Litcircle - Scammer Banned

void957 said:

Can I just point out that we never at any point agreed on daily excel reports neither did he ever request them. The ones I provided was merely an addition since I wanted him to get an idea of what I was posting so we could change up the comment style which we did at a few points. After the first few days of sending the reports and him being happy eith it I did not make it a goal to have every comment saved for review by litcircle although I did go on to send them irregularly anyway. The ones he has is the majority, I might have 1 or 2 extra files that's it.

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That is not AT ALL the issue here.

@void957

You very well may have pushed some comments. I know I saw a few. But you did not push anything near the thousands you promised and claimed.

Normally that wouldn't have been a serious issue, and it certainly wasn't for me at the time. But you made it a serious issue when you threw a $1200 "bill" at me and tried to intimidate me into paying it.

I hardly think I should have to ask for something you already promised to give. And even more damning, you used those spreadsheets as clear evidence you had done the job you said you were doing (yet which had resulted in nothing positive for me or my campaign). In the end what you did give was clear evidence of your failure to do what you said you were doing.

Thread locked until I have all the spreadsheets and time to look them over.

After going through all the files from you guys I'm going to call this a wash.

@void957 keeps the money he received and no more money is owed.

I received more files from the accused (22) than from the accuser (14) which disappointed me as I expected you both to give me everything.

Some of the files with the same name had conflicting information as well.

Consider this SL closed.

Going forward you both need to make the terms of the agreement as clear as a bell.

No where did I see that @void957 even had to produce documentation but he did.

Waiting a while to review the documentation is poor business, @litcircle.

Poor record keeping is one of the main ways a business goes south and neither one of you guys provided to me anything that I would want to keep in any filing cabinet that I had control over.

I'm not entertaining any more commentary on this either as you both wore me out pretty good via PMs as well as in this thread.

I am going to say this, @litcircle, had you said some of the things here on BHW, that you said in those Skype chats, you would not be sent packing as that was well out of line. I know you were frustrated but that sort of thing passes all manner of lines.

I took a bit of heat from one of the participants in this thread over the past few days so I think it would benefit the community if I explained in more detail why I decided what I did.

First and foremost, nobody proved anything as to the work getting done or not done to completion. There is no way to guess and I'm certainly not going to speculate as to which person is telling the truth (or even knows the truth) and which one is lying (if indeed someone was lying). If you want to "win" a SL you need to come through with proof.

You have no idea how many get submitted and never go live because people fail to show any proof at all.

Secondly, the OP did spend money on accounts and proxies and did have proof of some work so there had to be some consideration given for that. The proof he offered was not to the extent of what the buyer ordered but there was some proof. That constituted at least partial payment.

Neither the seller nor the buyer used their heads in defining how it was going to be proven the work was done.

That is an element of every contract I have every done in business over the past 35+ or so years. Proof the work has been done. For instance, in the bottled water business it would be a POD (proof of delivery) in the form of a signed invoice. In the upholstery business it was a new looking seat, backrest or vinyl top AND a POD. In the building maintenance business it was a shiny floor AND a signed invoice.

This whole mess could have been easily settled between the two of you had you set up some sort of "pics or it didn't happen" scenario in your contract.

If you are going to do business, be sure to define what you are going to use as a benchmark for proof of delivery of the product or service.

On the seller's side, not looking at the initial reports and getting things clear early in the game since he complained about the level of work was a slacker move. If you are going to order something, get some level of proof that you got what you paid for, and then not bother to look at the documentation, perhaps you are in over your head with all you have going on in your life.

You have to look at the documentation in a reasonable time frame and that did not happen at all.

Both the OP and the accused mailed it in when it came to paperwork on this project and if one of you had followed generally acceptable business practices we would have been able to have this SL thread cleaned up in much less time, with much less aggravation for all parties and there would be no question as to what the outcome should be because the terms, conditions and proof would all have been outlined.

