I am fairly new here and have posted some replies to a few threads in the past few weeks. I always stayed away from this forum in the past, because of it's name.. "Black Hat World," but just goes to show that you can't judge a book by its cover. Indeed, over the past three weeks I have come to really appreciate this forum very much and the wide diversity of things that are discussed, and the amazing sharing of knowledge. I have been doing SEO since 1997, before Google even existed (anyone remember Infoseek, Hotbot, Webcrawler, and some of the other weird and wonderful engines?) however I also know that there are many who have much more knowledge and experience than I do. But I have also always gotten my clients very good results - perhaps because most of them are in smaller niches (although, still competitive in their own way) and my successes in the past have been through hard work, mostly manual stuff and the fact that my business has a ton of its own web properties, covering a wide spectrum of subjects and those have often been used to help clients out. Most of my clients do have a bricks and mortar type business, but they depend on doing well in organic search results, not local results. For example, I have a client that specializes in a sub-niche and his product is sold world wide (in smaller numbers than say, what you will get at Walmart), but is of much higher quality than what the "big boys" he competes against put out. It's not just that there is an element of customization to his product, but let's say he would be classified as a manufacturer of "widgets" but in this industry, there are enough people world wide to have a wildly passionate interest in "red widgets." They have little interest in any other of the types of widgets available. So in order to do well, he needs to have a world wide presence. Local search results really mean nothing to him. He also does compete against big manufacturers that make all kinds of widgets, including his "red widgets." Up until a year and a half ago, he was doing very well on a variety of search phrases. However, we wanted to take it to the next level for him. Instead of #8-10 on page 1, we wanted to see him above the fold. One of the things that I did and I do believe was instrumental in helping him was taking advantage of the methods of Local Search SEO. Now, this ONLY works if indeed, it is a bricks and mortar business that you can visit. You should not (and please don't) do this if all you have is a post office box in your town for your business. Local Search SEO has a couple of elements that are vital: 1. Uniformity of business data 2. Citations. So we focussed a great deal on that aspect, even though we didn't really care where he ended up in local search. Many of the citation sources don't provide links - but that is ok. Google can figure out data uniformity with phone numbers, etc (another tip - ALWAYS put a phone number - at least American ones, in the format of (xxx) xxx-xxxx - better yet, use microformat as well). Very conservative backlinking was done to his site, but we were quite aggressive with the citations and ensuring all other citations that existed contained EXACT business data, right down to the period after the Ltd. in his business name. We saw almost immediate improvements in his organic search listings. And within just a few months, he was ranking #3 for the major "red widget" term, and #1 for other very important terms in his niche. He actually jumps around now between #3 and #1 for "red widgets," ahead of other brand name manufacturers. I have another client in a similar position - his product is in a much more competitive market and again, although local search is pretty useless to him, I have got him on the bottom of Page 1 of Google for a VERY competitive one word search term, not by overdoing huge numbers of backlinks, but by really focusing on local search data, citations, and uniformity of business data. For this term, he was absolutely nowhere to be found (as well as other terms for which he now ranks on Page 2) six months ago. I provide both Local Search SEO and Organic SEO, and am now also offering a combination package for an increased fee as I know working them both, where possible, can be synergistic. This might be helpful to those who can say that they have a bricks and mortar business, but where they also are actually looking to increase organic search. Of course, this information will be useless to those who have zero local presence as far as a bricks and mortar business - but if you can find a way to do that, (without using a post office box or one of those fake "suite" addresses that is just a box.. Google knows about them), then you might want to incorporate this into your SEO. If I've helped anyone, I'm glad... I'm thankful for the knowledge that is shared here and appreciate it very much.