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Normal People falling for a Website's ToS?

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by Capo Dei Capi, May 8, 2015.

  1. Capo Dei Capi

    Capo Dei Capi BANNED BANNED

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    What is it with normal people(non IM'rs) claiming that a ToS is valid and that a ToS can make a website have copyright over certain materials. I'm on a website and all these guys are attacking me for exposing that a ToS does not give a website copyright ownership.


    Some Americans tried to get me to believe that a ToS is valid even when a court doesn't consider them valid.

    http://lifehacker.com/5901773/breaking-a-terms-of-service-isnt-necessarily-a-crime
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
  2. cottonwolf

    cottonwolf Regular Member

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    People have a dual relationship with terms of service, copyrights and all rights reserved crap on websites. On one hand, they're supposed to support and defend you, as the website owner, on the other hand website owners go nuts beyond the wildest dreams you can dreams of to pursue their stupid policies on their sites. On the third hand, it tries to be fair the users of the websites.

    I think most of the times, this picture explains what happens:
    [​IMG]

    Then people happily carry on with their scraping, usage and business:
    [​IMG]

    And again tomorrow, the day after and on and on:
    [​IMG]

    Then after a few bad hiccups, they've got to deal with it:
    [​IMG]

    Anyway, terms of service can be drawn up rather arbitrariliy, and I sometimes wish big companies with their DOs and DONTs can go F themselves
     
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  3. Gogol

    Gogol Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    This is interesting. The most two hilarious phrases I find in many website ToSs are 1. "including, but not limited to" and 2. "you agree that we may change our TOS in order to f**k you".

    Anyway, I do not think breaking TOS is a criminal offense, but that's only my judgement . Waiting for the knowledgeable ones to chime in and shed some light on this.
     
  4. Trepanated

    Trepanated Supreme Member

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    Breaking a ToS agreement is not against the law. ToS are a civil contract/agreement between two parties.

    If someone breaches the agreement, the other party is entitled to take legal action and the outcome would be dependant on whatever the laws are that govern the contract. Once a legal judgement is made though, if someone doesn't then comply with the judgement, they are likely to be breaking the law.

    It's the same with breach of contract - that's not illegal either.

    They are both civil matters.

    Having said that, just because it's not illegal to breach a contract or break a ToS, that does not mean the other party cannot use the law to enforce the contract or remedy the breach.
     
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  5. xtopzi

    xtopzi Regular Member

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    Well that's debatable, it's what they pinned on Aaron Swartz wasn't it. From Wikipedia:

    So...as far as I can see, in the United States, you can still be charged with wire fraud and spend half your life in prison for it. No?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act#Aaron_Swartz
     
  6. BassTrackerBoats

    BassTrackerBoats Super Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    That is a sad story about Aaron Swartz; there is a video out that shares a part of his life that relates to this situation. He was not charged with a TOS violation but rather stealing information and breaking and entering.

    He accessed other computers without permission and downloaded (stole) content from them from what I remember which got him some kind of Federal Charges.

    Really sad as he was a bright mind and seemed like a pretty good guy that ended up committing suicide over that whole mess.

    Had nothing to do with any website Terms of Service though.
     
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  7. xtopzi

    xtopzi Regular Member

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    I also saw a documentary about him on Youtube which is where I learnt about those charges.

    You're refering to the "computer fraud, unlawfully obtaining information from a protected computer" whereas he was also charged with those ridiculous wire fraud and computer fraud charges, hence the Aaron's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron's_Law


    The prosecution wanted to add much heavier charges on top of it (the 11 wire fraud / computer fraud act violations) and were able to do so because of the outdated laws that allow it. See quote from my previous reply.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
  8. BassTrackerBoats

    BassTrackerBoats Super Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    Yes, that is it; that was not a TOS violation he was prosecuted for although I am sure it is against the TOS of the site where he got the info.

    I'm not commenting on the right or wrong of the whole situation but rather just saying he did not get charged for crimes as a TOS violation since that is a civil thing as shared above by Trepanated.
     
  9. xtopzi

    xtopzi Regular Member

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    I'm not saying you're wrong but why would it be called Aaron's Law that's looking to change the outdated wire fraud act that has a very vague interpretation, allowing prosecutors to pin "breaking TOS" on a user?

    http://www.wired.com/2013/06/aarons-law-is-finally-here/

    What Aaron's Law wants to change to the CFAA:
    In other words: currently, the CFAA can be violated by using a website not in accordance to the ToS. Aaron's Law wants to re-define that to a more clear 'mallicious' use like hacking. So from what I get from it, under current law you may violate the CFAA by breaking the ToS (see Wired.com link).
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
  10. BassTrackerBoats

    BassTrackerBoats Super Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    I don't know enough about the whole situation and I've never read the law so I could not possibly give an intelligent informed response there and I'm not going to speculate on whether the law is good, bad or a contrived effort to hurt one particular person.
     
  11. xtopzi

    xtopzi Regular Member

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    Accidental double post. Hope I'm not breaking the ToS here ;)
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
  12. IMpossible

    IMpossible Supreme Member

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    The best way to make them read and accept the ToS is to show it to them BEFORE they engage with your content.
     
  13. archon10

    archon10 BANNED BANNED

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    lol you have to remember that writing something down and making people sign it doesn't mean you can write anything and it's legal. For instance, I can't tell my grocery store clerk that I'm robbing his store but I'm not responsible for anything and he can't sue me. Same with a ToS. You can put whatever you want in a ToS but it doesn't mean it's enforceable.
     
  14. IMpossible

    IMpossible Supreme Member

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    Do you even know what a ToS is?
     
  15. Capo Dei Capi

    Capo Dei Capi BANNED BANNED

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    One guy even ratted me out just for talking about a ToS not being valid and got me banned from a website. Luckily the people that run said website are freaking retards and a ban is super easy to evade.
     
  16. archon10

    archon10 BANNED BANNED

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    Bans are always easy to evade. Which forum were you on? I want to create a troll account.
     
  17. Capo Dei Capi

    Capo Dei Capi BANNED BANNED

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    It wasn't a forum it was another kind of website.
     
  18. archon10

    archon10 BANNED BANNED

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    well bummer
    I was going to make the name with ToS in it and have some fun with them.

    oh well...
     
  19. Capo Dei Capi

    Capo Dei Capi BANNED BANNED

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    Now thinking of it, its kind of a captain obvious thing to say "That bans are easy to evade". A professional site is in the business of making money which means they can't really care about banned members returning as long as they don't cause trouble anymore or they have done something pretty major against a website in the past such as fraud.

    I just find it funny that so many people beleive that if a website states that "All content on sitename is copyrighted of sitename" That the website actually owns the copyright even though the website is not actually producing the content. Even copyright isn't as powerful and allreaching as what some people claim, the people that reported me also said I was scum for speaking the truth on copyright laws.