Vegetarians

I love this line:

shaddelick said:

Every day activists and vegans are working towards reducing suffering, it is because such like ones things are improving and continue to improve.

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so, let's see, if I eat a veggie burger, I'm Mother Teresa?

number of deaths in my dinner: 1
number of deaths in your veggie burger: 1,000,000,000+

I guess Mother Teresa was a mass murderer...

finding a real solution

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a real solution is to make animal production and farming sustainable. Veganism is not a path towards sustainability.

Did you know that grazing animals can increase the amount of stored carbon in the soil? Why is that important? because if we increase the soil carbon by .25%, that offsets all of the CO2 from the entire industrial revolution. Additionally, with more carbon in the soil comes greater yields.

You know what depletes soil carbon? plowing the soil. Growing grains and vegetables depletes the soil of carbon and other nutrients. Animals can increase the organic matter in soil.

The number one cause of desertification (land turning into desert) and deforestation is farming crops. Yeah, that's right. Growing those vegetables is hard on the environment.

Just as predators are important to any healthy ecosystem, grazing animals (most of our food animals fall into this category) are important to the health of grasslands and savanna. They help cycle nutrients.

Why is any of this important? Because raising animals for meat pays for us to put grazing animals on the grasslands, instead of plowing them up to grow your GM soy.

All healthy ecosystems have large animal populations. Farming with animals is more efficient than farming without.

Here's another fun fact for the vegans out there. If you want to go organic, and produce your own fertilizer, where does it come from? If you don't use animals, it has to come from plants. Well, then you have to grow that fertilizer. It takes 2 units of land to produce fertilizer for one unit of land if you are only using plants. And that's in optimal conditions. So, if you are talking about feeding a country organically with plants, you have to double the land required.

Or, you could use animals and increase the efficiency, requiring less land and getting more output.

If anyone is interested in this sort of thing, check out my website: http://velacreations.com.


-[

wexzone said:

I love this line:


so, let's see, if I eat a veggie burger, I'm Mother Teresa?

number of deaths in my dinner: 1
number of deaths in your veggie burger: 1,000,000,000+

I guess Mother Teresa was a mass murderer...

a real solution is to make animal production and farming sustainable. Veganism is not a path towards sustainability.

Did you know that grazing animals can increase the amount of stored carbon in the soil? Why is that important? because if we increase the soil carbon by .25%, that offsets all of the CO2 from the entire industrial revolution. Additionally, with more carbon in the soil comes greater yields.

You know what depletes soil carbon? plowing the soil. Growing grains and vegetables depletes the soil of carbon and other nutrients. Animals can increase the organic matter in soil.

The number one cause of desertification (land turning into desert) and deforestation is farming crops. Yeah, that's right. Growing those vegetables is hard on the environment.

Just as predators are important to any healthy ecosystem, grazing animals (most of our food animals fall into this category) are important to the health of grasslands and savanna. They help cycle nutrients.

Why is any of this important? Because raising animals for meat pays for us to put grazing animals on the grasslands, instead of plowing them up to grow your GM soy.

All healthy ecosystems have large animal populations. Farming with animals is more efficient than farming without.

Here's another fun fact for the vegans out there. If you want to go organic, and produce your own fertilizer, where does it come from? If you don't use animals, it has to come from plants. Well, then you have to grow that fertilizer. It takes 2 units of land to produce fertilizer for one unit of land if you are only using plants. And that's in optimal conditions. So, if you are talking about feeding a country organically with plants, you have to double the land required.

Or, you could use animals and increase the efficiency, requiring less land and getting more output.

If anyone is interested in this sort of thing, check out my website: http://velacreations.com.


-[

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I have done my best not to be nasty and stoop down to your level, but now you just pushed me. I pat myself on the back since i have been very patient. One more ignorant post and i will not be so civilized.

You not only want to do killing yourself, you want others to think its the right thing to do. Instead of being an honest person and trying to explain how not to kill at all, you want to make it an ok thing. You twist peoples words around and spread lies. You most truly are a unpleasant person to be around, i feel sorry for whoever needs to deal with you.

