how UK rich guy survive?

Are you saying a person in the USA only pays about $4000 in income tax in their pay packet at the end of the year if they earn $52,000?

That did not include SS tax and 401k contributions. But the amount without them, yes, that's the total effective federal tax rate - see here, on the row that says "Middle", last column.

For the UK stuff your numbers are wrong. If you make £40,000 here you pay £5630 in income tax.

I got them from the Guardian, see here. But that number includes SS + pension (which I didn't notice at first, but we clarified it later on).

We also don't have medical bills or school bills to pay.

My point is that all that doesn't amount to a quarter of a million loss in capital (not to mention the loss of opportunity).

There is no point in quoting figures using VAT either. Not every item here has VAT, it only applies to what are deemed luxury items. Most food and other things are not included.

I'll just paste this from the gov.uk site. I guess "most goods and services" is clear enough.

upload_2018-9-9_23-16-58.png
 
The problem is the ignorance of the idea that taxes = bad.

The Articles of Confederation failed due to the inability to fund the government. A country basically fell due to having no taxes, but yet there are people that parade the idea of "NO TAXES!"

I just don't see how people think that living in a society is free. I believe that the benefits of society are enormous, and those benefits require adequate funding.

Why is it that the Nordic countries have some of the highest taxes AND they also have the highest level of happiness/satisfaction? If taxes are evil, shouldn't these people be depressed and oppressed?

Most importantly, don't forget that the pursuit of money is all about happiness in the end. We want to be able to buy the things we want, provide for our families, live in buildings that don't crumble, drive over bridges that don't collapse, drink water that doesn't cause diarrhea, afford medical care when your child gets hit by a car. Being able to do these things creates happiness. Therefore, taxes create happiness when it comes down to it -- but many people fail to think this far ahead and are stuck in the loop of TAXES ARE EVIL.

If society allows an individual to become a billionaire, then it is only fair for them to have to pay their dues. They can still be wealthy, they can still afford to purchase a Lamborghini for every 50 of their cousins; there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is being able to do these things at the greater expense of society. If being able to purchase a second yacht means taking the food out of 10 immigrants mouths, then something is broken with taxes, and it must be fixed for the survival and prosperity of society.

</RANT>
 
@jazzc

This is all about "capital loose" and opportunity, there are many, many sources that EU economy is biger than US. So where are benefits?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/10/is-europe-outperforming-the-us/

GDP in 2014
China $ 10,356,508
E.U. $ 18,527,116
U.S.A. $ 17,348,075
Japan $ 4,602,367

WIKI SAYS BUT IT'S NOT UPDATED FOR YEARS:

1
23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
United States 19,390,604
23px-Flag_of_Europe.svg.png
European Union[23] 17,277,698

BUSINESS INSIDER:

5592e2236da811de0e37e6bb-960-720.png




USA is leader only because military spending but this also started to change slowly.
 
This is all about "capital loose" and opportunity, there are many, many sources that EU economy is biger than US. So where are benefits?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/10/is-europe-outperforming-the-us/

GDP in 2014
China $ 10,356,508
E.U. $ 18,527,116
U.S.A. $ 17,348,075
Japan $ 4,602,367

WIKI SAYS BUT IT'S NOT UPDATED FOR YEARS:

1
23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
United States 19,390,604
23px-Flag_of_Europe.svg.png
European Union[23] 17,277,698

BUSINESS INSIDER:

5592e2236da811de0e37e6bb-960-720.png




USA is leader only because military spending but this also started to change slowly.

First of all, you want GDP PPP per capita, not GDP PPP.

I'll let you google to find how much that is for the US, how much it is for the European Union and how much it is for China. You'll be surprised.

As for capital misallocation, that has to do with how close you are to the optimal investment of the capital for future production. Taxation means higher capital misallocation.
 
First of all, you want GDP PPP per capita, not GDP PPP.

I'll let you google to find how much that is for the US, how much it is for the European Union and how much it is for China. You'll be surprised.

