What the hell is this COVID about?

t2van said:
No @VSYNC point is I think.

If you die in a car crash tomorrow. You are included in the COVID death count. But did Covid kill you or the car crash?

There is no clear definition between them. However there is not when it comes to the death figure being reported.
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And that's what I mean.
"People rarely die with only one underlying disease."

And it's happening every day, since 1000's of years.
But now, when covid became "famous", people are scared.

And as I said: There's definitely a virus. But it's probably not an super deadly virus and we don't need to CLOSE EVERYTHING to survive. And the thread is about the politics (somehow stupid) decisions. For me, it looks like maybe 99% scared people are politics. And it's strange :)
 
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kvvni said:
And that's what I mean.
"People rarely die with only one underlying disease."

And it's happening every day, since 1000's of years.
But now, when covid became "famous", people are scared.

And as I said: There's definitely a virus. But it's probably not an super deadly virus and we don't need to CLOSE EVERYTHING to survive. And the thread is about the politics (somehow stupid) decisions. For me, it looks like maybe 99% scared people are politics. And it's strange :)
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what is your argument? We just went over this in another post. Covid already has killed TWICE as much as flu, WITH QUARANTINE and other measures.
It could be much much bigger
 
ChillerNiller said:
what is your argument? We just went over this in another post. Covid already has killed TWICE as much as flu, WITH QUARANTINE and other measures.
It could be much much bigger
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cancer 10x more , still we have poisons in food, water.
 
ChillerNiller said:
Read my post above.
THIS IS HOW DISEASES WORK
People rarely die with only one underlying disease.
Those who have good health and no health problems don't die and the immune system fights off most diseases.
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So you're happy to claim that 1,000,000+ "died from COVID" when there is data to suggest that 94% had other conditions that can cause death, and also happy to use figures that are inaccurate because of comorbidity for comparisons to say that COVID is more deadly than the flu.. without a single piece of data to back that up?

Yeah I'm gradually learning that it's times like this to take these kinds of discussions less seriously. You're not going to change your mind, and you're arrogantly wrong as well which just makes it even less enticing to keep trying to discuss with you on the level of someone that at least has a basic understand of statistics and evidence-based arguments, or that is objective in any way.

Whatever mate, hit me up for another go at this when you actually start caring about the truth. Trying to discuss complex ideas with you in a balanced way seems pretty pointless unfortunately.
 
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ChillerNiller said:
So you and @VSYNC are saying that all the doctors of the world are conspiring and reporting false deaths?
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Nope I'm not saying it's doctors am I?

Although you can deep dive and see there is true and false information on more funds being made available if that person dies from Covid...

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/
It's a long read it goes over there there is no real evidence of people getting paid extra to report cases but then you have things like:

The CDC https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf says that officials should report deaths in which the patient tested positive for COVID-19 — or, if a test isn’t available, “if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.” It further indicates that if a “definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.'”

“If we think it’s presumptive … we can go ahead and put down COVID-19,” Jensen said, “or even in some situations, even if it’s negative.” He pointed to the https://www.twincities.com/2020/04/09/mn-coronavirus-joshua-pearson-cambridge/ of a 38-year-old man in Minnesota whose death was attributed to the coronavirus even though he tested negative.
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or

New York City https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html more than 3,700 victims to its death toll to account for presumed cases. The CDC’s https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html now makes note of how many cases and deaths were deemed “probable.”
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html
New York City, already a world epicenter of the https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.htmloutbreak, sharply increased its death toll by more than 3,700 victims on Tuesday, after officials said they were now including people who had never tested positive for the virus but were presumed to have died of it.
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And yet you see nothing wrong with that???
 
t2van said:
Nope I'm not saying it's doctors am I?

Although you can deep dive and see there is true and false information on more funds being made available if that person dies from Covid...

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/
It's a long read it goes over there there is no real evidence of people getting paid extra to report cases but then you have things like:



or



https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html


And yet you see nothing wrong with that???
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This in USA. It's not the world.
You are referring that all countries work together?
 