Its one thing that you are saying many lies, now its clear to me that you have a bottom line you are trying to protect. Not only is it tacky to promote your link here on a blackhat forum, its was a very foolish thing to do. You didnt even protect your whois info, so anyone can track your other sites.

The more you speak, the more foolish you sound, i advise you not to comment again in this thread.

kamchatka said:

Please get your facts right, apes and simians are omnivores. Omnivores have a different digestive system than that of herbivores and carnivores. Our digestive system is long and complex. It starts at the mouth and ends with the large intestine. This is to allow for the efficient absorption of nutrients from both vegetables and meat.

Herbivores on the other hand have a specialized digestion system with 4 chambered stomachs. They also have flora and fauna in their
digestive tracts to break down cellulose in plant fibres, without these they will become flatulent and die. Our digestive system has only a single
chambered stomach with no flora or fauna to break down plant cellulose. The fibres in our food only helps for easing bowel movements and avoiding constipation.

Carnivores on the other hand have a very simple digestive system that can break down complex proteins, ligaments, bones and even harmful microbes that are found in rotting meat. Their system digests protien very fast and makes it available for absorption.

Do not say humans in todays world do not need meat to live, you can not generalize living conditions across the world based on the quality of life in few first world countries. First world citizens can afford to choose and have food fads the rest of the world does not have it this easy.

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I agree with you we are omnivores, and so am I. I just don't believe that before humans got their hands fire we ate a lot of meat. How many of eat our meat uncooked? What I wanted to say is stop making excuse for eating meat, and don't tell me you do it for any other reason than it tastes good and you like it. It is your decision to eat it because we can live without it.

Also a plant based diet is cheaper than one based on meat and you see many of the poorest people do eat meat because they just don't have the money for it. And you just have to look to Asia to see that people can easily and cheaply live on a pure vegan diet.

And by the way I eat meat, I am just tired of all the hypocrites that give BS explanation to why they eat meat, just as I hate vegan who go around preaching their view of the world.

And I know that I am preaching now, sorry for that...

Meat is necessary for every living being. It is said that Hunter-gatherers had longer life spans and were in better physical shape than people who were adapted to agriculture.

hekasis said:

I agree with you we are omnivores, and so am I. I just don't believe that before humans got their hands fire we ate a lot of meat. How many of eat our meat uncooked? What I wanted to say is stop making excuse for eating meat, and don't tell me you do it for any other reason than it tastes good and you like it. It is your decision to eat it because we can live without it.

Also a plant based diet is cheaper than one based on meat and you see many of the poorest people do eat meat because they just don't have the money for it. And you just have to look to Asia to see that people can easily and cheaply live on a pure vegan diet.

And by the way I eat meat, I am just tired of all the hypocrites that give BS explanation to why they eat meat, just as I hate vegan who go around preaching their view of the world.

And I know that I am preaching now, sorry for that...

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I am an Asian too. Please tell me where in Asia there is a pure vegan culture except some rare monastries. A pure vegan diet lacks many vitamins and essential micro nutrients which has to be fulfilled through supplements.

I know this because my wife is a gynaecologist and we some times talk about the kind of medical conditions she comes across in her practice. In developing and under developed countries a significant part of the population is undernourished with moderate to high levels of protien and minerals deficieny which degrades the already poor quality of life that they have. A pure vegan diet will compound the problem since they will need supplements which are an added costs.

In college when I was a volunteer in a NGO providing self reliance income streams and education in the poor villages I saw people surviving on carbohydrate based diets (rice, potatoes and few vegetables),dairy products and meat was rare. Mind you, this was not by choice, they were forced to eat this diet since they could not afford protien and fats. Needless to say they were not healthy, they are strong to some extent but very susceptible to diseases. The children were a sickly bunch and often underweight. Mild cases of Kawashiorkar are common.

In India there is a saying 'Anna devta hain' literally translates into grain is god or food is god. I now understand both the origin and the societal significance of the saying.

It was very depressing. This has taught me one thing, food is precious. What I will throw away or wont eat because of a fad may mean a lot to another person.

