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Contemplating the Universe.

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by jasgrey, Jul 15, 2014.

  1. jasgrey

    jasgrey Junior Member

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    I'm going to try to keep this simple. I'm hoping that someone possessing depth of mind chimes in and gives me a good concept to ponder.

    We, as humans, can not comprehend the end. Nor can we grasp the concept of the beginning, as it pertains to a time before our existence. All we can understand is that we exist now and have existed since our earliest memory. We may acknowledge history, but we can not comprehend absolute boundaries in time or matter.

    Since I was a stoner kid back in high-school up until around 2011, I pondered this idea of boundaries. Time must have began at some point and all things in existence must have some end. But, at the same time, time could not have never existed and there can be no end to all that exists.

    I guess what this really boils down to is the idea of nothing. And this is what I want your opinion on.

    Time. Before time started, what was there? Nothing? At the end of time, what will there be? Nothing? If there were a time when nothing existed, then the creation of time could not have happened, as there was nothing to do so. At the end of time, be it by whatever cause, our clocks may not exist anymore, nor our man-made calculations of seconds, minutes, hours, and days that make up time, but as our concept of time merely measures ongoing existence, the end of time would have to signify the end of existence, which would ultimately mean that everything had become nothing.

    The Universe. Before the Universe, which contains all that exists, what was there? No existence? Nothing? And at the end of the Universe, what exists? I've read that the Universe grows, which means it must have boundaries. For boundaries to exist, there must be a shape, and for the Universe to have a shape, there must be an outside force that shapes it. Furthermore, if that were not true, I, as a human, still can not comprehend that there is an end to the Universe. As I can not understand the idea of nothing. If the Universe had a wall at the end... what would be beyond that wall? If that barrier was said to be unbreakable, what would happen, theoretically, if you could break it and get past it?

    That being said, it all must end somewhere, as far as matter goes. Even if there is something outside of our Universe, it must be contained in something, as well. But, although I can't comprehend the end or nothingness, neither can I understand infinity. Thus, I can't grasp the idea that what holds our Universe is held by something that is held by something that is held by something, and so on infinitely.



    Does anyone have any ideas, theories? Can anyone even tell me what the hell I'm talking about, because thinking about it scrambles my mind so badly that I get quite lost in it. -_-
     
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  2. LakeForest

    LakeForest Supreme Member

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    We haven't even figured out what happens after we go to sleep, let alone after we die. Now the universe? Gosh.

    I've heard it refered to as the veil(THE VEIL) and when you remove one, like when some principles of gravity were discovered, you are confronted with another veil. It's veils all the way down.

    Don't get caught up in the not knowing, that's no good.
     
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  3. stharthjw6j

    stharthjw6j BANNED BANNED

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    Yep, it could be that "nothing" is another dimension we can't perceive (but then what's beyond that?), or it may literally be nothing. Our puny minds can't perceive it, and I too am fascinated by what's outside the universe: Some say the universe is infinite, infinity is also something mind-blowing the more you try to think about it. And if the universe is not infinite, what's outside it??!!

    I'd like to see what's outside it and experience this nothing, if it really is nothingness, after being amazed by it, I'd probably quickly get bored, if you know what I mean by "quickly".
     
  4. DanDanger

    DanDanger Junior Member

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    Sounds to me like you want to read up on string theory.

     
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    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2016
  5. LakeForest

    LakeForest Supreme Member

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    The current models haven't held up to scrutiny and they're reorganizing|rethinking the idea.

    The basis is there logically, but it hasn't worked how we thought it did so far.
     
  6. Trepanated

    Trepanated Supreme Member

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    Interestingly they have just figured out why we need to sleep.

    During the day our brain is working constantly and in the process it produces waste/toxins (a bit like when we work out our muscles produce lactic acid).

    Sleep is the process by which we flush the toxins out of the brain.

    It seems therefore that not getting enough sleep will have long-term detrimental effects and it could possibly be a contributory factor in things like dementia, alzheimer's and a host of other illnesses.
     
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  7. LakeForest

    LakeForest Supreme Member

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    Absolutely, I'm glad they finally found proof of what people have been thinking for years.

    In regards to Alzheimer's, there is growing speculation and consensus that our brains work like a computer, as I'm sure you're aware. It seems that Alzheimer's causes the brain to lose the ability to clear out short-term memory, comparable to RAM, and the brain gets bogged and overloaded. What do we do when our computer is slow because it's bogged down and can't engage in a new process?: We restart it. We can't do that with our brains as easily yet, but it seems to be that the clearing of our short-term memory, with the aid of certain chemicals, has been seen as beneficial in prevention and mitigation of alzheimers.

