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How to do online reputation management? (ORM)

Discussion in 'Online Reputation Management (ORM)' started by Andreasx95, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Andreasx95

    Andreasx95 Newbie

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    I would like to know more about doing online reputation management.

    - What are the typical proactive activities of ORM?
    - What are the typical activities for hiding sites that gives a client a negative reputation?
    - Can you recommend anything that is worth reading? sites, articles, guides, videos, etc.
    - Can you recommend any great tools for ORM?
    - What are typically included in ORM-services?

    Thanks in advance :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2014
  2. BHopkins

    BHopkins Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    Reputation management is more than just the factual knowledge you're asking about. In my opinion and experience, it takes years before you can be confident that you'll be able to get the work done.

    If you haven't ever done any basic SEO (just assuming based on your questions), that would be the best place to start. Reputation management is very advanced SEO along with other tactics. Without an excellent handle on effective SEO and without being able to get results, you'll struggle with any reputation management clients that you are able to get. You'll do them a disservice and they won't be happy with the lack of results.

    I would suggest starting with trying to rank a site for an easy keyword, move to harder keywords and only then consider doing any work for someone else.
     
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  3. andreaissabel

    andreaissabel Registered Member

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    Being honest, interact with your costumers/followers, don't sell -> solve problems, excellent costumer service, assume the fails and fix them with facts, not with proposals or words.

    Have loyal followers that become prosumers. People that love your brand/product/company so much that rebate all negative comments with positive facts.
     
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  4. BHopkins

    BHopkins Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    I'm sorry but this has got to be the most ill-fated advice I've read on BHW in a long time. You solution for fixing a negative reputation management problem is to just try to get customers to leave positive reviews? To me, it seems like you posted to get to 15 posts rather than because you had valuable advice to offer.
     
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  5. negligence

    negligence Regular Member

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    Yeah, you see it all the time.

    ORM is an incredibly broad field and only works by directly targeting the problems a company is facing, dissolving the root of the problem, and treating the symptoms, then burying the scars. It's a full on customized campaign that should be tailored to each individual client.
     
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  6. OldSalt

    OldSalt Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    I have to say that I disagree with a good portion of your post. I'm not saying that advanced SEO wouldn't be helpful for effective ORM, but I don't see it as a prerequisite.

    The simple premise of ORM is to drastically increase the number of positive reviews simply by asking all customers to go to the review site. If you read 7878's 3 part series, you can see the basics of his method is 1) Increase positive reviews by simply asking the customer using postcards and 2) Funnel negative reviews to the manager via comments - thereby reducing at least some negative reviews.

    aka, the goal is to drown the negative reviews with positive ones. Yes, you can use advanced SEO to make this more effective, but it certainly isn't required to get started in ORM.

    I'm not saying you are wrong, you are most certainly welcome to your own opinion. I'm just am saying that there are other ways to get started.

    OS

    PS. For those that haven't seen it, part 1 of 3 of 7878's ORM series is here
     
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  7. BassTrackerBoats

    BassTrackerBoats Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    I wrote this a couple of years ago and it still has some relevancy... it may be formatted poorly here because I took it off of a PDF I was giving away for free back then so I apologize in advance for that:

    Online Reputation Management

    A guide to selling your services to clients and how to over deliver on the service.

    Online reputation management is an very hot up and coming aspect of the internet services industry that if done properly can end up making you look like a genius to your clients.