Don't complain to me, or anyone else for that matter, if you do not protect yourself in a business matter, because if you do not protect yourself with proper paperwork, it is darn near impossible for me to protect you.

This reminds me of what my old Chase banker said when I asked him what he thought about Wells Fargo and the huge fraud case. "No surprises". No surpsises here. What I said before is only more true now. I was not asking you to protect me, man. I was making you aware of his business conduct.

It's a bit insulting you're gonna make the biggest point of this thread some of the comments I made to him. My personal statements to him were totally irrelevant to our business relationship, which was fraudulent on his end and not mine (given I paid and could've paid more as I have spent on other things).

The whole point of my comments to him were that they crossed the line and were insulting. That was by design. I was trying to offend him because he stopped responding to me and had so obviously not fulfilled his side of the contract. All the best, I will limit my business here as much as possible and would strongly encourage others to do the same. I can only hope people check this thread before thinking of doing business with that guy or on this forum in general.

Say what you'd like about Fiverr, they don't pass judgement on my comments to people when it comes to a business relationship. Because that has nothing to do with anything, and with all due respect, I could care less what you think of my personality.

litcircle said:

No surprises dude. What I said before is only more true now. I was not asking you to protect me, man. I was making you aware of his business conduct. My personal statements to him were totally irrelevant to our business relationship, which was fraudulent on his end and not mine (given I paid and could've paid more as I have spent on other things). The whole point of my comments to him were that they crossed the line and were insulting. That was their purpose. I was trying to offend him because he stopped responding to me and had so obviously not fulfilled his side of the contract. All the best, dude. Hopefully people check this before thinking of doing business with that guy.

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And hopefully they check this before doing business with you as well.

BassTrackerBoats said:

And hopefully they check this before doing business with you as well.

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Given almost every vendor I met here has been a scammer, I could only hope so. If someone is going to cry like a baby because of foul language they really have no place in business anyway. No disrespect meant, but needless to say I don't respect the system you oversee. It is broken. Lol.

litcircle said:

Given almost every vendor I met here has been a scammer, I could only hope so. If someone is going to cry like a baby because of foul language they really have no place in business anyway. No disrespect meant, but needless to say I don't respect the system you oversee. It is broken. Lol.

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I ignored that he was upset that you called him names but I think it was well out of line and thought to bring that up as a matter of civility.

Also, your business practices, as I mentioned more than once are terrible, and perhaps that is why you are unable to get a deal done to your satisfaction here.

I've been here for 6 years and change with very little issues and have conducted over a million dollars in business.

Use good business principles and the issues one will have are rare and not the norm.

Hah. I love this. You know nothing about me. I'm not in grade school anymore so I'm free to call people names when they've cheated me. Or even if they haven't. There's no law for being nice to weenies like that guy. Me being mean to him is the cost of him being a fraud. You won't see me apologizing. And I can assure you much worse has happened to other fraudsters. As for my business practices, I can only laugh. I will leave my career out of this discussion. I only say that I don't need to hear it from anyone about my "business practices". What I'm trying to pull off and already have is not easy or for the faint of heart.

And as for the vendors here, of the two legit ones one just takes forever to contact. He's a good dude and has done work for me. But it has nothing to do with business, it's just him being busy and being hard to reach. The other is totally solid so no complaints. And the 5 or 6 others were frauds. I'll leave the judgement on what that means to whoever is scrutinizing it.

