What the hell is this COVID about?

[Deleted member 1333509]

So because the average age is 82 years old, are you "implicating" that it doesn't effect people younger people? That's there's not children who lost their parents? Or parents who lost their children?

Learn what the word "average" means. Normally it's a part of what children get taught in math classes when they're about 9 or 10 years old.

In case you didn't have the luxury of learning elementary math, it means that some people might be 10, some people might be 42, some people might be 98, but the number that each instance is closest to over the entire group is 82.

The reason that's relevant is because 82 is higher than the average age of death irrespective of cause.

The reason that's relevant is because if a disease has an average age of mortality of higher than the actual normal average age of mortality, it shows that there is more than likely a serious level of entanglement between the claimed cause of death and the actual cause of deaths in many cases - ie. people dying as they would have done anyway from other conditions and causes.

The reason that this is relevant is because we actually have statistics from the leading health and disease authority in the US, the CDC (Center for Disease Control) showing that in 94% of cases, the person that died had more than one listed cause of death.

The reason that's relevant is because if you say "1,000,000 people died of COVID" you should take very different actions to protect the population to if you say "1,000,000 people died of COVID, but 940,000 of those people would have died anyway".

Finally, the reason that's relevant is because right now millions of people around the world are having their lives uprooted and completely destroyed by not being able to work and having their businesses fail, which is leading to suicides en masse, drug abuse en masse, mental health problems en masse... globally.

So if you're going to shut the world down, you'd better make damn sure that you're doing it with accurate statistics backing it, because right now more harm could be being created than is being prevented.

(If you cared more about minimising global harm than you do about calling people that don't wear masks idiots then you'd probably at least consider the idea that fallout from lockdowns is a really bad thing that should be addressed)

Are you even talking about covid or what are you talking about lol

You asked for data. You accused me of thinking I know more than experts. You asked where I plucked the 94% figure from (arrogantly).

I then provided you with a link to the source of that data - the CDC. I'm quoting them. To make it even easier for you because you seem to be struggling to follow what's happening right now, I even took a screenshot of the exact paragraph.

It's always a really good indicator of the character and integrity of someone when they try to call you out like you're making shit up, and then when you provide the proof that your perspective is backed by data from the leading scientists in the world they pretend they don't know what you just showed them.

Class act.

Ok so let's assume one of us has "Dunning-Kruger". How do we determine which one of us that is? lol Maybe it's me. But how would I know for sure? And how am I supposed to know it's not you? I mean, would you be able to tell? How would you even know it's not you if you had that type of mental processing lol

Let's assume you are a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. I think we've got a really good chance of being right in that assumption.

(This last comment from you is pretty meta too.. once more not having the competence to know that you don't have the competence to discuss my comment about you not having enough competence to know that you don't have enough competence to discuss the COVID situation with any kind of effectiveness and precision... you may in fact be the poster child for Dunning-Kruger)

 

[nakamura]

Have you all noticed that amongst all the fear porn coming from mainstream media there is little to no talk of attempts to increase one's immune system? They certainly aren't talking about necessary nutrients to build natural defense - not to mention exercise. They want you SCARED (outside bad!)

There is a huge problem with corporate media. They are doing clickbait, sensationalism and fear mongering to generate more traffic in order to earn more money from ads...and because they are in competition with each other, they keep doing worse and worse fear mongering. The most people don't understand it. They think they are reading "news", but they are not.

Normally the media should report all statistics and get into the details, but they are not. Basically, they are earning money (clickbait and fear mongering) by destroying the mental health of the people (which are becoming depressed etc)

And here is the even bigger problem: The media is defending and even promoting its fear-mongering by attacking everyone who has a rational approach on the virus. If you tell them facts, they will attack you...and they are generating even more traffic by attacking you. It is sick.

It is a really big problem and I don't see a solution for this. Maybe make media responsible for this? Or the chinese approach: state media? At the moment it is terrific.

 

[Deleted member 1333509]

There is a huge problem with corporate media. They are doing clickbait, sensationalism and fear mongering to generate more traffic in order to earn more money from ads...and because they are in competition with each other, they keep doing worse and worse fear mongering. The most people don't understand it. They think they are reading "news", but they are not.

Normally the media should report all statistics and get into the details, but they are not. Basically, they are earning money (clickbait and fear mongering) by destroying the mental health of the people (which are becoming depressed etc)

And here is the even bigger problem: The media is defending and even promoting its fear-mongering by attacking everyone who has a rational approach on the virus. If you tell them facts, they will attack you...and they are generating even more traffic by attacking you. It is sick.

