Why we should all support/like the OWS movement

I generally don't engage in political arguments as there's no point; both people always think they're right.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because you went to college does not guarantee that you're immediately entitled to a good paying job, I know that many kids are brainwashed from day 1 to think so but that is not how it works. The exception is if they had done the research and chosen a career where there is a huge shortage of professionals and it is something where not anyone can do it, you need a degree to get certification (such as nursing was in huge demand in the recent past). If you're going to school for something where there is no demand for work that is fine too but don't protest, you should have expected it. Instead you're going to have to get a different job for a while or start low and accumulate some experience. Many fields there are way too many people that have the same degree you just got AND have 10-20 years of actual experience in the field as well. You're not entitled to a great job just because you went to school for a couple of years.

lykathe said:

Who IS entitled to our money? Huge industries(that have fucked up our country in ways from the recession, to poison food, to allowing climate change to happen because they absolutely must not stop producing so much emissions, to destroying our natural sources of water because we absolutely must keep driving oil based cars(although we could EASILY be independent from oil right now if it wasn't so unprofitable for such powerful people...)) that get awarded it because they pay politicians? Lol. Government exists ONLY to serve the people, and right now it's priorities seem to be vested in big business.

The man who goes to "work" and does nothing but manipulate values of money made by other people are nothing but leeches, and never did anything to add to the world, and thusly don't deserve anything.

In a world where there is more money and possibilities than EVER, corporations have the most money they've ever had, and there isn't enough work for near record amounts of people in our country, AND the government just keeps giving money to the big businesses, is a time when our current system is failing us.

OWSers know exactly what they're protesting, but the mass media tells you that they don't know what they're doing, and thusly that is now the public opinion of the movement. They have a very clear and concise list of demands, http://current.com/shows/countdown/...st-collective-statement-of-occupy-wall-street.

The man who has enormous wealth and lets people starve to death because they want to hoard money, while the people sitting on the sidewalk can't find a decently paying job if they want to... who is greedy there, indeed.

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jazzc said:

@rakoom2002

A liberal is by definition a proponent of freedom over anything else.
A socialist is a proponent of the "community" over anything else.

These don't mix.

Or maybe my English sucks and liberal does not mean that in your country??

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Here in democratic NZ, liberal is just another word for left wing. Also we don't have hardcore Cuban or Eastern European style socialism here - socialism here just means a belief that that the state should have a hand in some things that are for the greater good of the community, eg. socialized medicine which I generally agree with (because a society that doesn't take care of its weaker members is a pretty shitty society). It's not communism like the word indicate if you were from cold war Russia or something like that.

Political definitions are a murky business because they mean different things to different people. For example most right wing "conservative" parties espouse lower social spending and less business regulation, but they also support greater controls over the citizenship eg. the virtual police state that the Patriot Act era USA has descended into during the George Bush years. With left wing "socialist" parties in democratic countries, you're going to get more socialist style spending on the community, more business regulation but you also generally have less of an oppressive police state situation and ultimately more personal freedom.

Then we have "socialist" Venezuela under Chavez, which has heavy public spending and a heavy socialist rhetoric but is also basically a police state where if you challenge Chavez you're going to get disappeared, which is not very "free." Then we have technically communist China (the very left extreme of technical socialism) where there is actually very little public spending and everything is basically user-pays, and the place is also a virtual police state. So trying to concretely define political stances is tricky.

Here in NZ politics is pretty moderate in a narrow band around the centre, and we just don't have hardcore socialist (communist) or extremely right wing political factions.

I think the word "libertarian" would be more accurate for someone who believes in personal freedoms above all else. While I have some libertarian leanings I think the world would be a pretty shitty place if we all just did what we wanted. Human nature would mean things degenerated into wanton slaughter, rape, pillage and general chaos pretty quickly.

wowhaxor said:

I generally don't engage in political arguments as there's no point; both people always think they're right.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because you went to college does not guarantee that you're immediately entitled to a good paying job, I know that many kids are brainwashed from day 1 to think so but that is not how it works. The exception is if they had done the research and chosen a career where there is a huge shortage of professionals and it is something where not anyone can do it, you need a degree to get certification (such as nursing was in huge demand in the recent past). If you're going to school for something where there is no demand for work that is fine too but don't protest, you should have expected it. Instead you're going to have to get a different job for a while or start low and accumulate some experience. Many fields there are way too many people that have the same degree you just got AND have 10-20 years of actual experience in the field as well. You're not entitled to a great job just because you went to school for a couple of years.