    Why is online reputation management important?
    With the world turning more and more to the internet for information one needs to have a complete variety of information from various sources so as to lay out a foundation of positive information, to give those interested in you an idea that there are a lot of individuals and groups that have encountered you and were pleased and finally to make any negative stuff get off the first pages of the search engines.
    A multitude of different sources with positive reviews and information will give the buyers of your clients products or services more of a reason to do business with them as opposed to the company that has a thin positive background.
    How do you sell a client?
    First thing is you have to create a sense of need for the client as many people have not even thought of that as an industry. Share with them some of these facts:
    Almost nobody uses a telephone book to find a number or a business anymore. You may see them used in very rural areas where the internet is spotty but that is few and far between. Also many families do not even have home service so they do not get one delivered as it was in previous times.
    So they got to the internet to look up a phone number or to find a particular type of business. If you have spotty things on the internet or if you have very little on the internet that lauds and applauds the client and the competition has a handful or even a bunch guess who has the better shot at getting the business?
    The other guy.
    If you have had an issue and are listed on a site such as ripoffreport.com you need to bury that negative information with a slew of positive information from a variety of places. There is no way to stop others from posting negative stuff on the social media platforms either so you need to counter that even if it has not happened because chances are at some point someone will come along and post negative things and that will cost
    .
    .
    you money.
    Rare is the business owner that is fine with the competition taking money out of his cash register... in fact I would go past rare and say there is not one out there. Google, Bing and the other search engines are the new telephone book and they are a thousand times more comprehensive that a phone book ever was and a thousand times more effective.
    Spending your advertising dollars on a yellow page ad is a kin to buying ads and posting them on the inside of your back yard fence... the only person that is going to see that is you and your not the demographic you are targeting.
    I bet that you didn't know that 80% of the searchers research online before buying in an 10 ? 20 mile radius. 80%!
    Where were cell phones 20 years ago?
    We had them but they were extremely limited in their functions. You could make a call or you could receive a call... sometimes.
    Today cell phones are everywhere and they have a plethora of functions. The mobile advertising industry is exploding exponentially with all the functionality of the current smart phones and the internet is searched more on a cell phone than one would imagine.
    There are over 1.2 billion (Yes, BILLION) mobile web users world wide and it's not all fun and games. Over 50% of the people use their mobile phone to choose a restaurant, a car dealership, a bank as well as any other business or industry you can think of and if you are not online and online is a positive way you are potentially missing out on tens of thousands of dollars.
    With about 7 billion people in the world you could be missing out on 1 of every 7 person that is looking for your business per the US Census Bureau as of March 27th, 2012. Do the math and figure out how much more revenue your company would have with an increase of 14% more customers.
    80% of the people use the internet to research before buying in a 10 ? 20 mile radius and over 50% of those people are using a mobile device.
    .
    . And that is today as the mobile market is only going to get bigger.
    Mr./Mrs./Miss Business owner, get on board and get on board fast.
    How do we go about giving a client solid online reputation management?
    Google Places.
    Get your client listed on Google Places (www.google.com/places) firstly. Google Places ranks incredibly high and it is possible for buyers of your clients products or services to leave reviews. When setting up the Google Places listing be sure to add in images, video and every other field available. The more complete the listing the better it will rank. Also make sure that the description has in it the Keyword you want to rank for as that does indeed matter as to ranking about the other guys.
    Black hat method if you choose:
    Once you have the listing in place you then add a variety of reviews using assorted Google accounts and different IP addresses. Drip feed the reviews over a period of time and randomize the times the reviews are left as well as the time between reviews.
    White hat method if you choose:
    Tags. Google now sells advertising for your Google Places listing and calls them tags and it is essentially a little yellow arrow below your listing. You can point that to a few different things but your best bang for the buck is going to be pointing that to the posts that Google allows you to have... the micro blog posts of 100 characters. You'll see a small box on the top right hand corner that you can add your posts and will display the first 22 characters of your Google Places listing and if someone wants to read the rest of the post they have to click through to your places page.
    Why is that good?
    Change the post daily... make it interesting enough that people will come back and see
    .
    . what you have going on now... a new product line, a new service or a special on something that day/week can draw people to your places page often and leave nice reviews for you because of the value you are offering. Remember the majority of the people online are not aware that you are actually doing all you can to market your business.