May be Americans and europeans can afford to choose but a vast majority of our population can not. And if you can not sympathise with the plight of a fellow human being and consider other animals more important then sadly your priorities are wrong.

shaddelick said:

You not only want to do killing yourself, you want others to think its the right thing to do. Instead of being an honest person and trying to explain how not to kill at all, you want to make it an ok thing. You twist peoples words around and spread lies.

Its one thing that you are saying many lies, now its clear to me that you have a bottom line you are trying to protect.

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it is an ok thing to kill. you don't kill anything? or you just export it to someone else, right? For you to live, something must die. That means your existence means that thousands, and even hundreds of thousands of things have been killed by your actions. I don't ignore this, I embrace it. I don't deny who or what I am. I embrace it. You hide from your humanism, deny your actions, and live the lie.

yeah, I take the responsibility in my own hands. You don't mind exporting those 1,000,000,000 dead animals to someone else so that you can eat your veggie burgers, huh?

I have not lied once in any of my posts. You, however, make up ridiculous nonsense like that "vegans are responsible for organic farming" and "humans are not omnivores" and stuff like that. Keep living the lie, bud.

And it's very easy to see that I haven't lied. You can research every single one of my points. If they were lies, it would be pretty easy to post some evidence to the contrary, but we haven't seen anything like that from you.

Just more personal attacks, the typical response of someone with a failed argument.

You didnt even protect your whois info, so anyone can track your other sites.

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and why would someone want to do that? sounds like you have nefarious intentions.... typical.

For reasons of health and empathy I have greatly reduced my consumption of red meat. My choice and mine alone with no proselytizing intended.

wexzone said:

it is an ok thing to kill. you don't kill anything? or you just export it to someone else, right? For you to live, something must die. That means your existence means that thousands, and even hundreds of thousands of things have been killed by your actions. I don't ignore this, I embrace it. I don't deny who or what I am. I embrace it. You hide from your humanism, deny your actions, and live the lie.

yeah, I take the responsibility in my own hands. You don't mind exporting those 1,000,000,000 dead animals to someone else so that you can eat your veggie burgers, huh?

I have not lied once in any of my posts. You, however, make up ridiculous nonsense like that "vegans are responsible for organic farming" and "humans are not omnivores" and stuff like that. Keep living the lie, bud.

And it's very easy to see that I haven't lied. You can research every single one of my points. If they were lies, it would be pretty easy to post some evidence to the contrary, but we haven't seen anything like that from you.

Just more personal attacks, the typical response of someone with a failed argument.

and why would someone want to do that? sounds like you have nefarious intentions.... typical.

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Killing sentient life is what i am referring to. And this is an example of how you are someone people dont like to deal with. You twist up peoples words and distort the facts. You would make a great politician.

What you are saying are lies. I already explained to you how they are lies. I am not going to go through every lie you say and prove you wrong, thats is a wild goose chase. You should prove your own facts.

I didnt say vegans are responsible for organic farming, I said people like vegans who are bringing these things to light. Its because of people like vegans there are more and more cruelty free ways of producing food. You seek to belittle there efforts, continue cruelty and encourage it. There is no compassion left for people like you, not even from those who have no choice to deal with you

No matter how smart you think you are, you are very foolish for continuing to repeat your lies. And you still have your white hat website link up on a blackhat forum, and an eCommerce/blog site at that smh. I advise you to commenting on this thread, there is no more room for foolishness.

shaddelick said:

Killing sentient life is what i am referring to.

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so, you draw an invisible line in the sand to make it easy on your conscience? and yet, you ignore the billions of animals being killed to grow your veggies...

What you are saying are lies. I already explained to you how they are lies

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where have you shown any evidence? you haven't even addressed any of my points. Keep living the lie, bud.

I am not going to go through every lie you say and prove you wrong, thats is a wild goose chase.

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yeah, you are right, cause there are no lies to find...

You should prove your own facts.

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you said "proof doesn't matter"

I didnt say vegans are responsible for organic farming, I said people like vegans who are bringing these things to light. Its because of people like vegans there are more and more cruelty free ways of producing food.