As for capital misallocation, that has to do with how close you are to the optimal investment of the capital for future production. Taxation means higher capital misallocation.
900 freaking billions in Afghanistan and 2 trillions in Iraq doesn't look better spend to be honest... But this is changing the subject.
I prefer higher taxes having the full knowledge that if shits hit the fan me, my family or anyone really, will be taken care off - this give me a peace of mind that is invaluable for me. I make good money and pay a fuckload of taxes, but still prefer it this way.
 
First of all, you want GDP PPP per capita, not GDP PPP.

I'll let you google to find how much that is for the US, how much it is for the European Union and how much it is for China. You'll be surprised.

As for capital misallocation, that has to do with how close you are to the optimal investment of the capital for future production. Taxation means higher capital misallocation.

I am not USA hater but you will see in next decade, how per capita will decrease in USA, thx to:
-Trump decisions
-silicon valley errosion
-China and Europe train trading
-decreasing dollar

This factor is high only because USA have big millitary force and not public negotiations like such:
-don't want discount? We can manipulate your currency
-don't want to trade? We can block you
-have different ideas? We can bomb you

Sorry but Libya, Iraq, Afganistan, Siria destroyed with one reason. USA want to block land trade with Europe. Russia attacked Ukraine because they want to have this trade route in own territory. China tried to avoid it, first via Arabian countries, second via Ukraine.
Who is next? Iran? It's not about oil, it's about blocking China because if they release, then USA sea empire is over.
 
The problem is the ignorance of the idea that taxes = bad.

The actual idea is that taxation = theft. For a lot people theft is great. But for those who don't espouse that, yes, you can say that it's bad.

The Articles of Confederation failed due to the inability to fund the government. A country basically fell due to having no taxes, but yet there are people that parade the idea of "NO TAXES!"

That's quite the reduction there. Too bad it's weak and self-serving.

I just don't see how people think that living in a society is free.

Nobody says it is. I always pay the bill for my dentist and - for some reason - my customers always pay their bills to me. Where does the "free" part come in?

I believe that the benefits of society are enormous,

Absolutely, that's why people aren't rushing to the desert to live their dream lives as hermits.

and those benefits require adequate funding.

It's called "pay for the shit you consume".

Why is it that the Nordic countries have some of the highest taxes AND they also have the highest level of happiness/satisfaction? If taxes are evil, shouldn't these people be depressed and oppressed?

Economies don't bust from one day to the next. The USSR wasn't always a bankrupt dystopia. Nor was Venezuela. The decline takes time because there's fat to burn and it's not like the economy comes to a halt in the mean time. The whole idea is that is you parasite the host too much, the host eventually withers and dies. Eventually. In the mean time, life is great, especially for the parasites.

Most importantly, don't forget that the pursuit of money is all about happiness in the end. We want to be able to buy the things we want, provide for our families, live in buildings that don't crumble, drive over bridges that don't collapse, drink water that doesn't cause diarrhea, afford medical care when your child gets hit by a car. Being able to do these things creates happiness.

This is exactly why taxes are bad, assuming you're not on the receiving end of the theft process. When you steal my money, I got less ammo to shoot for that happiness. As for the bridge, I'm more than happy to pay a toll if I need to cross it.

Therefore, taxes create happiness when it comes down to it -- but many people fail to think this far ahead and are stuck in the loop of TAXES ARE EVIL.

Theft creates happiness for the fences, that's true.

If society allows an individual to become a billionaire, then it is only fair for them to have to pay their dues.

In other words, he is paying a ransom. Extortion is bad, m'kay?

They can still be wealthy, they can still afford to purchase a Lamborghini for every 50 of their cousins; there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

As long as they pay the Family their dues, you mean.

What is wrong is being able to do these things at the greater expense of society.

Unless you're stealing (like, I don't know, say ... by taxing and extorting), you're doing these things at the benefit of society.

If being able to purchase a second yacht means taking the food out of 10 immigrants mouths, then something is broken with taxes, and it must be fixed for the survival and prosperity of society.

This is too illogical to even start commenting.
 

Well, that's just an assertion for the future though, eh? :) And in the mean time, the US is far ahead in per capita. Of course, if they go down the EU road, they'll do worse as you say. But as it looks, they're speeding up their engines.
 
