Does White Hat SEO even exist?

The whole concept of seo in the first place is black hat, your trying to manipulate the way you rank in google...some people just go more bh than others!

Even whitehat SEO if over optimized can start to be considered blackhat, one good example is if google notices you over optimize like getting the keyword densities just right etc, it sounds crazy but that is the way it is, i think content is king if you write for the reader, you have good content and traffic you will climb the SERPs

white hat: sucks!
blackhat: rulezzz :cow_yello

WH does exists... It's when all your BH operations are well disguised
Really good BH SEO is SEO you can't track but boosts you up in the rankings
WH exists and you can't only position a site on the long run only using BH, you've got to legitimate it through WH that you'll obtain faster thanks to BH techniques (like unique and quality content generation)
Clear enough ?

What id like to know is... why hats? why not socks, or jeans?

Errr anyway.
I think the SERPS game changes so much, a lot of people dont know if what they are doing is whitehat or blackhat anymore, Especially if your a WH SEO, Black hatters just tend not to really care and get on with what they think is going to work.

general_z said:

@litenup: Yes, those are common things people tend to say but they all lack a true definition which of course is great for those SEO firms that can hide behind the word "White Hat" (if there wasn't any made up definition like White Hat SEO they would have a problem).

@dirtbag: In your mind, great. However then it's as you say - a loose definition and then it isn't a real definition.

SEO - Search Engine Optimization is still based on different types of tricks to FOOL search engines and make your site more relevant to a keyword then it really is. This is the core of any type of SEO practice, white hat, grey hat, pink hat or whatever-hat you choose.

White Hat should be;
1. Having a compliant and well coded website (which will make it play well with SE's anyway since they actually like well coded websites that has standards in mind).
2. Nothing more.

Thus all White Hat tricks should be considered Black Hat and thus leaving the market for White Hat quite non-existent and therefor i argue that White Hat is really just a stupid expression and that "SEO" in its every form should be considered Black Hat and that this "Blackhat" and "Whitehat" should go bury itself and that new, clear definitions should arise from its ashes.

Not that it would save the world or anything, it just bothers me that these definitions are so extremely loose and abused by especially SEO firms.

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That's not true, and that's where the line is kinda drawn. A basic ideology of White hat SEO is quality, written and genuine content for your website, whiles many BH techniques do not [cloaking, scrapers,etc] . White Hat SEO is not about fooling, but optimizing, Blackhat SEO is about fooling, and Grey hat is about optimizing the white hat way whiles including some sneaky blackhat tricks within your site at the same time.

All great Black Hatters know White Hat techniques. In my opinion, some White Hat SEO practices and even black hat fit into a grey hat area. I am not a true believer of white or black within any context of the terms. Is rewriting someones articles truly white? Is posting every single blog post to social bookmarking sites truly white? Is tagging a customer for tracking purposes truly black?

I believe alot of techniques used to gain advantage and traffic in the online marketing realm can be considered "grey area". Too many people however want a definitive "yes or no", "black or white" answer though. If you stay in SEO long enough, you will find that many of the gurus we worship today as White Hat experts are using a ton of Grey Hat and Black Hat methods along with their White Hat arsenal.

My answer would be to use ALL Hats to get to the point you want to get to the quickest!

White hat seo - taking advantage of the search engines using their own rules

Black hat seo - taking advantage of the search engines by breaking / bending certain rules

loophole said:

Hey general, I agree with bpaw.

Whitehat is when you listen to Google, and Blackhat is when you enter through the backdoor

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Actually, I disagree with that one completely.

They are nothing more than a phone book in the way they function. Sure, it has a purpose but if you think as a whitehat marketer that I am an ass-kisser, you are mistaken.

Everyone has their own opinion of what it means to them but for me, it is simple. I don't break the rules nor the law. I use the system against itself.
Take the TOS agreement of a target company and use their own rules and regulations against them.

If their are rules posted, I stay within those rules, yes but I also work by the means outside of their rules as well...if they don't have a policy against it, it's fair game.

It's not about going in and breaking the rules as much as making the rules that aren't their restricted rules of practice my rules of profit. I don't break the rules or the law for that matter, nor do I harm anyone. It's about making money and lots of it.

As for Google, they suck and are nothing more than a freakin' phone book or business card listing for my business. They don't matter to me because only 5% of my profits comes from natural search.

Traffic comes in 3 main funnels for me from the engines:

1. Research/ Feedback - Information on what people are searching for and where.

2. Repeat Business - Recall to find a site by keyword or direct domain link.

3. Natural Search - Random keyword association by someone looking for a specific product or service.


Sounds common but it's not due to the fact that the other 95% of my business comes in from other places. So, there isn't any time that I listen to google because I already know what it takes to get there over and over again by them coming to me instead of wasting my productive time on my business trying to please them.


Undestand, it isn't about breaking the restrictions they post in their TOS, it's about using techniques that aren't in there. That's where the real money is.

Simple solution to that is to make your site relevant without keyword saturation. As a rule of thumb, I don't even menthon my keywords in my sites, ever. Using relevant phrasing makes that obsolete.

I don't ever submit a site to google. I let them find me. They are a business card service. They serve a purpose but my business is NEVER directed at them for a major income source. They are a freakin' research tool and directory.

The more you chase google, the lower you go in the rankings. Make them come to you because your site demands that kind of attention, not because you want it ranked. Focus on the content and once you do that, you can post as many ads on that sucker as you want, in every page and they will not drop you for it.

Personally, I don't like nor use adwords, as I don't pay for advertising. It's not neccessary. As for the clickthrough of having paid ads on your site, great to do but I'm not one to bend over a dollar to pick up a dime.

Keep it simple and make them come to you. If you are promoting your site for ppc, it is only going to get you as far as the click interest will go. Joel Comm makes his living posting sites for ppc money only. The reason he is making a few $100k/year is due to the fact that he populates for content.

You have to do the same thing. If the person landing on your site doen't read the first article you offer, then they will close your page without clicking through anything and go back to the original search...not cliking your ppc ads.

People relate content to content by association...hense why every bad site is linked to the fellow bad site and none of them make money.

Funny thing is that they offer free tools to do what?... ' automate your connection to them. ' Submission programs, promotional programs, advertising programs...all of it automated. They are targetting anything automated that is related to cookie stuffing or spam content posting. If you use the method I've posted here, it will completely eliminate that problem.

Sorry to the guys that spam and cookie stuff, it's the same deal for you guys, it'll tank you like a brick.

scriptkiddy said:

Not true. Google do care about their TOS and do enforce it:

Google's TOS say you cant access their site via automated means, if you are detected they will block your IP (at least for a while)

Site banning is not really to do with TOS but webmaster guidelines:

A site can be banned by Google for simply having too many keywords or messpellings on a page - been there done that

A site can be banned after a manual review just because they think it doesn't contain enough content but has affiliate links (thin affiliate sites) - been there done that too.

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