    A complete Google Places listing with images and video and a bunch of positive reviews will get your site higher up in the places listing and the places listings are almost always on top in Google.
    Linkedin.
    Get your client listed on linkedin and submit the url to Google and backlink the url as well. Be sure to set your profile to public so the search engines have the opportunity to crawl it. Set the url to be linkedin.com/BusinessName. Now you want to optimize the page using all the fields and semi keyword stuff the page so it is piced up by the linkedin searches as well as Google and the other search engines. I also typically hit the profile with backlinks as well in order to make sure that it is treated a bit better than your average optimized profile.
    FaceBook
    If Facebook was a country it would be the 3rd most populated country in the world. Get your client on FB and get his page active and make it public. Add content on a regular basis and backlink the FB page. Have his FB page print on his receipts and have a link to it from his main site. If he advertises on local media make sure that he mentions his FB page in the advertising... in short make it an active page so that it ranks in Google. An active FB page will trump a lot of other pages online and works wonders for Reputation Management.
    YouTube
    If you are not using YouTube for your clients you are doing them a serious disservice. YouTube Videos can be ranked quite easily and can grab 10% of that first page real estate on Google without much effort. Make some nice videos for the client lauding and applauding him or his company, tag that video with plenty of long tailed keywords, e.g. shop at Joe's Store, deals at Joe's Store, Joe's Store Hours etc.
    After you have the videos up for a week or so then get some views to them (fiverr!) as well as hit it with some mild backlinking. I would not get more than 40 50 views a week initially. Don't blast it with Xrumer or ScrapeBox or some such thing... hit it with some Wikis or other mild backlinks. Get those links indexed suing your favorite service such as lindexed.com and wait a while.
    Once the videos are up for a month or so then you can do some real SEO to them and push them into the front page of Google. Slam them with scrape box blasts if you want and continue to add views and you'll see them take over page 1.
    These Videos are yours and not your clients so make sure that you have them in a channel that you own. If the client fails to pay you have the opportunity to take them down in one fell swoop or if the client wants to own them at some point you have another income opportunity.
    Twitter
    If he does not have a twitter account he needs one yesterday. Set up an account for him and send out tweets on a regular basis. Be sure to mention Joe's Store in the tweets as you are tweeting away. Just as with FB, make sure his clients are aware that he has that twitter account and get them to follow him once they find out. It's not real hard for him to get those kinds of followers if he has special offers for only those that are on twitter and can bring in the ?special coupon code? for discounts and deals.
    In addition to the legit followers get many others using the variety of techniques that folks use to get followers (best one is to follow others and they usually follow back). Build the account up so that there is a little army of followers and retweeters and you'll see some of that build his reputation online.
    Be sure to backlink those tweets also.. you can just toss them in Scrape Box if you want along with your FB and Myspace pages. Use a LOT of different anchor texts when you are doing that though so as not to leave any kind of silly footprint.
    MySpace
    Myspace, seriously? Yeah, seriously... set up a myspace account and make it content rich as well as keyword rich. The account should, of course, be myspace.com/client and treat it similiarly as you were the FB page except don't worry about his clients seeing it
    because nobody really cares... except Google. Myspace pages can rank very nicely in Google and that is one more piece of front page real estate that you can grab without a ton of effort at all.
    Web 2.0 Properties
    Do not forget the power of Web 2.0 properties when doing online reputation management. They can certainly rank and will absolutely "clog" up the search engines for your clients. Clientname.Web2.0.com s a great way to have a lot of positive information on your client in Google et. al. and you do not have to be content heavy which is real nice. A 700 - 800 word article that is keyword rich and uses h1, h2 and h3 tags as well as the <strong> tag for the keyword (your client's company name) goes a long way in protecting your client.
    Don't leave it at that though... update those properties on a regular basis with new unique (spun is fine) content and be sure to backlink the content as well. An active Web 2.0 property can rank very nicely for a long time and links to it would seem very natural to Google IF it is updated periodically.
    How many Web 2.0s should you build?
    As many as it takes but you would be well served by 40 ? 50 and be sure to hit all the usual suspects... Wordpress, Blogger, Hubpages, Squidoo etc.
    Article Directories
    Article directories do not have the clout they used to have and for good reason as they were used and abused by folks for years but they do have their place in the reputation management society. People still go to them to read articles... with a proper keyword rich well written article you can still rank and if you have no outbound link in the article you are better yet.
    Write a 700+ word KW rich article discussing the pros businesses similar to Joe's Store and submit it to Ezinearticles.com without the name of your client in the title. Do not mention Joe's Store at all in the article but make it a generic article about that industry. In the Bio or Resource box you can be promotional and get Joe's Store in there 2X. The longer the article the longer they allow you to have for your resource box so keep that in

