Nelson Mandela R I P

Status
Not open for further replies.
Disagree. There was no other choice. Here is where history shows the inevitable consequences of any other alternative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

Nigel, while I'm really impressed with your ability to quote mine the hell out of Wikipedia nevertheless we always have choice, it's just that some choices are much worse than others and we should give Mandela his props for choosing the road to peace in South Africa rather than war.

Peace!
 
I believe what is important about Mandela is that while he was in prison he evolved and moved away from violence towards a peaceful solution, quite unlike the transformation that occurred when Hitler was in jail. One man grew while the other stewed in his own hate and bile. Mandela is not a saint but he does point to the fact that we can all continue to spiritually grow throughout our brief existence on this planet.

Right, but the question is who is and is not doing the spiritual "growing". I say growth looks like refraining from giving undo praise and credit to a man that is responsible for the deaths of women & children. In other countries and cultures, a man convicted of committing similar crimes would never have gotten out of prison, no matter how many people sang songs and beat drums about it. In some countries & cultures, he would have been executed.

When people are talking about the "growth", it's a good idea to mention that it was the western, european culture and governmental system that gave Mandela the opportunity to "grow". He didn't save South Africa, South Africa saved HIM. The chinese would have executed him within the week, and imprisoned anyone that made an issue out of it. And many of the other African countries wouldn't even have given him a trial.

According to the article below, he is guilty of mass-murder. What do you think the victims and their families would have to say to all you cheerleaders, celebrating the life of the man that killed their father, mother, son, daughter? You people have some really crippled consciences, to be able to ignore mass-murder in order to feel good about a single "conversion". General Butt Naked converted too. So what? He ate human flesh, and ordered mass rapes of villages. The only reason why some of you people cannot condemn this man for the depraved criminal that he is, is because you have a different standard for him, and the continent that he was on.

On THIS continent, we would have dropped a hellfire missile on his house, killing him, his wife, his children, a couple of his neighbors and the guy from Dominos Pizza that just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. We'd have called all the excess deaths "collateral damage" and felt pretty good about the fact that we got rid of an extremely dangerous terrorist.

But standards are different for this one. It's been lowered. We voluntarily practice "affirmative action", even for mass murderers. No one is going around saying what a beautiful, spiritually grown person Bobby Sands was. He killed people on a different continent.

So lets all have a proper perspective here of what's what. The adage "I don't mind so much that you are pissing on my head, just don't expect me to tell people that it's raining." That's piss. Stop calling it rain.

Here's some more factual information for you cheerleaders to shake your pom-poms at:

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela's MK terrorists.
 
Last edited:
You guys know very little about South Africa and its history of Mandela's for that matter huh?

The Nuclear program was demolished before he came into power because the ruling power knew the country was about to be run by uneducated folks not capable of handling nuclear weapons.

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela?s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate?s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ?n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 ? limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate?s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating ?[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ?Prisoner of Conscience? to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ?conventional warfare? a degree of restraint may be exercised.?



As President he bought a lot of military hardware

Inheriting a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, one might expect resources to be poured into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Yet once in office, even Mandela?s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people. Deputy Minister of Defence Ronnie Kasrils said in 1995 that the government?s planned cuts in defence spending could also result in the loss of as many as 90,000 jobs in defence-related industries.

Mandela?s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane. Clearly, the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighed heavily on the minds of South African leaders?

Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) purchase of weaponry was finalised, which has been subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence?s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft.

Below are some of the purchases made, presumably to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay?



Description

Original Qty

Illustrative total cost

Corvettes

4

R4 billion

Maritime helicopter for corvettes

5

R1 billion

New submarines to replace Daphne

4

R5,5 billion

Alouette helicopter replacement

60

R2 billion

Advanced light fighter

48

R6-9 billion

Main Battle Tank replacement of Olifant

154

R6 billion

Total cost in 1998 Rand

R25-38 billion



Mandela was friendly with dictators

Despite being synonymous with freedom and democracy, Mandela was never afraid to glad hand the thugs and tyrants of the international arena.

