vision said:
Out of curiosity what kind of developers are you hiring for $15 hour? that sounds like designers and not developers and if they are developers what is their main stack? I have a job post up right now on upwork for fullstack dev cheapest offer is 15$ an hour from an Indian but everyone else is charging 20$+ other indians and Russians/Ukrainians. The agency im about to test out if i close this sales(pray for me) will be charging me 15$ for design and 25$ for development.
Click to expand...
You can always bargain for prices, hourly rates mentioned on profiles usually are with small overhead so when client is asking for a discount, they can do it.
 
lucky.sparks said:
I've paid more to Indian dev than I usually pay local in-house devs or even on upwork, hourly rate was $45/h.

Paid more than $5k. Lost this money because I got delivered unfinished work, false promises, constant bullshiting about ill siblings, and other excuses why work could not move forward.

All this shit coming from a guy with good profile reviews.

And the lying, oh man, it's like unbelievable sometimes, you caught them red-handed and they just keep pushing their bullshit story.

So if you never hired people from those geographical regions, do not try to shit on wages or whatever. It's the mentality and culture.

Only once I have worked with a guy who was a good coder, honest and paid attention to detail. He was pleasant to work with, his attitude was in place, never lied even if fucked up, and god how cheap he was - like $10/hour or so. So there ARE some gems that can be found, but STATISTICALLY, you will lose money, that's what it is in this business and be sure to take that in mind when hiring.

I promised not to contribute here anymore, but it's sooo hard when bullshit like this is posted. And blame it on hiring techniques, wow, just amazing.
Click to expand...
I think you should contribute more here (i will gladly take more advice :D ) you are extremely knowledgeable and when i pmed you last year for advice almost everything you said has been somewhat true but maybe avoid mentioning nationality so you dont get banned or this thread gets closed. People always whine no knowledge is shared here anymore so would be great if threads like these stay open
 
lucky.sparks said:
You can always bargain for prices, hourly rates mentioned on profiles usually are with small overhead so when client is asking for a discount, they can do it.
Click to expand...
Yep I probably can but tbh these guys have kept it professional with me so just to build the initial relationship I will pay the rate without negotiating if everything goes smooth for next project I might negotiate price but tbh it looks like the going rate for fullstack dev is around 20$+ on upwork currently
 
2020vision said:
Yep I probably can but tbh these guys have kept it professional with me so just to build the initial relationship I will pay the rate without negotiating if everything goes smooth for next project I might negotiate price but tbh it looks like the going rate for fullstack dev is around 20$+ on upwork currently
Click to expand...
Yes, and it's a good price, because when working hourly rates - they use upwork tracker and that shit is dope.

Consider this, you do not pay for:
- break/smoke/toilet/lunchtime, you get to pay for time spent on your project with minute accuracy
- taxes, all are included in the price
- social media breaks

there is a downside tho, you have to keep your hand on the pulse all the time and be very aware of how time is spent on the project, in best case scenario - you need an inhouse tech person who can overseer the process because otherwise time can be eaten up by unnecessary work done by the devs.

another downside when working by the timer is - you will not have a precise ballpark of the expenses you will be facing. all estimates usually are shit, they are never precise.

if you are working with a fixed fee, then for the most of the time it's the best price/outcome ratio as if they fuck up the estimation, they have to cover it from their side, just to be sure you are very clear about this before starting the contract.

and other pitfall that needs to be taken in account - who will pay for debugging and bug fixing? In my company, we covered this as a quality guarantee, but on upwork when you run with the hourly tracker - probably you will pay for the bugs and fixing them. so be careful about this as it can very easily go into a full shitshow when your project is delivered in a timely manner, but then you spend weeks fixing bugs and .. paying for them.. guaranteed bad time.
 
lucky.sparks said:
I've paid more to Indian dev than I usually pay local in-house devs or even on upwork, hourly rate was $45/h.

Paid more than $5k. Lost this money because I got delivered unfinished work, false promises, constant bullshiting about ill siblings, and other excuses why work could not move forward.

All this shit coming from a guy with good profile reviews.

And the lying, oh man, it's like unbelievable sometimes, you caught them red-handed and they just keep pushing their bullshit story.

So if you never hired people from those geographical regions, do not try to shit on wages or whatever. It's the mentality and culture.

Only once I have worked with a guy who was a good coder, honest and paid attention to detail. He was pleasant to work with, his attitude was in place, never lied even if fucked up, and god how cheap he was - like $10/hour or so. So there ARE some gems that can be found, but STATISTICALLY, you will lose money, that's what it is in this business and be sure to take that in mind when hiring.

I promised not to contribute here anymore, but it's sooo hard when bullshit like this is posted. And blame it on hiring techniques, wow, just amazing.
Click to expand...
Bullshit wrapped around good English. I am sure many people would believe you and praise you.
First of all you wouldn't (or maybe shouldn't if you have good hiring skills and techniques) have gone for outsourcing if you could hire someone inhouse at a lesser rate.

You paid 45$ per hour and over 5k$ overall. So based on that it's around 30 days of work if not more. It took you 30 days to realize the guy was bullshitting with you and yet you paid all this while? Still you think you are good with hiring and highly experienced in this field.