    mind.
    Once you have the article in Ezine, spin that puppy and put it in a tool such as AMR and publish it everywhere you can making sure it is spun properly.
    Press Releases
    This is quite possibly my favorite method of reputation management because it is so easy and looks so good to a client. Write one decent length press release about an aspect of the business (700 ? 800 words... seeing a trend yet?) and make sure the title has the Joe's Store in it and the keyword density is 1.5 ? 1.9% in the press release. Submit it initially to prlog.org. You'll need an account there and you'll need to use a legit email as they do not allow throw away emails for account sign ups.
    When you set the account up they allow you to choose a city, choose New York as you'll get a better ranking in Google as well as set up a ?Press Room? to have your press releases published. When publishing the article they allow you to choose 3 categories. Those categories you are going to choose are Advertising, Banking and Finance as they get the most run on that site and will rank better because of it.
    Write a nice business profile using your keyword and put that in the the business profile section and be sure to add in keyword rich tags. Also in your summary be sure that you have Joe's Store in there as well so that you get that little extra keyword bump. As to the summary many people just grab the first paragraph of the press release and that is such a waste of opportunity. Don't be lazy, write a little summary as it only takes a few minutes and will aid in ranking the PR.
    From here you can submit the same press release to a variety of free PR sites or do what I do which is put it in the best spinner and get a bunch of unique press releases out there.. some will rank and some won't as that is the nature of the beast.
    Rinse and repeat this process on a regular basis.
    EMD Domains
    Exact Match Domains seem like a no brainer but is often overlooked in the reputation management industry. Buy each and every extension as well as any reasonably expected misspellings for your client.
    Be sure to buy the .mobi extension and absolutely, positively, 100% make sure that you make the site functional on an ipad, droid and a smart phone.
    Build the sites with proper on site SEO and do minor off site SEO for them and you should be golden. What I have found to be very effective is to have a site that is not very thin like you see out there but a 15 - 20 page site so you have opportunity to rank your clients' inner pages as well as the root domain. Again h1, h2 and h3 tags as well as the <strong> tag for his name or company name.
    Again I would go with longer articles (700 ? 800) words as well as add in images that are named the company name as well. Images rank as well so use that as part of your on site SEO. Imbed your YouTube videos in the pages as well and backlink the inner pages as soon as you make them.
    If you are using Word Press (which I suggest) to build the sites be sure vary the theme for each one and do not have the same plugins on each site and host them on different IP addresses as well and use a huge ping like the one that is offered here for free:
    http://www.mediafire.com/view/?beopaip2rqq2e26
    You own the sites, not the client... he is renting them. If he wants to own them you have an opportunity for additional revenue once again.
    I brought up specific sites like Myspace, Facebook, Twitter and such as specific sites but you want to expand that if the above is not cutting it for your client. You want to do the same with Flickr, Tumblr, Technorati, Digg and all the assorted social bookmarking sites as well. Some of the social bookmarking sites may only rank for a short period of time and that is fine since you are going to be building the other sites for long term benefits and you will need some short term rankings to help out as you are building your long term sites and the more your client sees his name online the merrier he will be.
    So basically what you can see happening is that we are generating a bunch of unique content and placing that content on different platforms taking up all the real estate you possibly can and hiding any ?bad? information that may be out there on the internet that is hurting your client and affecting his income.
    Be sure to have NO OUTBOUND LINKS on any of the properties you are building no
    .
    . matter how tempting it is. You are not doing SEO you are doing reputation management and outbound links will take a bit away from the strength of the sites. You want to take up as much real estate on the first few pages of Google for your client and you want as much of what you write to be positive as well as informative about his business.
    Save every link that you build on every site whether it is one that you own (the EMDs) or any of the properties that you build for him on other sites.
    At random various times send backlinks to them, hit them with social bookmarks, throw them in an indexing tool so the bots revisit, scrape box blast them with a huge variety of anchor texts... the actual anchor texts are not overly important as much as it is important that the backlinks ?remind? Google that the sites are not orphaned and that people are interested in what is written on them and want to share them with friends and family the world over.
    This is probably more of an outline than a specific method and you'll find other ways to add to the process I use and should certainly implement them as you serve your client.
     