It is a really big problem and I don't see a solution for this. Maybe make media responsible for this? Or the chinese approach: state media? At the moment it is terrific.

Decentralised media is the answer, and I was actually looking into the concept for a decentralised news network, but the main problem is how malicious actors (partisans, fake news, government agents etc) could be distinguished from legitimate individuals.

One way would be using signals, similar to social signals, to understand which trusted followers are regularly watching a source, then the ratio of trusted/untrusted followers per source could be used as a metric.

But it's super loose and not something that is implementable in regards to new channels for example - then why not just keep setting up new channels to spread propaganda.

Telling you now though, if there is something that is worth working towards, it's the concept of decentralising the way current affairs are disseminated globally.

It would generate billions from fees and ads, sure, but more to the point it would be one of the most impactful ways you could possibly help humanity, and I don't mean that as hyperbole.

With the right model and people I would stop everything else I'm doing to work on that full time.. it might be something that would tangibly and significantly move us away from the dystopian future were doing cartwheels towards right now. Nothing in the world is more harmful than mainstream news and social media's grip in information.

 

[Saithizar]

It is all about making people sick and having a hard time breathing and then causing the death of some of those people who are not able to handle it. It is a very deadly virus and it aint playing around.It is surprising that there are still people that do not believe it is real.

 

[Lightworkerman]

In case you don't know. it is a virus that has killed thousands of people all around the world and is is still killing more as we speak. You may even be one of those victims. You need to say safe and avoid it as much as possible, Anyone can get it.

 

[Deleted member 1333509]

It is all about making people sick and having a hard time breathing and then causing the death of some of those people who are not able to handle it. It is a very deadly virus and it aint playing around.It is surprising that there are still people that do not believe it is real.

In case you don't know. it is a virus that has killed thousands of people all around the world and is is still killing more as we speak. You may even be one of those victims. You need to say safe and avoid it as much as possible, Anyone can get it.

Both of these accounts so blatantly are connected. Almost identical stats (creation date, messages, reactions).




Also, check the post times on these two puppet accounts as well. Coincidently posting at the same time, same messages here, saying "nice to see" twice in 5 minutes. @Heiko

Guessing the same IP or at least the same country because whoever's controlling these accounts is lazy as fuck.

 

[Startrick]

The whole comparison between drink & drive and the virus is wrong. Drinking & driving is not "spreading" like a virus. Yes, you can be unlucky a drunk driver is crashing into your car, but the chance is incredibly fucking low it is going to hit you. With a virus on the other hand its completely different. The more people are infected, the higher is the chance you are going to get infected sooner or later.

The only question: With all the facts given (mortality rate, age of death, etc.) what is the best approach to deal with the situation? Japan, Korea and Taiwan had a very decent approach. China had a draconian approach, but to be fair with them: They had no idea what they were dealing with. Could have been way more deadly.

By the way: Does anyone know why China suddenly stopped to report the number of cases? I asked some of my chinese friends today. They told me this: Their gov. did lots of research with the best scientists of their country and they came to the conclusion the virus is not so dangerous and its not worth it to destroy the whole economy. Also, they said, the number of cases is irrelevant, because the most people who were tested positive have no symptoms. Why I am wondering western media never actually started to investigate why China stopped reporting the number? I never heard any explanation. Maybe they don't want us to know the reason?

You can break down the whole Coronavirus debate into this: Rationality vs. Emotionality.

Some guys say: look at the statistics, its not so dangerous. Why killing the whole economy and millions of people are going to suffer from losing their jobs, getting into depression or killing themselves. Thats the rational approach.

The emotional approach is: OMG the virus is dangerous I have to wear a mask, hide and buy as much toilet paper as possible. look at the numbers how many people get infected and die!!! omg!! we could easily and die and our grandparents die too!! omg!!!

Thats basically what you see, hear and read all the time. The people are in a clash with each other.

But here is what really pisses me of: That somehow statistics and facts are no longer important. This whole stuff around the virus is completely blurred. No one talks about how the number of cases is NOT important, because just because you have been tested positive, it doesn't mean you get sick (no symptoms).

Then there is this huge question about the mortality. Average age of death is 82 years. Most people who die are older than 90. I worked in a hospital myself and I can tell you guys: If a person who is older than 80+ (depends on their condition) gets a pneunomia, flu or anything like this it can be fucking deadly. What I want to say is: People with a very week immune system are always at a risk when they get sick.

Actually I dont give a fuck about the virus or any government. I care about if it actually makes sense to have lunatic security measures for a virus, where the mortality rate is so low (and maybe even lower!).