    Alzheimer's, some think, occurs when the brain has no more processing ability to forget and replace information, and that seems to be because the short-term memory isn't allowing for anything else to occur.

    Sleep makes sense. Sleep is wonderful and refreshing. But what happens to us when we sleep? What is sleep? I wonder if we will ever find out.

    What interests me is the fact that studies have shown we do not understand why we're awake so often during the day when compared to other animals. We should be sleeping far more than we do, but we don't, and no one knows why. And it gets more confusing when you see that studies have shown bodies operate the best on 6-7 hours of sleep. It's all so contradictory.

    Brains, man, what a trip.
     
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  8. bluehatface

    bluehatface Regular Member

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    Well humans can only percept 3 dimensions (x/y/z) plus time. Before the universe was created, these dimensions didn't exist, therefore it's always going to be unfathomable.

    Regards expansion, the matter in the universe is expanding into the nothingness. The univese is finite, but the nothing that it expands into is not.

    If the current universe in unfathomable, have you read about the multiverse theory? Or the 12 (I think) dimensions that have been observed. And the double slit experiment... I love this stuff!

    Onto nothingness, I've recently read 'nothing' by new scientist. Generally, there is always somthing in nothing.
     
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  9. jasgrey

    jasgrey Junior Member

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    Yes, they looked at the stars and thought that they were contained in or planet and there was nothing outside. Now, we know we're in the Universe and "nothing is outside".

    Pacman is programmed to be infinite in the way that going off one side of the screen brings you in on the other. It's a programmed shape with the variable of fluidity allowing him to kind of transport to the opposing side. The shape, though, is defined by something bigger; the program. Which is possessed by the computer, in your room, in your house, in your city, in your state, in your country, in your continent, in your planet, in it's respective galaxy, in the Universe, in...

    The Pacman background/map thing is kind of like a cylinder. Ultimately, it's a circle and the left and right wall actually connect on this cylinder. Thus, reaching the end of the Universe and being back at the beginning would imply that it is simple a circle; a shape that is the product of outside forces.
     
  10. LakeForest

    LakeForest Supreme Member

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    Except that we know more exists on the edges of the pacman screen. We can stand there.

    The universe could be like that too: a cylinder with a non-compatible and impassable boundary for us. Imagine if pacman spilled off the screen into our physical world.

    Could imply this is all a simulated program within another construct. Who knows?
     
  11. Trepanated

    Trepanated Supreme Member

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    I never understand why people obsess about what happens after we die.

    We are all going to find out at some point.

    Until that point we are alive, so just get on with being alive.
     
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  12. Techxan

    Techxan Elite Member

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    TEXAS (you have to yell, its the law.)
    Time. Before time started, what was there? Nothing?

    There is no "before there was time" Even before this universe burst into being, it was a speck of dust that existed in space. Humans have developed the term "time" as a convenience to themselves.

    At the end of time, what will there be? Nothing? If there were a time when nothing existed, then the creation of time could not have happened, as there was nothing to do so.

    There will never be an end of time, even if all the life in all the universe ceased to exist, "time" will continue to pass. here will only be and end to OUR time

    At the end of time, be it by whatever cause, our clocks may not exist anymore, nor our man-made calculations of seconds, minutes, hours, and days that make up time, but as our concept of time merely measures ongoing existence, the end of time would have to signify the end of existence, which would ultimately mean that everything had become nothing.

    our man-made calculations of seconds, minutes, hours, and days that make up time:

    This is not what makes up time, this is how we calculate the passage of time. Time is made up of all the movement in the universe that has passed in a linear fashion.

    As our concept of time merely measures ongoing existence, the end of time would have to signify the end of existence, which would ultimately mean that everything had become nothing.

    You went wonky here. The end of time will never come, only the end of our time. The end of our time simply means that WE no longer exist. Everything that is not us will be cruising along just fine.

    The Universe. Before the Universe, which contains all that exists, what was there? No existence? Nothing?

    The Universe clearly does not contain all that exists. Quantum physics has shown us that, and uin fact black holes show us that. Not to mention the concept of the multiverse. Before the big bang, the universe was a speck of dust, it may have been one of many, but our universe was simply one speck.

    And at the end of the Universe, what exists? I've read that the Universe grows, which means it must have boundaries. For boundaries to exist, there must be a shape, and for the Universe to have a shape, there must be an outside force that shapes it.