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yeah, you see, that is complete nonsense. Vegans have not invented any new methods for growing food. They still use the plow, they still kill pests, they still cut down the forest for their crops.

No matter how smart you think you are, you are very foolish for continuing to repeat your lies

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what lies? again, you haven't addressed any of my points, you just keep saying "repeat your lies" Talk about a fool!

have you even made any valid points? your argument continues to weaken, now you are trying to grasp at things like me posting a link to my information site! wow, you really are completely full of shit, huh?

wexzone said:

so, you draw an invisible line in the sand to make it easy on your conscience? and yet, you ignore the billions of animals being killed to grow your veggies...

where have you shown any evidence? you haven't even addressed any of my points. Keep living the lie, bud.

yeah, you are right, cause there are no lies to find...

you said "proof doesn't matter"

yeah, you see, that is complete nonsense. Vegans have not invented any new methods for growing food. They still use the plow, they still kill pests, they still cut down the forest for their crops.

what lies? again, you haven't addressed any of my points, you just keep saying "repeat your lies" Talk about a fool!

have you even made any valid points? your argument continues to weaken, now you are trying to grasp at things like me posting a link to my information site! wow, you really are completely full of shit, huh?

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Nothing you say is accurate, where would i begin to disprove that? You say billions of animals die to make veggie burgers. First off, no animals die for the veggy burgers I eat. Secondly, most soy and grain that is grown(over 70%) is used to as feed for animals. And yes there are many ways that conscious people make food and sell veggy burgers without plows, look into it before you talk things you dont know .

My points are simple, no need to get complicated. If you feel that vegans should do even more to protect the lives of animals, thats great! You should be adding to ways that we do not have to kill any animals. But thats not what your saying.

You are not trying to find ways not to kill other sentient beings, you are just trying to protect your agenda. Yes what you say is very ignorant, I have no interest in trying to saticefy your requests to disprove you. You can easily disprove it yourself. And it was you who was foolish enough to put the links to your eCommerce/blog site on this blackhat forum in the first place, not me. Why would someone post there whitehat site on a blackhat forum, beats me. Especially with all there real whois info exposed. Maybe someone foolish enough to keep talking and spreading lies.

shaddelick said:

You say billions of animals die to make veggie burgers. First off, no animals die for the veggy burgers I eat.

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so, you ignore the insect "pests" killed by growing those veggies? or how about the countless soil life destroyed every time the soil is plowed? or how about the countless habitats destroyed to make more land to grow your crops? or how about all the rabbits, skunks, gophers, etc caught in plows, combines, harvesters, etc? those don't count, I guess. how convenient to be able to ignore and outsource your killing...

Secondly, most soy and grain that is grown(over 70%) is used to as feed for animals.

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FALSE. Soy is grown for soybean oil, the waste product, soy meal is fed to animals. Where does soy oil go? humans. Since you have never farmed anything in your life, I'm not surprised you keep bringing up this PETA nonsense sound bite. No one grows soybeans for animals, they grow it for the valuable product - the oil.

And let's just assume for a second that you are right (even though you are wrong). That means you are still responsible for 30% of the GM soybeans being grown for human food that kill billions of animals annually. At best, that 30% means only 300,000,000 animals were killed for your veggie burger (ignoring the wheat, corn, and other vegetables grown to produce it)

And yes there are many ways that conscious people make food and sell veggy burgers without plows, look into it before you talk things you dont know .

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no one is growing grains on any scale without plows and cultivation. Even "no plowing" agriculture disturbs the soil structure. And all of those still kill the "pests" like insects, deer, etc.

My points are simple, no need to get complicated. If you feel that vegans should do even more to protect the lives of animals, thats great! You should be adding to ways that we do not have to kill any animals. But thats not what your saying.

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you are right, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that your efforts are worthless at best, harmful at worst.

You are not trying to find ways not to kill other sentient beings

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yeah, I don't deny who and what I am. An apex predator. I fulfill my role in the ecosystem, you hide from it. I also don't draw imaginary lines in the sand and say "it's ok to kill that one, but not that one" Your whole premise is based on your perception of another being's sentience. Do you not see how flawed that is?