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  8. alexdb7

    alexdb7 Newbie

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    ORM is a great service to supplement other creative and marketing services. If you are trying to get your foot into the industry I would start with web design. Work with people you already know (friends and family) to get your feet wet. Try craigslist and other sites to find freelance design work. From then I would try and expand your knowledge of SEO/ORM and so on.
     
  9. johnkeets1

    johnkeets1 Regular Member

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    I use ORM service and it give me great results try one "brandsreputation.com"
     
  10. lostgringos

    lostgringos Senior Member

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    ORM has many faces. Basic ORM is pretty cut and dry. Drive all the negative content off the 1st and 2nd page of Google's Search Engines Results Page (SERPs). You can do this by exploiting Web 2.0 properties. For example, create a nof``ow blog and use that to propagate one property on the 1st page. You simply create positive content using very targeted keywords. You will need a number of these properties.

    Don't get hung up on do```llow properties for your Web 2.0's in terms of the properties you want to exploit. In many cases the nof~~~ow properties are best in the beginning.

    You want to select 20 high PR authoritative properties 1st that are no~~~ow
    Dress them up and create keyword specific content you want to rank for.
    Spin that content really good and it use again and again. Remember to always change the title and try to change the structure of the content. If you want you can change the dimensions on your images and the pitch etc., on the music you use on the videos you create. A few subtle changes will make things look unique in Google's eyes.

    Submit at least 3 images with your content.

    Submit at least one video with you content

    Create a Facebook account and create at least 5 Fan Pages (take advantage of their vanity URLs). Facebook Fan Page PR 10 nf. Perfect for ORM

    Create a Twitter account using some of the keywords. Learn how to max your results!

    Create a LinkedIn account and promote it from within.

    Link out to authority sites like Wikipedia.

    Fire up GSR and put in all of your URLs.

    Fire up Scrapebox and build a current and effective list of URLs to build your links to.

    Save the urls you scrape from Scrapebox to a file and upload it to GSR. Make sure you clean the links really well. GSR will function better and you will save some of the wear and tear on you proxies.

    Get yourself a good VPS where you can run all of this 24/7 on "drip feed."

    Get some really fast private proxies. Get some really fast private proxies (can't say this enough!)

    Find yourself a good software to track your success.

    Anyone can do this but not many want to do it correctly as it takes time and effort to do a professional job. It is important that your posts stick and the properties you create for this purpose are developed with longevity in mind. Don't create these properties for the single purpose of pushing negative content off the 1st page of the SERPs. These properties should look professional and should provide decent content. Some of these properties should be built to actually promote your client's business/brand. So take that into consideration.

    Some of you have already thought of other ways that are not so ethical to accomplish this. But you are not on the right track if you want your client to refer you to other people. Especially if you want to build a reputation in this business for being honest. Devious and unethical tactics could actually cause your client more damage and make you look foolish.

    I have done this for a living and even had a gig a few years back with BHW.

    Remember you are not trying to rank a website on the 1st page of Google. You are trying to rank approximately 20 Web 2.0 properties on the 1st two pages! And, you will need to determine whether the damage done to a persons reputation is acute or chronic!

    The key when selling your service is in the process that takes place and what is left behind. For example, you may be able to actually generate some good Google Adsense income for your client with some of these properties. Think long term. Your properties, if you build them correctly with stand the test of time. They will create a layer of protection for your client and possibly generate a nice income from various affiliated sources on the properties you use.

    Are there more pieces to this puzzle? Of course!
     
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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
  11. gary2

    gary2 Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    you need to have presence on the relevant web pages
    social media accounts are important too
    Blog seriously and the content needs to be good
    Apologize for any mistakes and listen to the criticism
     
  12. lostgringos

    lostgringos Senior Member

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    I feel compelled to go over the idea of df and nf here for newbies. Let's take Wordpress.com for example which has a PR of 9 and is df. Just a little tip here for anyone wanting to use this great property for their SEO/ORM campaign. Do not put in any links in the in the initial stages of building your blog. Not in the content or in your profile! Leave it nice and clean and go back in about 20 days and put your links in at that time. That time frame can vary for inserting your links. I often leave out the header image initially too. I want to leave it very basic until it has been reviewed and accepted.

    Ok, let's say you have been cautious and you have waited for awhile before inserting any of your links. You put in, say one link to your website or to another Web 2.0 property. You are trying pass some juice onto to those properties so that they will rank well in the SERPs. You are using Wordpress.com as a tier 1 site to pass juice along to your website or you can pass this juice along to another property. The basic tactic here is to beef up you Wordpress blog so that it will in turn pass juice to the links (properties), you want to target. You are using the df feature in Wordpress to do this.