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Certainly, certainly, and I see that. But the thing is, there WOULD be those jobs if not for the catastrophic mismanagement of money that caused our current recession, which was started essentially by Wall Street - who then got bailed out by $700 billion dollars of our taxpayer money, and proceeded to give out exuberant bonuses, buy private jets, etc.

Many different people are out protesting, not just hippies or college kids, I've seen marines, veterans of Korea and Vietnam, 9/11 first responders, teachers, librarians, all hardworking and American individuals.

Edit: Check out this U.S marine fending off 30ish cops from beating protestors. BTW, right as this(Occupy Wall Street) happened, JP Morgan donated 5 million dollars to the NYPD, by far the largest donation they've ever got, so they are now essentially Wall Street's bodyguards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys

I really feel like mostly everybody here has no clue what they are talking about.

Nobody is demanding a free ride, they are demanding that our country is not run by the greed of big business anymore. Nobody is lazy on OWS, it takes a lot more than laziness to sleep in the freezing cold in the middle of the park for a cause they feel strongly about, maybe you are the lazy one trying to do IM and work from home the rest of your life? (I already hear the "IM takes a lot of work!" replies coming)

I have an employee from my office who went down, hardest working guy I know, smart as hell, and a marine veteran who served in Iraq. His main job was to pick up body parts from the streets, for a war he didn't believe in (along with most of America). It's more than just college kids with nothing to do.

It's easy for everybody here to say "Oh if you can't find a job just do IM, make a website, etc" because we do this shit or have been for a while. No, not everybody wants to, can do it, or even knows what the hell IM is.

Wake up people, our country and economy are f*cked as of right now. If you don't see anything wrong with our government then I have nothing more to say.

lykathe said:

What do people who decry greed and corruption have to gain? What is their ulterior motive, why do they say these things?

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This is not a homogeneous crowd. There 's people who call against the corruption of the system just because it 's not benefiting them, whilst they 'd have not problem if they where on the list of the beneficiaries. Those will be the first to replace this corrupted system with another more corrupted system

Of course, there are also the ideologists, which are the huge minority and I have respect for them.

However, when people support our current system [...]

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I do it because it works and it 's the most free (in terms of personal freedom) system that has ever existed.

I care about the wellbeing of every human on this planet, and for every million dollars that people who(largely) haven't worked for it, or have lied and cheated to get it hoard

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We all do. We just don't believe that there 's a better viable alternative. I am priding myself to constantly being open to new ideas - but they need to be strictly logical for me to accept them.

a million dollars worth of food isn't given to starving people, and I simply cannot, and will never accept that, as I believe that to be purely evil.

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I don't think anyone on his right mind would want some fellow human being to be hungry and poor. But this is not an argument.

@rakoom2002

Not abrasive at all. PMing you the answer

Big Business and Govt are tied at the hip. Money (big biz) talks and Bullshit (us) walks.

It will never change, the politicians will say whatever to get into power and once they do they will simply create or maintain policy that favors the highest bidder. It has been this way for years and as long as someone is willing to pay there are others willing to be paid.

Certainly, certainly, and I see that. But the thing is, there WOULD be those jobs if not for the catastrophic mismanagement of money that caused our current recession, which was started essentially by Wall Street - who then got bailed out by $700 billion dollars of our taxpayer money, and proceeded to give out exuberant bonuses, buy private jets, etc.

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lykathe said:

Certainly, certainly, and I see that. But the thing is, there WOULD be those jobs if not for the catastrophic mismanagement of money that caused our current recession, which was started essentially by Wall Street - who then got bailed out by $700 billion dollars of our taxpayer money, and proceeded to give out exuberant bonuses, buy private jets, etc.

Many different people are out protesting, not just hippies or college kids, I've seen marines, veterans of Korea and Vietnam, 9/11 first responders, teachers, librarians, all hardworking and American individuals.