    Quite the contrary, the big bang is blasting it out into the void of space, the shape being formed by the pressure of the blast of the big bang. When the power of the blast dissipates the universe quits expanding. I believe there are sections pf space where this is occurring, and if I remember right, some contraction is also occurring.

    Furthermore, if that were not true, I, as a human, still can not comprehend that there is an end to the Universe. As I can not understand the idea of nothing. If the Universe had a wall at the end... what would be beyond that wall? If that barrier was said to be unbreakable, what would happen, theoretically, if you could break it and get past it?

    The end of the universe is the area where the debris of the big blast ceases to populate the void of space. There is no wall.

    That being said, it all must end somewhere, as far as matter goes. Even if there is something outside of our Universe, it must be contained in something, as well. But, although I can't comprehend the end or nothingness, neither can I understand infinity. Thus, I can't grasp the idea that what holds our Universe is held by something that is held by something that is held by something, and so on infinitely.

    Then you are without imagination, just like an amoeba.

    Does anyone have any ideas, theories? Can anyone even tell me what the hell I'm talking about, because thinking about it scrambles my mind so badly that I get quite lost in it.

    I think you need to do a little less thinking and a lot more critical thinking.

    Reading more would be a good idea too.


     
  13. ShadeDream

    ShadeDream Elite Member

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    He who laughs last, laughs longest.
    It's an interesting topic, can be contemplated in a multitude of ways.

    Check out Alan Watts, don't judge just listen, a very interesting guy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssf7P-Sgcrk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRrCYPxD0I

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfIYGaslVnA

    If you think about it it's scary but it's beautiful, it's mind boggling yet simple.


    Also check this out, and the related people:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8YwnVelFm8


    The possibilities are endless, if you start thinking too deep you can go crazy.
     
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  14. redrubies

    redrubies Supreme Member

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    The Christian theological explanation satisfies me, but that's what I am, so....
     
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  15. NoGameNoLife

    NoGameNoLife Regular Member

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    Universe is infinite,I would more like want to know how it exists in the first place or how first atom got created( simple from electron neutron and proton, but how they get created and so on...)
     
  16. Techxan

    Techxan Elite Member

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    TEXAS (you have to yell, its the law.)
    Well it started out as a speck of matter, (which we call a speck of dust), that exploded with a big bang.

    The speck of dust shattered into billions upon billions of pieces and they streamed out from the center of the blast so fast that they approached the speed of light.

    Since this is the speed limit that mass can travel but the power of the blast was still driving them forward with unimaginable force, when they reached the speed of light and could not go faster, these tiny specks of dust began to grow larger by converting the excess energy into mass.

    (This is what the crux of E=MC squared says and why splitting the atom releases so much energy, it is the energy that was used to create the atom during the big bang that is being released)

    As they gained mass, these specks began to slow down, and at some point the mass over whelmed the remaining force pushing the dust, and the dust (now much larger size than before) finally slowed down and stopped gaining mass, and started to just slam into anything in their way, shattering some specks, absorbing others, and merging with others. Over billions of years, they slowed down and stopped slamming into each other, for the most part, although it still happens every once in a while.

    That's a simplified version of it, but basically that's it.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  17. Trepanated

    Trepanated Supreme Member

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    Just to add a little to that as well:

    E=MC² essentially means that energy and mass are the same thing and are interchangeable.

    This also means that mass (basically everything in the universe, including us) is extremely dense energy.

    As time passes, entropy increases, which means that over time (a LONG time) the mass of the universe is slowly converting back to pure energy.

    At some point in the distant future all the mass will have gone and the universe will consist of pure energy (again).

    Now - here is the interesting part:

    We talk about the size of the universe and size is measured in the 1st 3 dimensions. Those dimensions are only relevant because there is MASS in the universe.

    Once there is only pure energy in the universe the first 3 dimensions effectively cease to exist - you can then say the universe is infinite or (and this is the best bit) a singularity - same thing at that point.

    And what does the big bang theory tell us existed immediately prior to the big bang?

    A singularity.
     
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  18. NoGameNoLife

    NoGameNoLife Regular Member

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    That's not the point my point is where that speck of matter came from which is impossible to know
     
  19. ShadeDream

    ShadeDream Elite Member

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    Where did the speck of matter come from and what caused the explosion?
     
  20. Techxan

    Techxan Elite Member

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    That's easy:

    God picked it up, looked at it and said "I can work with that", then he tossed it into the air and snapped his fingers.