General Sani Abacha seized power in Nigeria in a military coup in November 1993. From the start of his presidency, in May 1994, Nelson Mandela refrained from publicly condemning Abacha?s actions. Up until the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in November 1995 the ANC government vigorously opposed the imposition of sanctions against Nigeria. Shortly before the meeting Mandela?s spokesman, Parks Mankahlana, said that ?quiet persuasion? would yield better results than coercion. Even after the Nigerian government announced the death sentences against Saro-Wiwa and eight other Ogoni activists, during the summit, Mandela refused to condemn the Abacha regime or countenance the imposition of sanctions.

Two of the ANC?s biggest donors, in the 1990s, were Colonel Muammar Gaddafi of Libya and President Suharto of Indonesia . Not only did Mandela refrain from criticising their lamentable human rights records but he interceded diplomatically on their behalf, and awarded them South Africa ?s highest honour. Suharto was awarded a state visit, a 21-gun salute, and The Order of Good Hope (gold class).

In April 1999 Mandela acknowledged to an audience in Johannesburg that Suharto had given the ANC a total of 60 million dollars. An initial donation of 50 million dollars had been followed up by a further 10 million. The Telegraph ( London ) reported that Gaddafi was known to have given the ANC well over ten million dollars.



The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, the simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. Its important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can?t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he?s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal
 
I just started to read some of the comments here. I do not want to comment on them and get into a pissing war with the people here so all I will say is this.

Try being oppressed for your entire life based on the color of your skin. Try going through even a day where because of your skin color you are subjected to different laws and punishments.

I am not from SA, I am Canadian, family from Europe. I have been lucky enough to live my life in peace and privilege and I assume you have too.

Don't comment on someone's actions unless you have been in the same situation as them.
 
I didn't knew that Mr. Mandela were in the jail for 27 years for fighting against racism and for people's right..
Big respect to this Great Man.

R.I.P. Mr. Mandela. A brave & great humanitarian who fought for, went to jail for (27 years)
and finally lived to see his country of South Africa become a democracy. A truly amazing man.

Big Respect to him. :)

"Wiz"
 
I am a white South African and have been oppressed and driven from my country so I know and have the right to comment. I wasn't put in jail because I didn't murder hundreds.

I am 25 and didn't have a hand in the apartheid BS but I am legally not allowed to work from companies in SA because I am white.

Apartheid was wrong. Read up more, you will be amazed. More white people have been killed due to race wars in the last month, than black people were in the whole apartheid era.

Look at the crime, murder, rape and economic rates and get back to me on this.
 
I didn't knew that Mr. Mandela were in the jail for 27 years for fighting against racism and for people's right..
Big respect to this Great Man.

Fight for freedom, definitely. But do so with peace like Martin Luther King did, not by killing woman and children (black and white)
 
You guys know very little about South Africa and its history of Mandela's for that matter huh?

The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, the simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. Its important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can't bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he's just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal

Again a large chunk of my ancestry is Dutch Boer and if you know anything about South African history you'll know what that means. For those that don't check out Wikipedia but it won't tell you half of the story.

I agree that no people or no man is without their myriad flaws but that said I see little purpose in spitting on another man's grave no matter what feelings I may harbor towards him.
 
My final thoughts below :wink1:
View attachment 42508
You have mistaken your education for an argument you aren't qualified to participate in. And it's the person that doesn't learn anything that is retarded. Which is, and has been, and is always, my larger and over-arching point. And why we have fallen, and shall continue to fall, until something truly dramatic changes. I use and showcase people to serve as examples to others.
 
What I don't understand is why people assume that someone automatically deserves respect once they die? What is wrong with society? Are your minds this much compromised by the blabberings of the media? SA's death rate has been increasing since ever .. so what exactly has been improved since ending apartheid? He was advocating the genocide of the white minority, and this is why whites live now like this:

s03_000FR006.jpg

s04_00000008.jpg

s23_00000011.jpg


It seems to me apartheid has switched sides, and not actually ended.

http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-south-africa.html
http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/ancs-black-on-black-killing-spree.html
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/apartheid-did-not-die/

But no, let's ignore the bold facts and post a quote which proves that he did good in your sheeple eyes.

I just started to read some of the comments here. I do not want to comment on them and get into a pissing war with the people here so all I will say is this.