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Thanks. I haven't really been following it closely, I read my hometown local paper (in Alaska) I read the local Jacksonville paper and once a week the paper from Oregon (where I lived for a couple of years a couple of times), not so much the national stuff.

What I have caught was probably 4 or 5 interviews and they were all kids (mid 20s) that were complaining they had just gotten out of college and couldn't get a job in their field so that what I thought the protest was all about, guess its more of just a "fed up" protest where people all have their individual grievances with the current government/system in place being the common theme?

Autumn said:

I think the word "libertarian" would be more accurate for someone who believes in personal freedoms above all else.

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Indeed. I just looked it up on wikipedia and I think that would be the correct word for what I meant - not liberal.

My apologies for causing a mess on the thread over semantics

I think the majority of those in that movement are weak.

Make your own way, overcome the obstacles, out work the other guy and it won't matter that there are some inequalities in the system.

There always will be inequalities in the system no matter what they system as the system is man made and we are infallible by nature.

Can't find a gig in your field, go to another field or start your own.

Wall Street/Any Street should not dictate how you are going to support yourself... it certainly does not dictate that to me.

That being said, I'd like that crowd to leave that park this coming weekend as I am going up there for business next week and would like to take some time to show my wife some of the sites and sounds of NYC and that crowd is in one of them.

jazzc said:

This is not a homogeneous crowd. There 's people who call against the corruption of the system just because it 's not benefiting them, whilst they 'd have not problem if they where on the list of the beneficiaries. Those will be the first to replace this corrupted system with another more corrupted system

Of course, there are also the ideologists, which are the huge minority and I have respect for them.



I do it because it works and it 's the most free (in terms of personal freedom) system that has ever existed.



We all do. We just don't believe that there 's a better viable alternative. I am priding myself to constantly being open to new ideas - but they need to be strictly logical for me to accept them.



I don't think anyone on his right mind would want some fellow human being to be hungry and poor. But this is not an argument.

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Truth, truth, but there are certainly people who place humanity over the disdain of not being a "beneficiary". The government could certainly not pay me any amount of money to not speak out against the current practices in the world, and I know there are quite a few like me out there.

It IS the most free, but there are SO many things that could be done to better it, and refine it, but we(the "99%") have absolutely NO say other than the illusion of choice to vote every 4 years.

http://www.deathandtaxesposter.com/

Look how much of our money is spent on KILLING PEOPLE, every year. Or at the very least, the mechanisms and ideology to kill people. How many people are stupidly rich off war profiteering? The estimated figure to end world hunger every year is about 30 billion dollars, while the world spends that collectively on military every 8 days. Could this not be corrected, atleast by a small margin, if all of us decided to say NO, you don't control us, you cannot do this anymore, we want atleast SOME changes for the people, today, and OWS is setting those wheels in motion.

tbsweet52 said:

It's easy for everybody here to say "Oh if you can't find a job just do IM, make a website, etc" because we do this shit or have been for a while. No, not everybody wants to, can do it, or even knows what the hell IM is.

Wake up people, our country and economy are f*cked as of right now. If you don't see anything wrong with our government then I have nothing more to say.

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True to a point but there's always a demand somewhere that can be filled by people with entrepreneurial spirit, online or offline - either that or people have to just bite the bullet and do low paid work that they think is beneath them while they get back on their feet.

Yes the economy is in the shits world wide but people have to wake up and realize that it's not coming back. We are on the cusp of a global paradigm change in global economics and we are seeing the massive shift of wealth from West to East that people have been talking about for so long - because America is basically turning into a giant slum filled with obese, lazy, poorly educated oil burners who demand much higher wages than their hard working and increasing well educated counterparts in the East. Now I am certainly not trashing all Americans, many of whom are intelligent and hardworking people, but there is no denying the US's current slide into Idiocracy.

Yes the American government is fucked and so is your perverse single party system masquerading as democracy. But those 99%ers are going to be the ones voting for politicians (on both sides) who promise benefits and minimum wage laws and more spending - all the things that we DON'T need. Government intervention causes a misallocation of capital and what we really need is for the government to get out of the way and let entrepreneurs do their job, which is by definition the efficient allocation of capital.

