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And here we go, New ideas?

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by JustUs, Jan 30, 2017.

  1. JustUs

    JustUs Power Member

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    And here we go. Elon Musk of Telsa and Space-X is thought to be somewhat of a visionary. In California, the state has financed and is building the Hyperloop train system. Is this train running in a near vacuum visionary, or is it a rehash of an old idea?

    In London, England there was an experimental railway system called the "Atmospheric Railway." The cars were inside of an evacuated tube and powered by pistons at each end. One piston would push air into the tube while at the other end a piston would draw the air out. This system created a pressurized system in which the air pushed the car down the rails.

    As we see, running trains through tubes is hardly a new idea, or unique to the Hyperloop train. There were a handful of "Atmospheric Railway" systems built in the mid nineteenth century. The idea of an atmospherically powered train can be traced to a British inventor named George Medhrst in 1812. https://books.google.com/books?id=07o7IbahCsQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=railway+medhurst&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iKQLUpOEMYWb2wWv_YDIBg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=railway medhurst&f=false

    In 1860 Alfred Ely Beach in New York City, USA proposed a number of variations to the Atmospheric Railway including operating it in an airtight tube. https://books.google.com/books?id=GqiI3x70fCoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=beach+pneumatic+railway&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2KQLUuTGHMP-2gXYPA&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=beach pneumatic railway&f=false

    Additionally Beach built a prototype of the pneumatic railway in 1869 at the American Institute Fair in New York City. Visitors to the fair were able to ride in a 107 foot section of the railway. In late 1868, Beach began secret construction of his railway 20 feet below Broadway. Crowds gathered to watch the excavation of earth from the basement of the department store that Beach had Commandeered. In 1870 Beach opened his creation to the public and invited visitors to take a ride.
    Information drawn from: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2013-08-14/new-york-had-a-hyperloop-first-elon-musk

    Electric cars are all the rage by some people. But just how new is the electric car? Many would be surprised to learn that the electric car predates the gasoline and diesel cars. The first know electric car was built in 1937 1837 by a chemist with the name of Robert Davidson who lived in Aberdeen, Scotland. By way of contrast the first gasoline automobile was developed in 1879 by Karl Benz, though the date is most frequently given as 1886.

    In 1807 Francois Isaac de Rivaz designed the first Hydrogen powered car.

    With these histories, why are people like Elon Musk considered visionary. They are simply rehashing old ideas and wrapping them in new and shiny paper. Meanwhile, the technology has existed for a century or more.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  2. thaqu

    thaqu Registered Member

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    That is why. Design matters, get over it
     
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  3. Capo Dei Capi

    Capo Dei Capi BANNED BANNED

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    No making a cult like appeal of a product is what matters, he is just doing what Apple is doing. Tesla is already a cult now, even though they still don't have a practical EV one yet, and supercharging stations aren't in enough places.

    That electric car was actually 1837, not 1937.
     
  4. JustUs

    JustUs Power Member

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    Corrected. Thank you. Even Apple is having a downturn. While a cult status will hold up for a bit, it is rather ephemeral. As far as charging stations, Rocky Mountain Power (Utah, Wyoming) has contracted over the last few days to build 1500 of them up into Idaho.

    Apple downturn:
    http://www.computerworld.com/articl...t-another-downturn-for-apples-iphone-mac.html
    http://deadline.com/2016/04/apple-earnings-second-quarter-2016-iphone-sales-1201744559/
     
  5. blogzandstuff

    blogzandstuff Elite Member

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    That could apply to everything, we have taken ideas from nature and applied them to modern life, like Velcro for example or spiders webs. Velcro is not a new invention it's been in nature for millions of years. So nothing is actually new as such, just rediscovered.
     
  6. Capo Dei Capi

    Capo Dei Capi BANNED BANNED

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    Once some supercharging stations are added to the I-10 between tuscon,az and fort stockton,tx Eastern Wyoming, North Dakota. I will probably consider getting a tesla.
     
  7. JustUs

    JustUs Power Member

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    I have bigger issues with the amount of pollution that the so called green technology produces. Green technology is actually more polluting than conventional technology. It gives us places like Lake Karachay in Russia and Lake Baotou in China. Most of the people do not see the pollution from green technologies because that pollution and contamination comes from the creation and destruction (beginning life and end life) of the technology. We need something different, or a manufacturing base on the moon or someplace else that does not effect us and the planet.
     
  8. Hambone Oblivion

    Hambone Oblivion Registered Member

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    I think Elon Musk is actually part of something visionary and compelling with the Space-X program. When was the last time you saw a rocket go into space, and return to land by itself as a complete unit after rotating at hundreds of MPH. There is no capsule breakaway. I think this is where his COMPANY and group of Engineers are doing amazing things. Elon himself is just a workhorse that likes to drive a company. There is nothing wrong with that, he has a vision and that is extremely important. As far as his other adventures, you are correct he is remarketing old inventions that are more feasible due to advancements in technologies. Where he will be most influential is if an old idea that was tossed aside as being unreasonable and infeasible is brought back to life through new tech. Like a light bulb that doesn't need electricity running to it. Having a chemical reaction create light, or using some other method. Anyways, you are right, he is getting super high accreditation for what he is doing. But then again, no one is really doing much better than he is in the same industries.
     
  9. JustUs

    JustUs Power Member

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    While there has never been a fully reusable launch system, including those of Space-X and Blue Origin, partially reusable launch systems date from the 1970's.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reusable_launch_system

    On the face of it, it would appear that Musk Engineers put a gyroscope into the first stage motor and are returning that, but that is not a fully reusable launch system. Again, it is recycling old ideas.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  10. Phunky

    Phunky Regular Member

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    Passion and charisma make old ideas seem new again. Hell, someone who's very charismatic alone can make others do some pretty insane things.

    It's not just the story, but how you tell it ;)
     
  11. JustUs

    JustUs Power Member

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    It is usually said that "Money talks, Bullshit walks." I am reading your post as "Bullshit talks, Money walks."
     
  12. Phunky

    Phunky Regular Member

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    Human psychology is a crazy thing eh? Sometimes it's easier to sell ice to an eskimo rather than to sell him something he actually needs.
     
  13. Reaver

    Reaver Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    How many people actually know that these ideas are rehashed?

    People would rather believe in a person than the idea he represents. That's why "visionaries" can get away with stealing, rehashing and everything else. It isn't about their ideas. It's about how they make people feel. You make them feel good, feel special, they'll worship you.
     
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  14. JustUs

    JustUs Power Member

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    You make quite a bit of sense there.
     
  15. Reaver

    Reaver Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    Shhh. Don't broadcast that. I don't want people to think I'm an actual person with reasoning capability.
     
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  16. louiszhao

    louiszhao Regular Member

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  17. mark14141414

    mark14141414 Registered Member

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  18. RoiBox

    RoiBox Regular Member

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    People like Elon Musk are considered visionary, since they donĀ“t just talk, they act, create momentum and do something about it.
     
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  19. Hambone Oblivion

    Hambone Oblivion Registered Member

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    You are right, these ideas have already been thought of. I guess the real question is, can you hate the man for learning from others, and making a buck? We are all guilty of that fact. I think he goes down in history as being a great visionary, when he is, in fact, I think a visionary, but one that is a business-based visionary. He has a vision of a product, where it can go, and how to make a buck doing it. This is his real strength, he grew up making 6 figures when he was in his teen/young adult years. He's been great at building businesses his whole life.

    Thanks for starting this thread, has been an interesting topic to talk about.
     
  20. Capo Dei Capi

    Capo Dei Capi BANNED BANNED

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    How did he "learn" from others he runs the company other people learn and design it.