I have no interest in trying to saticefy your requests to disprove you.

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because you can't. your posts are getting weaker and weaker and weaker.

And it was you who was foolish enough to put the links to your eCommerce/blog site on this blackhat forum in the first place, not me.

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first of all, it is an information site, not an ecommerce site. Second of all, I don't have anything to hide. People can contact me, I'm not afraid of anything.

Maybe someone foolish enough to keep talking and spreading lies.

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you are the only liar here, now trying to backtrack to the things you already posted because someone called you on your bullshit. You are the definition of a fool, someone who doesn't even know they are being foolish!

shaddelick said:

Why would someone post there whitehat site on a blackhat forum, beats me. Especially with all there real whois info exposed. Maybe someone foolish enough to keep talking and spreading lies.

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am I supposed to interpret that as a threat?

wexzone said:

so, you ignore the insect "pests" killed by growing those veggies? or how about the countless soil life destroyed every time the soil is plowed? or how about the countless habitats destroyed to make more land to grow your crops? or how about all the rabbits, skunks, gophers, etc caught in plows, combines, harvesters, etc? those don't count, I guess. how convenient to be able to ignore and outsource your killing...

FALSE. Soy is grown for soybean oil, the waste product, soy meal is fed to animals. Where does soy oil go? humans. Since you have never farmed anything in your life, I'm not surprised you keep bringing up this PETA nonsense sound bite. No one grows soybeans for animals, they grow it for the valuable product - the oil.

And let's just assume for a second that you are right (even though you are wrong). That means you are still responsible for 30% of the GM soybeans being grown for human food that kill billions of animals annually. At best, that 30% means only 300,000,000 animals were killed for your veggie burger (ignoring the wheat, corn, and other vegetables grown to produce it)

no one is growing grains on any scale without plows and cultivation. Even "no plowing" agriculture disturbs the soil structure. And all of those still kill the "pests" like insects, deer, etc.

you are right, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that your efforts are worthless at best, harmful at worst.

yeah, I don't deny who and what I am. An apex predator. I fulfill my role in the ecosystem, you hide from it. I also don't draw imaginary lines in the sand and say "it's ok to kill that one, but not that one" Your whole premise is based on your perception of another being's sentience. Do you not see how flawed that is?

because you can't. your posts are getting weaker and weaker and weaker.

first of all, it is an information site, not an ecommerce site. Second of all, I don't have anything to hide. People can contact me, I'm not afraid of anything.

you are the only liar here, now trying to backtrack to the things you already posted because someone called you on your bullshit. You are the definition of a fool, someone who doesn't even know they are being foolish!

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Your purpous is to prove that growing grains and soy is the main reasons animals get killed. You seek to prove veggie burgers are killing more animals then anything else. I do not see any proof of what you are saying.


The veggy burgers I eat do not cause any killing of sentient life. The veggy burgers I eat do not contain soy(or wheat) since its no good for me. But I have eaten veggie burgers with soy that were completely cruelty free before.

My point is that to one must reduce as much suffering and killing as possible. Very simple, to the point. If there is any killing of sentient life, i am against it. Thats it, not that hard to understand. If you believe that eating vegestables is killing animals and that concerns you, i would be more then happy to find out your sources and work with you to bring this to light. But that not your real concern as we can see. Your concern is your agenda, your bottom line. Then you want to post a link to your whitehat site, an eCommerce one at that. In a blackhat forum, theres 1million and one ways for anyone to do anything they want to that site, its the truth, not a threat. I am a peaceful person, that wants us all to coexist, i am not looking to cause any harm. I am not like these people who are about 'survival of the fittest' or 'the strong will survive'. But I know in a blackhat forum, there are many people like this, thats why they are here

shaddelick said:

The veggy burgers I eat do not cause any killing of sentient life. The veggy burgers I eat do not contain soy(or wheat) since its no good for me. But I have eaten veggie burgers with soy that were completely cruelty free before.

