SEO - Understanding the Simulation

What would be a perfect strategy for NEW sites (in order) ?

1) Social Bookmarking
2) Directory submission
3) Payed Reviews
4) Xrumer blast
5) comment spam blast ?

or should i do it all at the same time (start slow and build up the volume) ?

danhoff said:

What would be a perfect strategy for NEW sites (in order) ?
1) Social Bookmarking
2) Directory submission
3) Payed Reviews
4) Xrumer blast
5) comment spam blast ?

or should i do it all at the same time (start slow and build up the volume) ?

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Thats a pretty good order.
I'd say add in profile links up there with bookmarking and directories.
Probably want to do other article submissions along with the paid reviews.
Also blog commenting should probably start before article submissions.

Definately start slow and build up the volume. Also, the list should be cumulative. In other words do item 1, then 1&2, then 1,2&3, etc.

Choose your quantities based on what you've already done. Run through the list with smaller rates, then start again at 1 with a larger quantity and run through the list increasing the quantity for each item, then start again at one increasing it even more. It doesn't need to be perfectly consistent, a certain randomness would be more normal.

Also when your choosing the types, think about what would be most likely. In other words, it's more likely for people to add a favorite site to their profile, or add it to a blog comment. They're more likely to have less profile accounts than favorite blogs. So at first more profile links are more likely, then very quickly those profile owners would be bookmarking your pages, then some of them would be leaving comments on multiple blogs, a few might start posting articles and writing reviews so you don't need as many of those but you should try getting them on better sites. It wouldn't be natural for all site types exept for one would stop completely and then that one start in massive blasts. After the first few days all types of sites should be worked on. The quantities of each type of site being added will vary at different stages, but there still needs to be a natural ratio.

Just think of the simulation I described in this thread. Imagine you came up with a hampsterdance.com website and start running the simulation from telling your first friends, all the way to the site being a hugely popular site. Imagine its real people finding your site and making organic backlinks, and then make them happen yourself. Just put you mind to work and start placing all the links in the same type of progression you would imagine it happening naturally. Even if you do it rapidly (meaning over a period of days and weeks, not hours. lol) google will just see it as a viral website if the growth follows a natural progression. If you don't have natural growth, google will identify it as an seo campain by the webmaster and penalize it for being too fast. But Google wants to stay on top of the beat, so it will move a viral site up to the top faster. You want to appear as a viral website to the google algorithms.

I used to do olny directories and payed reviews with some success. Now i feel my sites reached a point, where no mater how much payed reviews / directory links i add (quality, not spam) i still remain in the same position. I guess it's time to diversify my link strategy as You suggested.

Thx mate !

Really great post, as you wrote most of us forgot the real sense of backlinking and only focus to create backlinks that usually don't go nowhere, or only a page with 1 backlink with the hope that bots will fine them sometimes

the worst side of natural looking backlinking is that it would take weeks, months or even years to get built, how to make it short? only building alliances with other webmasters with related sites? building sites and them post link to some site of my own and to some other sites of friends? making linkwheel chaotic linking?

there must be some solution to make it faster

tpaolo said:

Really great post, as you wrote most of us forgot the real sense of backlinking and only focus to create backlinks that usually don't go nowhere, or only a page with 1 backlink with the hope that bots will fine them sometimes

the worst side of natural looking backlinking is that it would take weeks, months or even years to get built, how to make it short? only building alliances with other webmasters with related sites? building sites and them post link to some site of my own and to some other sites of friends? making linkwheel chaotic linking?

there must be some solution to make it faster

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You misunderstood the point of my original post. It isn't a matter of going on to every page to make a totally natural backlink that real visitors are going to click on. That would be cool if you could do that, and you should always be doing that on the really choice websites. The point is to make sure that the growth of the backlinks as the spiders are finding them needs to be happening in the same type of pattern that would be found if the links really were happening naturally.

You can still use all the tools you have to blast out backlinks, use the service providers to get backlink packages. You can still use BH methods, but you need to have a natural order to the number and the type of backlinks your getting. Most of the websites being made for profit arent the type of sites that can really gain true popularity on their own. But you can present a simulation to the spiders and crawlers that they actually have found that type of a site.

You aren't going to fool a real visitor, they might buy what your selling but they probably aren't going to start helping promote your website, but you can fool an algorithm. But in order to fool the algorithm, you need to understand what your trying to present. The algorithm is looking for certain type of growth pattern.

There are only a four main factors that an algorithm can use to catalogue your site. Age of the domain, number of visitors, content of the pages, and the backlinks to your page.

Age of the domain is mostly out of your control.
Number of visitors is what your trying to increase by your efforts.
Content of your page should have been dealt with before anything else.
That leaves backlinking as the last thing you have much control over.

To get the best results with your backlinking, you need to present a simulation to the SE that will fake it into thinking it has found a site that is naturally growing in popularity. If you do it well enough there really isn't a way for the SE to penalize you for anything without penalizing the REAL viral pages as well.

You mention xRumer profile links. Is there something wrong with spinned posts with the same topic as my site and links from that post ?

danhoff said:

You mention xRumer profile links. Is there something wrong with spinned posts with the same topic as my site and links from that post ?

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How effective xrummer or any other tool is just depends on how well you're able to use it. Just send out as good of stuff as your able to do. Do the very best to make it seem as non-spammy as possible. Nothing wrong with article spinning, but again it depends on how good you are at it. If it starts puting out articles that look like a viagra email then you need to work at it more.

Hey GreyWolf... this is an excellent thread and you give very good, well thought out analysis of SEO and backlinking background and strategy.

I'm always conflicted about how could G really think that a local chiropractor could get 500 links! While I have been successful working with it... it still defies logic! I guess I should just be thankful that they created an SEO industry!