However it's all a moot point because the decline of America is now so far in motion that there's no stopping the sinking ship. It can only be steered a little bit further with the momentum it already has. Best for us to prepare for the inevitable hyperinflationary nightmare which is about to beset us.

lykathe said:

Truth, truth, but there are certainly people who place humanity over the disdain of not being a "beneficiary". The government could certainly not pay me any amount of money to not speak out against the current practices in the world, and I know there are quite a few like me out there.

It IS the most free, but there are SO many things that could be done to better it, and refine it, but we(the "99%") have absolutely NO say other than the illusion of choice to vote every 4 years.

http://www.deathandtaxesposter.com/

Look how much of our money is spent on KILLING PEOPLE, every year. Or at the very least, the mechanisms and ideology to kill people. How many people are stupidly rich off war profiteering? The estimated figure to end world hunger every year is about 30 billion dollars, while the world spends that collectively on military every 8 days. Could this not be corrected, atleast by a small margin, if all of us decided to say NO, you don't control us, you cannot do this anymore, we want atleast SOME changes for the people, today, and OWS is setting those wheels in motion.

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I totally agree with this. We don't have so different views after all.

These 'lazy' idiots know exactly what they're fighting for. USA is in a massive amount of debt and have no money, yet the people in charge are richer than ever. So that means something has to change.

The United States Federal Reserve is a privately owned business. The United States is getting all of their money from this Federal Reserve, all of which is owed back to the Reserve + Interest. That is what they're fighting against, this corrupt system is exactly what needs to be changed. The fact that they're making money out of thin air with debt attached to it is mind numbing. How in the world do you stop inflation with inflation?

These protesters may be lazy or maybe you're too lazy to listen.

You guys should check a recently made study by some students of the ETH Zurich (which Einstein went to btw.).

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1107/1107.5728v2.pdf

According to the study, 147 global players (which are extremely connected between each other) are controlling 80% of the worldwide turnover and 40% of the worldwide assets.

And if you take a look at the statistic payment increases from 1997 to 2007. The salary of the 1% has increased by over 200% and the salary of the richest 0,1% has increased by even 400%. In comparison to that, the average people only had an increase of about 5% over the same timespan.

Of course, it is not a surprise that the guys with the budgets are making the most money. Nothing against that at all, but if you take a closer look what they are really doing with a lot of their money is working against humanity.

For example politics in america. The biggest sponsor of Obama during election time was Goldman Sachs. And now don't tell me they threw so much money on his campaigns just for the lulz. Take a look where all his finance counselors and so on are coming from...

But in my eyes, the most shady thing which is being done at Wall Street is the following.
Bill Clinton repealed the Glass-Steagal Act in 1999, which basically prohibited the banks to play with the assets of their customers at the stock market. And that was the time where all the fun started. Banks began to play with money they did not really own. For every dollar they got from a customer, they invested 10 bucks more into the stock market or something else (random numbers). Thats why they are so scared that people start withdrawing all their money, cause in reality they have maybe 10% (guess number) of the money of their customers in the bank.

And the worst part is, they are "too big to fail". So they can do everything they want. Because if they go down, everything will. And government of course can not allow such a collapse and the people have to pay for the wrong investments of the banks (rescue packages => taxes).

Regarding the "too big to fail" thing. I think the american top 10 banks currently own 70% market share or something. Some years ago it was "only" 50%. Not quite sure about that, but their impact on the market is immense and growing.

That text might not have had something to do with the OWS movement, but it just represents my point of view on that.
Im pretty sure a lot of people on here will never become victims of the debt system, simply because we do not really rely on the job/market situation (at least i do).

But we should think of the other 90% who are not like us and who are losers of the game/system. And 90 or even 99% losers in the system is a way too high and unacceptable number.

Indeed, check out Bank of America moving 74 trillion dollars into FDIC(taxpayer) insured bank accounts like 2-3 days ago.
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/bank-america-trying-stick-taxpayers-7
So if the banking system fails, they get 74 trillion dollars? LOL. The system is rigged against us, sadly. It's not the world I want my family and (hopefully) children growing up in, but I know we can't lie to ourselves to make the situation any less real.