I will say I've done business on pretty much all of these marketing and purchasing platforms. I am very good to those that are good vendors. I am not nice if you get on the wrong side. Unfortunately, too many on here have not been people operating on the right side. That being said, I also have nothing against you. I do think you developed a personal opinion very early in the thread based on screenshots that didn't pertain to this dealing. I've called out 3 scammers on here and 1 I was the first to call out (Viraff, who I had no evidence against but sometimes you just know -- EDIT: bit strange that obvious fraudster and the accused in this thread share the same name huh? lol, is that a standard name or something?). I hope you have good holidays man, and maybe remove whatever notion you have of authority and look at it from another lens that isn't so fogged by your biases. All the best.

litcircle said:

Hah. I love this. You know nothing about me. I'm not in grade school anymore so I'm free to call people names when they've cheated me. Or even if they haven't. There's no law for being nice to weenies like that guy. Me being mean to him is the cost of him being a fraud. You won't see me apologizing. And I can assure you much worse has happened to other fraudsters. As for my business practices, I can only laugh. I will leave my career out of this discussion. I only say that I don't need to hear it from anyone about my "business practices". What I'm trying to pull off and already have is not easy or for the faint of heart.

And as for the vendors here, of the two legit ones one just takes forever to contact. He's a good dude and has done work for me. But it has nothing to do with business, it's just him being busy and being hard to reach. The other is totally solid so no complaints. And the 5 or 6 others were frauds. I'll leave the judgement on what that means to whoever is scrutinizing it.

I will say I've done business on pretty much all of these marketing and purchasing platforms. I am very good to those that are good vendors. I am not nice if you get on the wrong side. Unfortunately, too many on here have not been people operating on the right side. That being said, I also have nothing against you. I do think you developed a personal opinion very early in the thread based on screenshots that didn't pertain to this dealing. I've dealt with 3 scammers on here and 1 I was the first to call out (Viraff, who I had no evidence against but sometimes you just know). I hope you have good holidays man, and maybe remove whatever notion you have of authority and look at it from another lens that isn't so fogged by your biases. All the best.

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No bias here, Boss, the ruling was based on the facts, or lack of them actually.

I've seen your business practices and they fall well short of the minimal standards as you could not even put together a proper contract in this particular case.

I ruled based on the fact that neither one of you had a way to prove the work was done or not done.

You are so dead set on calling bias that you are ignoring the free advice I gave as to how to conduct a proper business transaction.

You are correct, there is no law against calling a person a name usually so you go ahead and do that if you want. I could care less.

As to your career, I know a lot more than you think so you may want to dial it back as I'm losing patience with your attacks on me.

That's fair enough. In your shoes I'd probably also say it's a wash. And yes, you are right that I should be more scrupulous before entering a business relationship. And that I should be more transparent in my dealings throughout. Given that the situation called for a quick entrance, that wasn't really possible. But whatever. As I said before, I'm not attacking you. I'm only talking about myself and your judgement that I crossed a line or that I don't understand business. First of all, I'm a nice guy. That guy acted like a POS. I acted accordingly. Second of all, I've worked on this app for years without going to Stanford or having countless other advantages my peers have had. It's been a tough road but I've made incredible progress. It's hard to articulate how tough this is. Which is part of why I was willing to believe this vendor offering something probably too good to be true. Anyway I take insult when you lay judgement on my business understanding. And that's all. There's nothing more to say here. You seem like a good person yourself but I'd prefer you weren't so quick to judge me.

litcircle said:

That's fair enough. In your shoes I'd probably also say it's a wash. And yes, you are right that I should be more scrupulous before entering a business relationship. And that I should be more transparent in my dealings throughout. Given that the situation called for a quick entrance, that wasn't really possible. But whatever. As I said before, I'm not attacking you. I'm only talking about myself and your judgement that I crossed a line or that I don't understand business. First of all, I'm a nice guy. That guy acted like a POS. I acted accordingly. Second of all, I've worked on this app for years without going to Stanford. It's been a tough road but I've made incredible progress. It's hard to imagine how tough it is. So I take insult when you lay judgement on my business understanding. And that's all. There's nothing more to say here.

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Calling me biased is an attack... not one that makes me do more than tell you to knock it off but it certainly is. No big deal though.

This though cracks me up:

You take insult when I call out your lack of business expertise but you are fine with

"U should fuck off back to your third world shithole where you belong. Hopefully a drone will find u and and blow off your disgusting fucking head and do humanity a favor"

and

"Ur mom got raped in the asshole by a camel that's how you were born"?