Try being oppressed for your entire life based on the color of your skin. Try going through even a day where because of your skin color you are subjected to different laws and punishments.

I am not from SA, I am Canadian, family from Europe. I have been lucky enough to live my life in peace and privilege and I assume you have too.

Don't comment on someone's actions unless you have been in the same situation as them.


Since when does being opressed justifies the death of innocent civilians?

thewordintelligenceisalsothepolaroppositeofdolan_0a6e3bd1f9d88e169795acdf58dd97ee.jpg


And the black on black crime is huge in SA, read the article above and you might learn something.
 
Last edited:
He's been honored plenty of times by institutions who should know better. I have kind of respect for leaders who can inspire people to think of peace even if it is not the "truth". So let him rest in peace...
My controversial statement here though is that I would not give that much respect to a leader from a country where more people per capita are raped compared to any other place in the world. And I am no a woman so I am not one of those feminists who cry rape all the time but the statistic for that in South Africa is simply crazy...
 
He's been honored plenty of times by institutions who should know better.

You assume those institutions are God provided angels that work for your own good. Right, because you are a unique snowflake and you are important. So important that the elites of the world labor for your own good. How did I miss that? :)

I know very little on the actual issue, so this is a general comment.
 
Did he give any compensation, make any restitution to the victims and the families of the victims that he was responsible for killing?

Did George Washington give any compensation, make any restitution to the victims and the families of the victims that he was responsible for killing? Remember the context, and the tendency of (hostile) factions to label people and things outside of the context. Violent opposition to an aggressor or occupying regime does not make one a mass murderer, or a "terrorist."

The old Funk & Wagnalls definition of terrorism stressed it was primarily terror and intimidation practiced by a government against its people, not as performed by individuals. While Mandela was hardly perfect, his actions basically fall under self defense. He did not have to "renounce violence" in the context of fighting state-sponsored repression, nor provide restitution for collateral damage, any more than General Washington did. The real issue some have with him is that he was not a US puppet, and tried to maintain independence from the West.

BTW, does the US avoid forming relations with dictators as it suits its interests? Considering the 27 year incarceration was the concoction of Western intelligence agencies, who needed to put a non-co-opted rebel leader out of the way, it was natural for Mandela to seek alliances elsewhere, to keep peace with his neighbors. The big picture is to note he moved South Africa towards a freer society with a stable market economy, regardless of his communist profession, while most dictators (who are aligned with the CIA) move their counties towards less freedom and away from capitalism, despite US democratic professions.
 
Last edited:
Did George Washington give any compensation, make any restitution to the victims and the families of the victims that he was responsible for killing? Remember the context, and the tendency of (hostile) factions to label people and things outside of the context. Violent opposition to an aggressor or occupying regime does not make one a mass murderer, or a "terrorist."

You are confusing things. It is one thing for 2 armies to clash and another thing to kill civilians to cause unrest and promote your cause.

Regarding Washington, I do not have time now to read about early American history, but he is not some kind of special exception. If he killed civilians, he is a bloody mass murderer like any other.
 
But he got out and preached peace & reconciliation. There would be no war. Throw your weapons into the sea...

I stayed out of this one because I have mixed feelings. Some of us here are old enough to remember what he did. It was on the news every night. He was a mass murderer. On the other hand, he turned his life around and became a good person. The God I worship says to forgive. This is a complex argument because there aren't many people Mandela can be compared to. I can't think of anyone at the moment who was so evil yet so good all in one lifetime. Everyone here is right. Yes, he was bad. And yes, he was great. Does one negate the other? I really don't know. Chalk this one up to leaving it in God's hands to deal with, because no one is ever going to make reason out of it.
 
RIP Mandela.

Truly a great man who took his country from international isolation and pariah nation to the international table. As a black British woman, I've visited SA twice. Took the boat over to Robben Island and stood outside his cell. Walked in the prison yard, saw the limestone that I believe contributed to Mandela's later health problems and could not believe anyone could emerge from there after nearly 30 years and call for reconcilliation.

Did he make mistakes, yes. Did he more than make up for that his whole life? Yes.

Rightly, the man found his place in history and nothing will ever change that.

Respect!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top