I wonder just how closely their algorithm can monitor this "natural" backlinking thing... and if anyone ever actually "eyeballs" a site that might be in question.

GreyWolf you are tottaly right about popularity of website, I found that when get one of my sites popular without backlinks and get good PR! Big G loves natural backlinks, but big G also see how popular is domain name on another sites. For popular domain you need make simple promotion - talk about it on sites, you dont need make backlinks. Popularity is one of big factors for SEO, you need to understand that your domain name is like a brand...

wow i lov ure writing man. keep up the work

Fun post from GreyWolf and good thread but I have always wondered why we have not heard more insider stories regarding the inner workings of Google and their secret sauce algorithms? Do they pay them that much? No disgruntled employees? Anybody care to share some sources for insider information?

bertbaby said:

Fun post from GreyWolf and good thread but I have always wondered why we have not heard more insider stories regarding the inner workings of Google and their secret sauce algorithms? Do they pay them that much? No disgruntled employees? Anybody care to share some sources for insider information?

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It's not very much of a big secret.. all anybody needs to do is look at their patents. Problem is most people can't begin to understand what they all mean.

Though.. Google engineers that work there do talk. They just reserve that talk with the tech heads that understand them. They don't care to be in a marketing forum where someone comes along saying 'Hey I got a great idea, lets JV together and make a ton of money!'. They would rather talk to someone about how to improve i/o on sql queries.. or ways to better manage cluster operations.

It really helps to know people like that. It does give you an inside look at how it operates, but it isn't anything that really translates into something that you can apply to marketing.

What would stun you though is that Google isn't all that complex as far as its search is concerned. What has become complex for google is managing all the verticals they have launched into every market you can imagine online except for porn and casinos.

Mister Gemini makes a good point about the google algorithms being fairly simple. They really need to be fairly simple because they're dealing with such a vast amount of data. They need to be complex enough to serve up relevant results, but if they become overly complex then it would take so much time indexing the data, their results would always be too much out of date. The other SEs would jump all over an opportunity like that. Even a few days out of date can be a big deal in the SE business.

The reason you need to do so much SEO isn't because the algorithms are so complex, it's because there are so many other sites that your being indexed alongside. You always have to do a little more than the other guy. And even though it's not all that complex, the amount of data collected is vast and without knowing exactly what the entire database is, there's really no way to completely know exactly how the algorithms are sorting through the various factors.

The best thing anyone can do is experiment a little and wait for the results, and try to find other people that are able to experiment even more so you can read their findings.

While this isn't revolutionary, it did make me reconsider my current promotion methods. I don't like the spammy crap I have to wade through searching, either, and I'm trying to shoot for that middle ground--a little blackhat, a little whitehat, and at least a little useful to somebody out there. I think it's very good practice to put ourselves in the Google mindset. It doesn't have to be rocket science--build a decent site, make it look attractive to Google, make it look "normal" to Google, ?????, profit!

Alice Mizer said:

While this isn't revolutionary, it did make me reconsider my current promotion methods. I don't like the spammy crap I have to wade through searching, either, and I'm trying to shoot for that middle ground--a little blackhat, a little whitehat, and at least a little useful to somebody out there. I think it's very good practice to put ourselves in the Google mindset. It doesn't have to be rocket science--build a decent site, make it look attractive to Google, make it look "normal" to Google, ?????, profit!

Click to expand...

Well that's rather easy. You want to make it attractive to google, just make it look attractive to people. Every change that google does is based on the browse data they collect from watching how people respond to web pages. They collect tons and tons of it, then analyse it to determine what is going on. It goes something like this for example: 'humm, it seems people really don't like these mini niche sites. They seems to leave them as soon as they get to them. This is not a good user experience, so we should start cutting out these kinds of sites from our index.'

Thats just one recent example of their outlook on mini niche sites. They look at things like this though for all kinds of things, and all kinds of verticals, not just search. This is in part what keeps them ahead in the search game, is their collection of user data and applying it to changes in their index.

The bottom line is, if you can create a site that keeps a visitor their for more than 1 minute, then you got yourself a winner. To do this, you need to have engaging content that serves the target query.

Mister Gemini

MisterGemini said:

You want to make it attractive to google, just make it attractive to people.

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I was talking to someone the other day, and that one statement in your reply turns out to be a great quote.

Thanks, Mister Gemini. Just one sentence and it explains so much.

Yes, is everything about strategy... People must creating!!!
You know what's the spider Simulator?
The spider Simulator show only the content of your webpage that s accessible and readable by search engines and leaves out images, design and traditionally in accessible data.
Today's Goal:
Run with the spider Simulator on your top web pages and look for opportunities for improvement!!!

I just wanted to say thanks for this great thread. With all the "latest" methods out there and everyone saying their approach is the best, I completely forgot about the most important thing, which is "why". When you understand why you do something, it's a lot easier to come up with a plan that is effective instead of following everyone else's "proven methods" even though you have practically no idea why you are doing it.

I think the most important thing we all need to remember is that Google is in it for the money, not out of a deep seated need to provide people with answers to their burning questions. Last I checked, Google wasn't a charity organization LOL

How does Google make money? From advertisements as well as sites that attract people on a regular basis who then click on Google's ads. So, I guess that means that the perfect site that Google truly loves is one that provides quality information to keep visitors coming back but not so much information that visitors ignore ads.

Of course, Google will continue to try and find ways to discourage crappy sites so that they don't lose their market share so, presumably, that means one has to find the perfect balance between quality information that keeps visitors coming back and vague content that will get visitors to click on ads.

Anyway, thank you GreyWolf for getting me to think rather than just do.

Loved the post. I have your blog in my Google Reader and love the tips.

This thread is more valuable than any seo book out there! Thx to all, and I will be applying it today.