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so, those are magic soybeans that don't require soil or don't have any pests, huh? so, what's in your veggie burgers? because all crops have pests, and all crops require cultivation, and all crops disturb the natural ecosystem... just because it is not soy or wheat doesn't mean it is exempt from killing. You are trying to ease your conscience, again, keep living the lie, bud.

My point is that to one must reduce as much suffering and killing as possible. Very simple, to the point. If there is any killing of sentient life, i am against it.

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So, you are against humans living, then? And what is you big fear of death in the first place? Death is part of life, everything must die. Why are you so afraid?

What makes you think my animals suffer? Have you ever seen a wild rabbit? talk about suffering! My rabbits have everything they ever wanted, plenty of food, space, clean water, no fear of predators. They are happy and content. No suffering involved.N

Now, let's look at the rabbit that strays into a soybean field, because he is trying to get away from the fox that has been tracking him for hours. He gets caught in a snare, and dies a long, horrible death. Or, maybe he goes in there during cultivation time, and the cultivator comes along, chops off a leg. So, he limps back to his burrow to die days later in lots of pain from gangrene. Or, maybe he eats a few soybeans, and then slowly begins to starve, no matter how much he eats, because soybeans are poisonous when raw, but he doesn't know that. And since soybeans are not native to the Americas, he has no evolved defenses, and instead, his body becomes weak, until he can't walk, and gets picked off by an owl.

Which situation has less suffering?

your whole premise is completely out of whack. You make up arbitrary distinctions based on your perception of other life. It is very possible that plants are sentient beings. Of course, you'll deny this, because it fits your argument. You apparently have no problem with killing, as long as you can say it isn't "sentient". What a load of bullshit. Why is sentient life worth more than life that you can't detect sentience? And why did you pick that qualifier in the first place? You might as well be saying, "I am opposed to killing blue things"

Growing crops of any kind kills animals, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if it is organic or not. For you to live, others must die. The fact remains that it requires less killing to just butcher one animal than to grow enough soybeans to fit in your veggie burger. Anyone that has ever grown food knows this, if they pay attention.

Then you want to post a link to your whitehat site, an eCommerce one at that

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I posted a link to an information site that is relevant to this discussion. I don't know why you have such a problem with information, I guess because it weakens your argument. But, whatever. There are countless links to whitehat sites on this forum. Get over it, already.

I am not like these people who are about 'survival of the fittest' or 'the strong will survive'. But I know in a blackhat forum, there are many people like this, thats why they are here

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so, now you are condemning this entire forum? wtf is wrong with you?

shaddelick said:

I do not see any proof of what you are saying.

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you said "no proof is required". If you can't find proof of anything I am saying, you aren't looking.

I thought about becoming a vegan, but I am already to damn skinny. I need calorie intake!

wexzone said:

so, those are magic soybeans that don't require soil or don't have any pests, huh? so, what's in your veggie burgers? because all crops have pests, and all crops require cultivation, and all crops disturb the natural ecosystem... just because it is not soy or wheat doesn't mean it is exempt from killing. You are trying to ease your conscience, again, keep living the lie, bud.

So, you are against humans living, then? And what is you big fear of death in the first place? Death is part of life, everything must die. Why are you so afraid?

What makes you think my animals suffer? Have you ever seen a wild rabbit? talk about suffering! My rabbits have everything they ever wanted, plenty of food, space, clean water, no fear of predators. They are happy and content. No suffering involved.N

Now, let's look at the rabbit that strays into a soybean field, because he is trying to get away from the fox that has been tracking him for hours. He gets caught in a snare, and dies a long, horrible death. Or, maybe he goes in there during cultivation time, and the cultivator comes along, chops off a leg. So, he limps back to his burrow to die days later in lots of pain from gangrene. Or, maybe he eats a few soybeans, and then slowly begins to starve, no matter how much he eats, because soybeans are poisonous when raw, but he doesn't know that. And since soybeans are not native to the Americas, he has no evolved defenses, and instead, his body becomes weak, until he can't walk, and gets picked off by an owl.