    Understand that your blog on Wordpress.com will not be a PR 9. That is the Pagerank in the root domain only. But you will have a blog on an authoritative website and that in itself goes a long way.

    Note that the more outbound links the more that juice will be shared and the weaker it becomes. Less is better when it comes to linking to other properties from you blog/site! And, you may also lose your property if you chose to add to many links. So don?t be greedy.

    On the other hand, what happens when you do not incorporate outbound links into you Wordpress blog at all? What happens when you use another df blog to pass its juice on to your Wordpress blog? Remember no juice is leaving your df Wordpress blog! You are no longer using a blog from Wordpress.com as a tier 1 property. You are now using it as blog/website all on its own!

    There is a strong chance that your Wordpress blog will rank well in the SERPS and that this will happen fast. If you do this correctly you may have a Wordpress blog show up on the 1st page in Google's SERPs in a very short time and stay there for a long time. Making it stick and staying for a long time is the key to success when it comes to SEO/ORM IMHO.

    So in one instance you want to pass juice on and in the other you want to keep that juice to yourself and not share it. It really depends on where you want to go with your SEO/ORM. And you can use a df property in two ways! But you can only use a nf property one way!

    TEST: Do not link out of your df property for 30 days while you build links to it. Add new content each week. Use GSR and drip feed your links to your blog. Link out to your website at the end of the 30 days. Do not use any indexing/pinging programs. Let Google find it naturally.

    I hope that this helps some of you who have been struggling with this concept.

    If you find I have made a mistake here or that I am incorrect with anything I have said here please feel free to comment. We are all here to learn and nobody is perfect.
     
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  13. MikeHustle

    MikeHustle Power Member

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    I want to become a solution center and brand myself as such. For me this means creating an authority site based on all my business interests and to exist everywhere.
     
  14. BHopkins

    BHopkins Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    I think that is a great idea. It allows you to change with the market. If people are looking for something in particular, you can put up an offer and immediately capitalize on that market segment.
     
  15. TeKn1qu3z

    TeKn1qu3z Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    For local SEO try to get reviews on all the popular review websites like yelp
     
  16. Nauman K

    Nauman K Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Occupation:
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    Very informative thread...helped me alot.

    Thanks
     
  17. araqueli

    araqueli Power Member

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    for one client of mine who had a few bad reviews, from one pissed client...really lunatic...

    He owns an hotel in the mountains in south america, a pretty nice one, I ve been there 3 times... this job was long ago before tripadvisor and all those websites became popular but it may work.

    I registered many domains in his niche, I even find a gem, and put content on it , and stuffed kws like "my client bad review" "opinions of my clients hotel" "my client scam" etc
    and some web 2.0, and facebook fan page.

    there were 2 sites I couldnt bring down to 2nd or 3rd page, coz they were laser targeted, like "hotel xyz review or scam" . one was and youtube video this lunatic uploaded , he was crazy about the room not having wifi and some other shit.... well , I must admit... I did negative seo, youtube is owned by google and if you fired tons of xrumer links all at once to a video with 500 views and pretty new... it would go down... plus I flagged it too and used a crappy viewer increaser to make YT ban the video. And pay a lot of ppl to comment in the video that the hotel was cool. Also uploaded 20 videos for the hotel covering all possible bad kws.

    ROR was a hard nut... took me several months... did everything you can imagine... and finally got it in 2nd page.... also told my client to refund this lunatic and give him some free days... which the client refused...

    my 2 cents.
     
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  18. kalios

    kalios Junior Member

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    This is kind of related to the original question but more aimed at some of the ORM techniques mentioned here as I think it's possibly relevant to talk about in relation to that. I wonder how long it will be before Google starts cracking down on Blackhat methods being used for ORM, before the 'figure it out' and start negating the effects that ORM has for the companies being 'managed' and just negate those sites that you are trying to fix.
     
  19. BHopkins

    BHopkins Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    It's been about 15 years and they still haven't put SEO's out of business.
     
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  20. warriorpoet

    warriorpoet Junior Member

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    Old Salt, perchance do you still have a copy of the "white paper" 7878 had available at that time and the PSD files? Much appreciated if you could share with me. Thanks. Thanks for the link and post.