USA is in a massive amount of debt and have no money, yet the people in charge are richer than ever. So that means something has to change.
The United States Federal Reserve is a privately owned business. The United States is getting all of their money from this Federal Reserve, all of which is owed back to the Reserve + Interest. That is what they're fighting against, this corrupt system is exactly what needs to be changed. The fact that they're making money out of thin air with debt attached to it is mind numbing. How in the world do you stop inflation with inflation?

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Absolutely true. Yet inflation is the byproduct of using fiat currency. So, in essence you have to abolish fiat money to stop that. Which would mean the utter destruction of the current US economy and power of the world.

facebookdude said:

These 'lazy' idiots know exactly what they're fighting for. [...] These protesters may be lazy or maybe you're too lazy to listen.

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Now, here 's the problem. I went on and read the transcript from the lykathe 's link posted above that has the formal "demands" of the movent (here: http://current.com/shows/countdown/blog/complete-transcript-for-oct-05-2011).

Those people DO NOT want what you want. Read it

jazzc said:

Absolutely true. Yet inflation is the byproduct of using fiat currency. So, in essence you have to abolish fiat money to stop that. Which would mean the utter destruction of the current US economy and power of the world.



Now, here 's the problem. I went on and read the transcript from the lykathe 's link posted above that has the formal "demands" of the movent (here: http://current.com/shows/countdown/blog/complete-transcript-for-oct-05-2011).

Those people DO NOT want what you want. Read it

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Sorry, I didn't look at the link specifically, as I thought it was just a mirror of the video I had seen before, and I was trying to get it on quickly. This link has the demands I've seen. http://wilderside.wordpress.com/2011/09/22/occupy-wall-street-finally-releases-their-one-demand/

Apparently too many people here watch Fox News and swallow the spoon fed shit they have on air. The same goes for the garbage being spewed out of MSNBC. These are nothing more than propaganda machines for the powers that be - whether big corporation, union or other politically connected interest.

I support the people in OWS simply because freedom of speech and peaceful assembly is an American right. There are those that want to take these rights away from everyone, to promote their self interests, and sweep these people under the rug. Thank God some people in this country still have some balls and are not afraid to protest for change.

A lot of people in these occupy protests were once skilled workers in the manufacturing industry. Those jobs have fled to China so these companies could become more profitable. Others simply closed. A fact though is that a lot of machinery from these now defunct manufacturing companies is being exported to China and calculated as part of our overall exports. It's just another way to fudge the numbers to inflate the USA export numbers.

In the IM industry I need consumers with money spending so that I can earn a buck. The Chinese don't visit my sites to buy anything, just to spam the fuck out of me. Fuck it -I flat out block their IP addresses by country on many of my sites. The "job creators" that Fox News cares about so much is a bunch of bullshit. The majority of these people sock away as much as they can in savings. Will a tax hike hurt them more than cutting someone's socialism security? I think not. Everyone should sacrifice for the greater good of the country and future generations.

Why are the people occupying wall street? I dunno, pick any of the problems in the USA (bailing out banks and auto companies, letting China dictate America's economic future, going to war for BS reasons, a federal financial crisis that results in no wage cuts for federal workers, etc.). Sure, there are some goofballs at wall street. In IM, one knows its a numbers game. When large groups of people gather, the same applies - some will be whackos and those are the people FOX News interviews. MSNBC interviews the more intelligent ones. CNN has called both media outlets out for such tactics.

Why is it that China's economy is growing at a 9%+ annual rate when so many western countries are hurting? Regardless, who the fuck would try to spread democracy by going to war and give a communist run nation most favored nation trade status?

To compete in this "global economy" the USA already has two presidential candidates talking about doing away with the minimum wage. We are in a race to match the living standards of our trade partners (China, etc.) and the American standard of living will have to decline much faster to quickly become competitive once again in a global economy. After all, a country needs to produce something to trade in a global economy. America can't sustain itself exporting debt and used machinery from closed down manufacturing plants indefinitely. A better plan needs to be developed. A great start would be pulling the plug on both FOX News and MSNBC so that people would be forced to think once again instead of ingesting propaganda from those networks.

assphuck said:

I support the people in OWS simply because freedom of speech and peaceful assembly is an American right.

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So do I but tell them to get out for next weekend and I'll buy them all a beer.