Which situation has less suffering?

your whole premise is completely out of whack. You make up arbitrary distinctions based on your perception of other life. It is very possible that plants are sentient beings. Of course, you'll deny this, because it fits your argument. You apparently have no problem with killing, as long as you can say it isn't "sentient". What a load of bullshit. Why is sentient life worth more than life that you can't detect sentience? And why did you pick that qualifier in the first place? You might as well be saying, "I am opposed to killing blue things"

Growing crops of any kind kills animals, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if it is organic or not. For you to live, others must die. The fact remains that it requires less killing to just butcher one animal than to grow enough soybeans to fit in your veggie burger. Anyone that has ever grown food knows this, if they pay attention.

I posted a link to an information site that is relevant to this discussion. I don't know why you have such a problem with information, I guess because it weakens your argument. But, whatever. There are countless links to whitehat sites on this forum. Get over it, already.

so, now you are condemning this entire forum? wtf is wrong with you?

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You are saying its impossible to live a life without causing suffering and death to other sentient beings. It may be very hard to live without hurting and destroying other sentient life, but trying ones best is not something to belittle. Vegan-ism does not cause more death and suffering to other beings then non vegan-ism. You can try all you want, but that is not the case. It is quite the opposite. You would like it to be the case however.

If your intentions are to prevent as much suffering and death as possible, then i am with you. But its clear that is not your intentions. You even make a profit off of the death and suffering of other sentient life. Your stats do not add up to vegans causing more death. If cultivating is be an area that needs improvement on, then i am all for it, not just me, but all compassionate individuals will side with you on that. In the end, all those who value the lives of all sentient beings would not want even to harm one. But instead you want to encourage the killing of them and the promote your website right on this thread.

I think we all have forgotten why do we eat food... We eat food to live.
Whether Veg or Non-Veg, its to live life. Your food, your choice.
Eat healthy, stay healthy!
Let debaters talk bla bla bla bla bla.....
Enjoy what you eat!

shaddelick said:

Vegan-ism does not cause more death and suffering to other beings then non vegan-ism.

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proof please.

Increased crop production based on your diet does increase death and suffering. you have stated many times that you purchase from vegan farmers. I've shown that plant-only farming systems require significantly larger land areas (double than animal integrated systems) to produce fertilizers. So, your system, at the very basic level, requires double the land, which means double the cultivation, double the deaths.

My animals don't suffer, as I've shown above. They live better than their natural counterparts. How much do your plants suffer? Do you even care? What about the pests to those plants? How much do they suffer? Do you even know? no, you don't! because you export and outsource your killing!

Your stats do not add up to vegans causing more death.

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my dinner: 1 death
your dinner: 1,000,000,000 deaths

pretty simple math, really. I'm surprised you are having trouble with that one.

You even make a profit off of the death and suffering of other sentient life.

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so do you. so does every human. For you to live, something must die. that's the rule, I didn't make it, that's the way it is. I choose to embrace my place, you choose to hide yours, export your death to some other place, therefore increasing it significantly. Keep living your lie, bud.

you make up imaginary qualifiers to ease your conscience. "sentient life"? by whose definition? so, you're saying that "sentient life" is better than all other life, huh? you fail to show us why you value "sentient life" above all the rest. the rest be damned! If we detect sentience in a plant, you will deny it, because it doesn't fit your "formula" for exclusion.

My position is simple. I don't need to attach imaginary abstract qualifiers to life around me. I am a part of a balanced ecosystem, a necessary component: the predator. Without me, the ecosystem fails. With me, it flourishes. It has worked this way for 1.5 million years, and it will continue to work this way fr a very long time, long after you've died from starvation.

You contribute nothing to your ecosystem, just take, exploit, kill, and take some more. Where are you giving back? where are you participating? where is your role? only as a consumer. a consumer of resources and of life, nothing more. But, you don't care about that, as long as you don't have to participate, as long as you don't have to get your hands dirty, and as long as you can export your killing and ease your conscience. Your denial fuels your exploitation, and the death toll mounts up. Kill everything in the way of your "non-sentient food".

Shame on you!

the promote your website right on this thread.

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you still can't get passed the website thing, can you? out of everything we're talking about, that's the thing you keep bringing up. Man, your argument is weak. You are really grasping, now.