For myself, I am making money online. I don't have any problem. But I can see the people around me, who have a 9-5 job are going fucking NUTS. Two of my friends even tried to kill themselves, because they have/had an offline business. Many others got into a depression, lost their job and income.

The independent livelyhood of million of people are getting destroyed. Not only of the 9-5 guys, but also business owner...book stores, restaurants, bars, etc. How far will they take it? What are you going to do about it?

For me your words are wise, i was reading every comment since last i did until i reached yours , we are being played and is imposible to handle this with each other as there is so many variables and points of views(= so many people) that we need just to life and adapt to the situation, as has Happened after every "WAR".

I belive here in the forum there is very smart people but also a lot of people that knows how to manipulate others, thats IM .

My will is just that we as part of the population use our power for the good and not for the self benefit only.

So lets give solutions earn some cash on the way and happy change for all!!

ANY SUPERIOR MIND/PERSON HAS THE RESPONSABILITY OF HELPING THE WEAK. THIS TIME MORE THAN IN THE PAST ALL THE SMART ONES NEED TO TAKE ACTION AND NOT BE SELFISH. IF YOU DO NOT YOU ARE NOT SMART JUST ANOTHER VIRUS IN THIS SOCIETY.

 

[Jammy0308]

I don't think your thread comes from a place of malicious intent but rather from an insensitive miss informed.

 

[nakamura]

In case you don't know. it is a virus that has killed thousands of people all around the world and is is still killing more as we speak. You may even be one of those victims. You need to say safe and avoid it as much as possible, Anyone can get it.

Oh boy. Again, the total emotional approach.

Ask yourself this question: Would you actually notice there is a Coronavirus, if no one outside would we wear a mask and there would be no media coverage? I highly doubt it.

In 2017 there were around 500k people dying from Malaria. Were you also afraid of this one? No, I don't think so, because media didn't confront you or me with this 24/7.

I don't think your thread comes from a place of malicious intent but rather from an insensitive miss informed.

The question here is: Who is miss informed? All the guys doing fear mongering and listening to corporate media? Or the ones who are checking statistics and reading original sources? Sapere aude.

 

[Jammy0308]

Oh boy. Again, the total emotional approach.

Ask yourself this question: Would you actually notice there is a Coronavirus, if no one outside would we wear a mask and there would be no media coverage? I highly doubt it.

In 2017 there were around 500k people dying from Malaria. Were you also afraid of this one? No, I don't think so, because media didn't confront you or me with this 24/7.

Yes. Yes you would notice. I think you'd notice when there is a pattern of everyone getting sick around you. You compare it with Malaria but Malaria has many working treatments, isn't an issue in half the world and comparing deaths to 2017 has under half the deaths COVID has had this year so far.

News has made it a huge deal, I'm not denying it. However, in these situations you need to turn to people who know more than you, e.g scientists.

 

[kvvni]

Oh boy. Again, the total emotional approach.

Ask yourself this question: Would you actually notice there is a Coronavirus, if no one outside would we wear a mask and there would be no media coverage? I highly doubt it.

In 2017 there were around 500k people dying from Malaria. Were you also afraid of this one? No, I don't think so, because media didn't confront you or me with this 24/7.




The question here is: Who is miss informed? All the guys doing fear mongering and listening to corporate media? Or the ones who are checking statistics and reading original sources? Sapere aude.

Both of these accounts so blatantly are connected. Almost identical stats (creation date, messages, reactions).




Also, check the post times on these two puppet accounts as well. Coincidently posting at the same time, same messages here, saying "nice to see" twice in 5 minutes. @Heiko

Guessing the same IP or at least the same country because whoever's controlling these accounts is lazy as fuck.

Guys, I admire you. I admire that you keep trying to SENSIBLY explain what it looks like.
As I wrote in the first post: playing on emotions is shit.

It used to be antycovid. In my country there are already "covidians".
These are people who sleep in masks, scare others, disinfect shoe soles, etc. etc.
You will tell them what the statistics are that PEOPLE DO NOT DIE ON THE STREET. THAT YOU DON'T MISS THE BODY WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET TO THE STORE.
They will answer of course....
"But your grandparents could die from it." Fuccin hell.

 

[Deleted member 1333509]

News has made it a huge deal, I'm not denying it. However, in these situations you need to turn to people who know more than you, e.g scientists.

Re scientists: this is the 4th time I've posted this:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm


It's not having a go at you, it's showing that the scientific consensus is a little bit more complicated than "COVID is a very dangerous disease".