Hiring techniques statement wasn't even directed to you earlier but I don't understand why you guys are defending each other.

I feel like you have some personal issues with Asian countries which is fine just keep your personal life and professional life separate. Don't judge people based on Race or their country.

I promised not to contribute here anymore.
Click to expand...

It's best that you don't because you are not contributing anything either way.

I am not gonna entertain your bullshit any further. You are entitled to have your own opinion.
 
pavan said:
Bullshit wrapped around good English. I am sure many people would believe you and praise you.
First of all you wouldn't (or maybe shouldn't if you have good hiring skills and techniques) have gone for outsourcing if you could hire someone inhouse at a lesser rate.

You paid 45$ per hour and over 5k$ overall. So based on that it's around 30 days of work if not more. It took you 30 days to realize the guy was bullshitting with you and yet you paid all this while? Still you think you are good with hiring and highly experienced in this field.

Hiring techniques statement wasn't even directed to you earlier but I don't understand why you guys are defending each other.

I feel like you have some personal issues with Asian countries which is fine just keep your personal life and professional life separate. Don't judge people based on Race or their country.



It's best that you don't because you are not contributing anything either way.

I am not gonna entertain your bullshit any further. You are entitled to have your own opinion.
Click to expand...
Mentioning race and calling me lowkey racist is dumb. Trying to teach me how to hire or outsource is even dumber. Let's not make this thread toxic, if you have experience in the field from the same standpoint as me, please - you are welcome to share. But do not just blindly rant and make assumptions of what you are clearly clueless.

It's the STATISTICS you should look up to, not the country, race or ethnicity.

https://blog.hackerrank.com/which-country-would-win-in-the-programming-olympics/
I wasn't who made up this thing, so don't blame on me those facts.
 
lucky.sparks said:
Yes, and it's a good price, because when working hourly rates - they use upwork tracker and that shit is dope.

Consider this, you do not pay for:
- break/smoke/toilet/lunchtime, you get to pay for time spent on your project with minute accuracy
- taxes, all are included in the price
- social media breaks

there is a downside tho, you have to keep your hand on the pulse all the time and be very aware of how time is spent on the project, in best case scenario - you need an inhouse tech person who can overseer the process because otherwise time can be eaten up by unnecessary work done by the devs.

another downside when working by the timer is - you will not have a precise ballpark of the expenses you will be facing. all estimates usually are shit, they are never precise.

if you are working with a fixed fee, then for the most of the time it's the best price/outcome ratio as if they fuck up the estimation, they have to cover it from their side, just to be sure you are very clear about this before starting the contract.

and other pitfall that needs to be taken in account - who will pay for debugging and bug fixing? In my company, we covered this as a quality guarantee, but on upwork when you run with the hourly tracker - probably you will pay for the bugs and fixing them. so be careful about this as it can very easily go into a full shitshow when your project is delivered in a timely manner, but then you spend weeks fixing bugs and .. paying for them.. guaranteed bad time.
Click to expand...
It's definitely something i'm aware of and something i noted last time you mentioned it to me, my guys are willing to take on projects on a fixed price but the this current project im hoping to close out on, we will be taking onboard an existing web app that needs needs to be completed I'd say 80% of it is already complete only thing that needs to be done is to change the logic a bit when making orders and add a few other easy features. I'm not a developer but I've done some development even studied it at university so luckily for me I know the basics at least and I'm able to spot a bullshitter and will be able to keep a close eye.

What your describing regarding ballpark of expense is spot and currently going through it now, as mentioned the web application is pretty much complete but the owner wants a quote for how many hours it will take to complete it and i'm still waiting on these guys to give me a rough estimate so I can send the details on to the owner.
 
2020vision said:
It's definitely something i'm aware of and something i noted last time you mentioned it to me, my guys are willing to take on projects on a fixed price but the this current project im hoping to close out on, we will be taking onboard an existing web app that needs needs to be completed I'd say 80% of it is already complete only thing that needs to be done is to change the logic a bit when making orders and add a few other easy features. I'm not a developer but I've done some development even studied it at university so luckily for me I know the basics at least and I'm able to spot a bullshitter and will be able to keep a close eye.

What your describing regarding ballpark of expense is spot and currently going through it now, as mentioned the web application is pretty much complete but the owner wants a quote for how many hours it will take to complete it and i'm still waiting on these guys to give me a rough estimate so I can send the details on to the owner.
Click to expand...
Overtaking an existing project is a high risk for the company doing the development. There can be many underwater stones, always put at least 30-40% overhead of the hours the devs will estimate you. I ended up putting 100% to our own inhouse devs and even my own estimates, everything we estimated was automatically multiplied by two and only then presented to the client.
 
lucky.sparks said:
Overtaking an existing project is a high risk for the company doing the development. There can be many underwater stones, always put at least 30-40% overhead of the hours the devs will estimate you. I ended up putting 100% to our own inhouse devs and even my own estimates, everything we estimated was automatically multiplied by two and only then presented to the client.
Click to expand...
I saw a practice of multiplying dev estimates by 3. But for inexperienced ones this could be even x4. Sometimes juniors would not be able to deliver whatever they've promised after weeks of being late. The guy who ran the company would get constant messages from clients why it is so slow. Then he fired them all one by one.