If a man lives long enough...

@litcircle just listen and accept the ruling.

You are way out of line questioning @BassTrackerBoats 's methods and, to be blunt, after what you've said I am surprised you're still here.

Take this as a lesson. Make contracts, do due diligence, and act appropriately in a business setting.

Man oh man. I did accept the ruling. I even wrote I would decide the same verdict if in his shoes! And I already stated the lessons one should take away from my experience which mod also correctlypointed out. But I did nothing wrong. This is blaming the victim for rape and I felt compelled enough that I am defending myself from untrue labels.

Yes, saying those things I said to that guy were super mean. I already said they were designed to be mean. And seen by me and him. Not you in a public forum bro. Given the context of him not responding after I asked him why the links had no comments, yeah, I saw him for what he is and said mean things. As I said before they were literally designed to be insulting. Not taken literally but understood as being mean to elicit a response. He didn't respond except when called out here. Saying I don't have business understanding between two professionals is a wholly different context my guy.

BassTrackerBoats said:

Calling me biased is an attack... not one that makes me do more than tell you to knock it off but it certainly is. No big deal though.

This though cracks me up:

You take insult when I call out your lack of business expertise but you are fine with

"U should fuck off back to your third world shithole where you belong. Hopefully a drone will find u and and blow off your disgusting fucking head and do humanity a favor"

and

"Ur mom got raped in the asshole by a camel that's how you were born"?

If a man lives long enough...

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If you didn't laugh at least a little then I can't help you. And I wasn't attacking you with the bias my dude, literally having an opinion here puts me out of line haha. As I said in the last reply I see this as finished as I gave my piece. You are a good guy. Hopefully I find better vendors here in the future. The good ones are worth their weight in gold. All the best.

litcircle said:

If you didn't laugh at least a little then I can't help you. And I wasn't attacking you with the bias my dude, literally having an opinion here puts me out of line haha. As I said in the last reply I see this as finished as I gave my piece. You are a good guy. Hopefully I find better vendors here in the future. The good ones are worth their weight in gold. All the best.

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Actually, I didn't laugh.

I don't find that funny at all.

Maybe I don't think that prejudicial insults are a funny thing... could be I was raised better than that. I really don't know.

You can have an opinion, I certainly have one as does everyone else.

My actual "opinion" of this SL is that you were in the wrong but the facts presented did not give me cause to make that ruling. Neither one of you guys kept proper records so I had to go with what was proven.

Call me biased one more time though and we won't be having a civil conversation anymore.

@litcircle
@BassTrackerBoats is one of the most if not the most impartial person on the forum and definately does not favour certain members.
Just stick with his ruling and stop arguing!

Lol. Alright. I'll just take it and move on.

BassTrackerBoats said:

Actually, I didn't laugh.

I don't find that funny at all.

Maybe I don't think that prejudicial insults are a funny thing... could be I was raised better than that. I really don't know.

You can have an opinion, I certainly have one as does everyone else.

My actual "opinion" of this SL is that you were in the wrong but the facts presented did not give me cause to make that ruling. Neither one of you guys kept proper records so I had to go with what was proven.

Call me biased one more time though and we won't be having a civil conversation anymore.

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I know plenty of people of all races and creeds and love them all. I am from Los Angeles after all. And yes, I do realize your "opinion" was that I was in the wrong. All the best.

litcircle said:

And yes, I do realize your "opinion" was that I was in the wrong. All the best.

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And the basis was not your insults but your business actions; specifically these 2 points:

• You got reports and waited an unreasonable amount of time to look them over.
• You attempted to change the actual deal and say he was getting paid on performance and not on the posts.

Those are actually classic deflection moves to not pay a bill.

The insults just made me shake my head and had no part or parcel in what I thought was going on in the business transaction.