ChillerNiller said:
This in USA. It's not the world.
You are referring that all countries work together?
Click to expand...
Same situation in some of EU countries. Could you search, or want an exact example? :cool:
 
ChillerNiller said:
This in USA. It's not the world.
You are referring that all countries work together?
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't it apply to other countries?

Are we not all working together to get a "cure" then?

EVEN the UK has changed how it reports the numbers and the number of infections / deaths lowered one month by almost 5k.

I could post that here but then no doubt you would reply "What about France"
 
ChillerNiller said:
This in USA. It's not the world.
You are referring that all countries work together?
Click to expand...
Tvan proves his point with data and references, ChillerNiller just moves onto something else.

"Oh you proved that doctors are incentivised in the US to chalk up deaths as COVID, don't worry about that anymore, but what about other countries"... disingenuous and painful.
 
VSYNC said:
So you're happy to claim that 1,000,000+ "died from COVID" when there is data to suggest that 94% had other conditions that can cause death, and also happy to use figures that are inaccurate because of comorbidity for comparisons to say that COVID is more deadly than the flu.. without a single piece of data to back that up?

Yeah I'm gradually learning that it's times like this to take these kinds of discussions less seriously. You're not going to change your mind, and you're arrogantly wrong as well which just makes it even less enticing to keep trying to discuss with you on the level of someone that at least has a basic understand of statistics and evidence-based arguments, or that is objective in any way.

Whatever mate, hit me up for another go at this when you actually start caring about the truth. Trying to discuss complex ideas with you in a balanced way seems pretty pointless unfortunately.
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Why do you think you have to change my mind? If this is your aim then this is not a discussion but a brainwash.

I'm out too. Seems pointless to discuss with people who just want to spread their propaganda.

Notice that so-called anti-covid people here are the only ones left who respond.
It gives people headaches to argue with ignorant dumbasess.
No point to waste your time
 
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VSYNC said:
Tvan proves his point with data and references, ChillerNiller just moves onto something else.

"Oh you proved that doctors are incentivised in the US to chalk up deaths as COVID, don't worry about that anymore, but what about other countries"... disingenuous and painful.
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I wonder if such people sleep in masks and stay at home all day.

Of course everybody can have own opinion, but sh*t , no exaggeration.
Let's not act like it's Ebola.

If there was such a terrible plague of disease, would there be people who walk and deny it?
Illness is, okay. People die, okay. (Yeah, blow me up for that, but that's the truth - death is everyday life, not just covid). But 99% of people are fine.

And in my country, even large workplaces were entered and people were tested at one time. HEALTHY people found out about the infection.
I used to go with an Uber with one of the employees. Do you know what he told me?
"Don't believe the shit that the media says from all sides. 100% were healthy, but supposedly infected. What are the times when people don't report disease, but others look for them?"


Exactly. What the hell.
 
t2van said:
BUT positive numbers can only go up based on the number of people being tested... I don't get why that's hard to understand.

THERE are more people being tested now that there where back in March / April / May.

If you test more people. There are going to be more positives in them numbers.

Makes no difference how you try and spin it. If there is more testing there is going to be more positives. The accuracy behind those is another thing again..

Look at this way.

If no one got tested. There are no positives. So does that mean everyone immune? Or there is no virus?

Don't even get me started on the flaws of reporting when it comes to area number and case reported vs how many actual tests they can do in a day.
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Positive Numbers and Positive Rate is not the same thing, the increase in rate shows that the spread is increasing.
 
ChillerNiller said:
Why do you think you have to change my mind? If this is your aim then this is not a discussion but a brainwash.

I'm out too. Seems pointless to discuss with people who just want to spread their propaganda.

Notice that so-called anti-covid people here are left who respond.
It gives people headaches to argue with ignorant dumbasess.
No point to waste your time
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As I see he's not anti-covid, but he is a thinking man. He backs it all up with statistics. And you're probably sitting at home scared of these horrible numbers and believing whatever the politicians tell you.
 
ChillerNiller said:
Why do you think you have to change my mind? If this is your aim then this is not a discussion but a brainwash.

I'm out too. Seems pointless to discuss with people who just want to spread their propaganda.
Click to expand...
Victim card accepted incidentally.