Anyways, this topic is a little bit tough. I have been wondering lately and maybe you know the answer due to your long experience. What do you think is the best way to find a client if I have 0 proven track record and everything I have done at my job is behind NDA?

I realize I can build 3 or 4 apps for my own needs and then use them in my portfolio, but that will take months. Any other idea someone?

I badly want to get those $25 or $30 per hour cause it fits my standards.
 
lucky.sparks said:
Avoid Indian, Pakistan, and similar, even if the price is good, you probably already know what will be the outcome.
Click to expand...
+1 ... I hired 5 different guys from those countries and they are just worst of the worst. Pure garbage
 
crnack said:
I saw a practice of multiplying dev estimates by 3. But for inexperienced ones this could be even x4. Sometimes juniors would not be able to deliver whatever they've promised after weeks of being late. The guy who ran the company would get constant messages from clients why it is so slow. Then he fired them all one by one.

Anyways, this topic is a little bit tough. I have been wondering lately and maybe you know the answer due to your long experience. What do you think is the best way to find a client if I have 0 proven track record and everything I have done at my job is behind NDA?

I realize I can build 3 or 4 apps for my own needs and then use them in my portfolio, but that will take months. Any other idea someone?

I badly want to get those $25 or $30 per hour cause it fits my standards.
Click to expand...
Honestly just lie and create a fake portfolio everyone else is doing this. I myself had cold feet trying to start my web development agency overthinking and worrying too much
 
2020vision said:
Honestly just lie and create a fake portfolio everyone else is doing this. I myself had cold feet trying to start my web development agency overthinking and worrying too much
Click to expand...
Seriously everyone is faking it? I saw it was like "presented very nicely". Like companies websites would have full case studies with some crazy presentation.
Yeah, overthinking is taking place. Too much talking lately.

I have this virus of being an employee in my head which tells me "I have to really prove my commercial experience". Not just prove, but prove it in a way that will astonish everyone. Which clearly is impossible. So it's just my mental game and it's a fairly easy one to solve.
But I have 7 years of experience in work overall and almost 2 years in commercial development. So I guess I will be able to handle a lot.
If not, I will simply find some help or just hand off the project.
 
crnack said:
Seriously everyone is faking it? I saw it was like "presented very nicely". Like companies websites would have full case studies with some crazy presentation.
Yeah, overthinking is taking place. Too much talking lately.

I have this virus of being an employee in my head which tells me "I have to really prove my commercial experience". Not just prove, but prove it in a way that will astonish everyone. Which clearly is impossible. So it's just my mental game and it's a fairly easy one to solve.
But I have 7 years of experience in work overall and almost 2 years in commercial development. So I guess I will be able to handle a lot.
If not, I will simply find some help or just hand off the project.
Click to expand...
yes, you fake it till you make it.

And you lie the fuck out about your experience and skills but make sure you do not overpromise what you can't do.

yjvOtoR
 
crnack said:
Seriously everyone is faking it? I saw it was like "presented very nicely". Like companies websites would have full case studies with some crazy presentation.
Yeah, overthinking is taking place. Too much talking lately.

I have this virus of being an employee in my head which tells me "I have to really prove my commercial experience". Not just prove, but prove it in a way that will astonish everyone. Which clearly is impossible. So it's just my mental game and it's a fairly easy one to solve.
But I have 7 years of experience in work overall and almost 2 years in commercial development. So I guess I will be able to handle a lot.
If not, I will simply find some help or just hand off the project.
Click to expand...
well maybe not literally everyone but a lot of people are faking it and succeeding if you have experience there is no way you should not be able to succeed. Always do your best after that whatever happens happens
 
lucky.sparks said:
yes, you fake it till you make it.

And you lie the fuck out about your experience and skills but make sure you do not overpromise what you can't do.

yjvOtoR
Click to expand...
If that was what Richard Branson would say and do, certainly I can.

2020vision said:
well maybe not literally everyone but a lot of people are faking it and succeeding if you have experience there is no way you should not be able to succeed. Always do your best after that whatever happens happens
Click to expand...
Yeah, but I can conclude you can tell a lot that is true, but it must be truth on steroids. Like people are doing during interviews.
If employees can do it, then why companies cannot? Afterall it's all about having a limited liability. ;)
 
crnack said:
I have worked for a small software company for a while.
They fired 2 Hindi people in 6 months since the start.
They were looking for developers in the 12th month of their existence.
They encountered Hindi people. When they were talking to each other, the Hindi people didn't say a word of truth.
To every question they were asked about their experience, they would ask a minute or two while being muted.
They supposedly Googled everything and hence the waiting time.
Their microphone quality was completely unacceptable. Noises in the background and more.
So in 3 cases, 3 Hindi developers were worse than domestic junior EU devs.
Click to expand...

This is the most annoying attribute of significant number of them that I encountered.

It seems like THEY are always trying to deceive you just to get hired.
 
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