Once you look at statistics like this you realise that you may have to consider some nuanced perspectives. If only 6% of people that died from COVID didn't have any other causes of death listed, does that mean that COVID might not be some deadly super disease we all have to hide from?

If 99.9% of people that catch COVID don't die, is it worth doing global economic damage that will result in millions of people moving below the poverty line, starving to death, having to resort to crime and prostitution, abuse, suicides, homicides.. is all of that worth it for a disease that might be less harmful than the common flu?

Would it be less harmful to quarantine the people most at risk (old people, sick people) and then allow everyone else to keep generating money for their families? Will that actually prevent millions of people from dying or becoming homeless?

 

[kvvni]

If 99.9% of people that catch COVID don't die, is it worth doing global economic damage that will result in millions of people moving below the poverty line, starving to death, having to resort to crime and prostitution, abuse, suicides, homicides.. is all of that worth it for a disease that might be less harmful than the common flu?

And the answer is NO. And that's why I created this thread.

But no wonder that restrictions are introduced, when there are people who only have in mind: a super-deadly disease..

 

[nakamura]

Guys, I admire you. I admire that you keep trying to SENSIBLY explain what it looks like.
As I wrote in the first post: playing on emotions is shit.

It used to be antycovid. In my country there are already "covidians".
These are people who sleep in masks, scare others, disinfect shoe soles, etc. etc.
You will tell them what the statistics are that PEOPLE DO NOT DIE ON THE STREET. THAT YOU DON'T MISS THE BODY WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET TO THE STORE.
They will answer of course....
"But your grandparents could die from it." Fuccin hell.

People are easy to get manipulated, because of their emotions. It is a weakness of humans. It happens for thousands of years. Also, in 2020 there are still people killing others because of their religion or god. This shit is inevitable. To break it down: There is always a percentage of people who are fucking retarded and NO MATTER what explanation and facts you give them, they won't accept it. The people just have very low intellect, they are not able to think outside the box. They are not able to question anything.

The people are "believing" in the Coronavirus. They are "believing" it is dangerous. It is their perception. Now you come along and show them some statistics, facts and make them question this, you can guess what is going to happen. They won't accept. Also, the same shit happens in the climate change debate.

 

[Deleted member 1333509]

People are easy to get manipulated, because of their emotions. It is a weakness of humans.

100% and this is the problem.

Instead of people seeing that a difference in opinion is as a result of each receiving different information, people attach negative connotations to people they disagree with.

Eg. Instead of "that person thinks COVID might not be as deadly as people are claiming, I wonder why?" they come to the conclusion "that person thinks COVID might not be as deadly as people are claiming, they must want people to die and only care about clubbing". It only serves to make them feel better and to boost their ego with self-inflation... "I'm a good person, they're a bad person", pat on the back for me.

If you can't go into a discussion thinking that there's a chance your opinions are wrong, and then being able to adjust them when presented with new information, then you're condemning yourself to always being the kind of person that "knows everything" and can learn nothing.. literally the stupidest people in society by a wide margin.

I notice throughout this entire thread, not a single person that disagrees with the CDC figure has posted a single statistic or piece of data that counteracts the idea that up to 94% of COVID deaths were caused by other things.

If COVID's claimed mortality rates are accurate, surely there must be a study in some country where they found that people that died from COVID almost exclusively suffered from no other conditions. That would be interesting to see - as of yet, I've never heard of that data.

 

[Jammy0308]

Re scientists: this is the 4th time I've posted this:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm


It's not having a go at you, it's showing that the scientific consensus is a little bit more complicated than "COVID is a very dangerous disease".

Once you look at statistics like this you realise that you may have to consider some nuanced perspectives. If only 6% of people that died from COVID didn't have any other causes of death listed, does that mean that COVID might not be some deadly super disease we all have to hide from?

If 99.9% of people that catch COVID don't die, is it worth doing global economic damage that will result in millions of people moving below the poverty line, starving to death, having to resort to crime and prostitution, abuse, suicides, homicides.. is all of that worth it for a disease that might be less harmful than the common flu?

Would it be less harmful to quarantine the people most at risk (old people, sick people) and then allow everyone else to keep generating money for their families? Will that actually prevent millions of people from dying or becoming homeless?

I appreciate the link, I'll have a read.

I am healthy, young and with no medical conditions, therefore I will very likely not die from COVID if I catch it. I do agree that it would be a good idea in my eyes to keep people more venerable safe and let the world continue for others. However, the key phrase there is "in my eyes". You, I and everyone else in this thread know very little about COVID, the economy, the effects etc in the grand scheme of it, surely you can agree with this. While everyone here rants about the poor decisions the government is making, they are sitting there with a small slice of what is going on and what decisions are being made. In these times everyone has to trust that those with a huge experienced team of professionals in many fields are using their expertise correctly. No matter how much we all read, how much we debate it, their judgement is better than ours. It is very easy to say typing on our keyboards that the government should do this and that.