Well, that's just an assertion for the future though, eh? :) And in the mean time, the US is far ahead in per capita. Of course, if they go down the EU road, they'll do worse as you say. But as it looks, they're speeding up their engines.

We will see. We cannot compare US and EU very well, it's material for books and statistics. What is 100% sure, USA is perfect in marketing. EU if do great things, it's silence. In many parts of life, EU is far behind USA. Some ideas are better in USA.
We don't know nothing because USA is one country, EU just started the way to create super-country.
 
We will see. We cannot compare US and EU very well, it's material for books and statistics. What is 100% sure, USA is perfect in marketing. EU if do great things, it's silence. In many parts of life, EU is far behind USA. Some ideas are better in USA.
We don't know nothing because USA is one country, EU just started the way to create super-country.

It's over-simplified but I guess we can leave it at that for now.
 
My 2 cents are the benefit of society as a whole is always greater than the needs of a small percentage of people who feel they need to be obscenely rich with more money than can ever need. Seems like common sense and just human decency to most.
 
I appreciate your reply jazzc, I love having productive conversations like these where we can both learn a thing or two.

My family has relied on government assistance due to one of my family members being born with special needs. If there were not these tax-funded programs in place, my family would've been hit by million dollar medical bills and a very large sum of money every year would go to supporting this family member. Paying taxes helps lift up others who are not able to provide for themselves. Other human beings.
 
My 2 cents are the benefit of society as a whole is always greater than the needs of a small percentage of people who feel they need to be obscenely rich with more money than can ever need. Seems like common sense and just human decency to most.

It's common sense only because the common person doesn't understand what an economy is and how it works (or not).
 
That did not include SS tax and 401k contributions. But the amount without them, yes, that's the total effective federal tax rate - see here, on the row that says "Middle", last column.



I got them from the Guardian, see here. But that number includes SS + pension (which I didn't notice at first, but we clarified it later on).



My point is that all that doesn't amount to a quarter of a million loss in capital (not to mention the loss of opportunity).



I'll just paste this from the gov.uk site. I guess "most goods and services" is clear enough.

View attachment 107567
I dont see where your 250,000 loss comes from. Its no good posting a snippet about VAT. Its hugely complicated area and most food for example (a families biggest purchase) is 0% as well as many other things. For example we dont have any yearly property ownership taxes but we pay more tax on petrol than you so you are comparing apples and oranges. We dont have state taxes or a 401k. The Guardian figures you used showed the US and UK about the same overall. Why didnt you post both of them? We have minimum wage of around $10.00 this year, you dont. Overall its an impossible comparison.
 
But there is one difference:

in UK, you pay tax when you get income, in Estonia you pay tax when you consume income for personal usage. It means, every reinvest in Estonia is free of tax. It's perfect for bitcoin traders but also internet business. Earn>reinvest>earn>reinvest. You can pay tax after 10 years.
Yes, you need to consume but also your company can be owner of your flat, cars, etc. You have also 50 euro/day diet for business traveling (for example hotel...or food).

pro tip: you can be resident of Spain, biggest tax free in EU and just move cash from Estonia to Spain
Can I hit you up in private to have a chat about it?
 
I dont see where your 250,000 loss comes from.

See one of my earlier posts on the thread, the calculation is there.

Its no good posting a snippet about VAT. Its hugely complicated area and most food for example (a families biggest purchase) is 0% as well as many other things.

The quote is for the direct authority on the matter, so they should know. But even from the citizen side, I pay VAT as a consumer and doesn't look hugely complicated to my wallet. Yes, I buy more than food.

but we pay more tax on petrol than you so you are comparing apples and oranges.

Money is money. Both apples and oranges have a monetary value. You use that and you get aggregates, then you compare.

We dont have state taxes or a 401k. The Guardian figures you used showed the US and UK about the same overall. Why didnt you post both of them?

Because there aren't high state and sales taxes in every state. If you see the Guardian post, it picked a state that has both. We took 401k as roughly the equivalent of a UK pension scheme for this conversation.

We have minimum wage of around $10.00 this year, you dont. Overall its an impossible comparison.

It's not impossible at all. Tiring, yes - especially as you try to increase in accuracy. But you can just go to World Bank Open Data and fire up your excel sheet.
 
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