If facts that counteract your opinions don't even make you pause for a second to reevaluate your opinions, then why even start the discussion?

If you showed me stats right now that prove unequivocally that COVID is as dangerous as it's being portrayed in the news, not only would I listen, but I would then do my own research on the data you referred me to, and after confirming it I would completely reevaluate my opinion about it, would absolutely renounce all of the posts I've made in this thread, and would go and buy a lot more PPE to protect myself.

But opposing facts just bounce off your brain, onto the next point, and it's a huge sign of weakmindedness when people cannot objectively discuss things.

Believe what you want mate, but don't enter into a discussion that I enter to in good faith with the inability to be able to handle counterfacts and then wonder why it seems to be completely pointless discussing this with you.

You're right though, let's leave it here.
 
bartosimpsonio said:
It's unbelievable that we still have this kind of lunacy 8+ months into this ordeal.
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98% of all people survive and 99.9% of people under 60 survive, however unemployment is at unprecedented levels globally as a result of lockdowns. In one month this year 15.9M people in the US became unemployed because of COVID lockdowns... 15.9M people.. in one country.. in one single month are now not earning money from their job.

The reported deaths have the chance of being significantly skewed because of comorbidity, and considering the implications of us needing accurate data to make decisions with 16M people in one month in one country losing their source of income.. isn't it even worth considering whether the accuracy of COVID mortality data is important?

They're my only points and they're supported by data. It's not lunacy to have opinions that use a little bit of nuance mate.

I actually get your angle which is that people watch shit on TV and then think that COVID isn't real based on that, but you've personally seen people catch it and had friends die from it so these people must be idiots.

Life's not that black and white man, and not everyone that questions the COVID death rate is a fucking moron you like guys think they are.
 
VSYNC said:
98% of all people survive and 99.9% of people under 60 survive, however unemployment is at unprecedented levels globally as a result of lockdowns. In one month this year 15.9M people in the US became unemployed because of COVID lockdowns... 15.9M people.. in one country.. in one single month are now not earning money from their job.

The reported deaths have the chance of being significantly skewed because of comorbidity, and considering the implications of us needing accurate data to make decisions with 16M people in one month in one country losing their source of income.. isn't it even worth considering whether the accuracy of COVID mortality data is important?

They're my only points and they're supported by data. It's not lunacy to have opinions that use a little bit of nuance mate.

I actually get your angle which is that people watch shit on TV and then think that COVID isn't real based on that, but you've personally seen people catch it and had friends die from it so these people must be idiots.

Life's not that black and white man, and not everyone that questions the COVID death rate is a fucking moron you like guys think they are.
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Man I don't know how to reply to this. It's crazy to think with all the information we have people like you are still out there denying this virus.
 
bartosimpsonio said:
Man I don't know how to reply to this. It's crazy to think with all the information we have people like you are still out there denying this virus.
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It's important to speak accurately.

I'm not denying the virus.

I am citing data that shows that in 94% of case in the US, people had other causes of death.

That's it bro.

Blame statistics if that doesn't sit well with you.

There's a difference between saying "COVID isn't real" and saying "Wow, shittonnes of the people that "died from COVID" also had cancer, respiratory disease, heart disease, long-standing kidney issues etc etc.. maybe it's inaccurate to say they died of COVID?!"

Not for an angle, not relating to politics, not as a conspiracy theory, but as a pure and logical fact. It's simple that mate - a fact.
 
VSYNC said:
It's important to speak accurately.

I'm not denying the virus.

I am citing data that shows that in 94% of case in the US, people had other causes of death.

That's it bro.

Blame statistics if that doesn't sit well with you.

There's a difference between saying "COVID isn't real" and saying "Wow, shittonnes of the people that "died from COVID" also had cancer, respiratory disease, heart disease, long-standing kidney issues etc etc.. maybe it's inaccurate to say they died of COVID?!"

Not for an angle, not relating to politics, not as a conspiracy theory, but as a pure and logical fact. It's simple that mate - a fact.
Click to expand...

That's some crazy shit right there man.

Sorry.
 
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