Some governments, scientists, experts will make wrong decisions but I think we all have to follow the guidelines, follow their decisions whether we disagree or not.

 

[Jammy0308]

People are easy to get manipulated, because of their emotions. It is a weakness of humans. It happens for thousands of years. Also, in 2020 there are still people killing others because of their religion or god. This shit is inevitable. To break it down: There is always a percentage of people who are fucking retarded and NO MATTER what explanation and facts you give them, they won't accept it. The people just have very low intellect, they are not able to think outside the box. They are not able to question anything.

Be careful, it is easy to say this about the other side's opinion without looking at your own. It is very easy to assume the other side is just ignorant, notice how both sides in an argument say this when actually they are both are ignorant in their own ways?

 

[ChristianTeo20]

How can you say someone died from Covid if no one is making an autopsy on the dead bodies? They are not allowed to make autopsies. Why is that?? The numbers are so unreal. Many more people died from the treatment and covid protocols than from the covid itself. Also many have died because all their medication for their chronic illnesses were stopped during covid treatment. It's very easy to count people with chronic illnesses that contacted covid like died from covid. There was a movie which was removed from social media Plandemic i don;'t know if it's real or not of what is saying there but why would you delete it and ban it?

Ok. Then let's ban everything that we do not agree with. Seriously? Some say aliens exist let's ban them. Some think God doesn't exist or others that exist let's ban them too.

This covid crap is a virus that didn't have a standardized treatment or protocol because it was new but you just can't poop on everyone's rights and close everything and isolate people on their homes and so on. This creates a very dangerous future....

 

[penza]

People are easy to get manipulated, because of their emotions. It is a weakness of humans. It happens for thousands of years. Also, in 2020 there are still people killing others because of their religion or god. This shit is inevitable. To break it down: There is always a percentage of people who are fucking retarded and NO MATTER what explanation and facts you give them, they won't accept it. The people just have very low intellect, they are not able to think outside the box. They are not able to question anything.

The people are "believing" in the Coronavirus. They are "believing" it is dangerous. It is their perception. Now you come along and show them some statistics, facts and make them question this, you can guess what is going to happen. They won't accept. Also, the same shit happens in the climate change debate.

Couldn’t have said it any better!

 

[Deleted member 1333509]

However, the key phrase there is "in my eyes". You, I and everyone else in this thread know very little about COVID, the economy, the effects etc in the grand scheme of it, surely you can agree with this.

Actually I think that's completely accurate. We have much less data at our fingertips than anyone that is working on this daily within governments around the world.

While everyone here rants about the poor decisions the government is making, they are sitting there with a small slice of what is going on and what decisions are being made. In these times everyone has to trust that those with a huge experienced team of professionals in many fields are using their expertise correctly. No matter how much we all read, how much we debate it, their judgement is better than ours. It is very easy to say typing on our keyboards that the government should do this and that.

I also do agree with your point here as well - it's similar to the last one.

All I would say is that it's not about saying "the government is wrong" and making absolutely statements or critiques, it's about asking questions.

You should be able to honestly ask the question of "if the data from the government who are studying this says that almost all people that die from it also have other conditions that cause death, what are the implications of that?".

Some people think though that you shouldn't even as that question, that you're a conspiracy theorist, or that you have ulterior motives.

But it's for the good of everyone that we can have open conversations where data being presented is considered in a legitimate way, instead of dismissing it because it doesn't suit their preexisting narrative.

As Nakamura has pointed out a number of times already, emotions are completely useless in this situation - they make people make worse decisions, not better.

Some governments, scientists, experts will make wrong decisions but I think we all have to follow the guidelines, follow their decisions whether we disagree or not.

Again, I agree. We have to follow their decisions because they will enforce them.

Whether those decisions lead to human misery on a scale we haven't seen since WWII, who knows. It certainly could do, and so we should consider any point of view in a fair and reasonable way, especially a data-backed point of view.

Be careful, it is easy to say this about the other side's opinion without looking at your own. It is very easy to assume the other side is just ignorant, notice how both sides in an argument say this when actually they are both are ignorant in their own ways?

To a degree yes, perfect information is not available from either angle.

But the perspective that COVID might not be as dangerous as its been portrayed as is supported by CDC data and others. The counterargument here has been supported by no such data. That's significant.