Which programming language is most widely used for web development?

lucky.sparks said:
By how you search I can tell you are affected by confirmation bias. You find one article against frameworks and think it's a viable source to share, but there will be thousands of articles why you should use frameworks. The same behavior can be seen with anti-vaxxers and conspiracists.

That is why I want to know something, I google the opposite of what I think, e.g. - instead of googling "why frameworks bad", you should search "why frameworks good".

But you do you, old-timer. I've noted that guys your age thinks that they know best, and their opinion can't be affected or changed, so I will not even try. My old stepdad(graphic designer) is exactly the same. No one wants his works anymore and he says it's because he's 'overqualified' and no one can't afford him. But in reality he uses techniques used 20 years ago, well, back then he was a kickass designer tbh. Nowadays, those designs are considered outdated.

The world changes, it moves very quickly, and if one want to survive in professional consultancy business, they must change along with it.
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of course there is always good and bad. however you dont see the point and ignore all the facts. sure frameworks make it easy, you dont need to know what you are doing, you can produce code faster and easy, but thats not always good. sure for you its good as you dont have to spend time learning low level stuff, but it doesnt mean you produce good code just because you use framewworks.
also you assume i stopped learning 10 years ago or something. in programming you always have to keep learning, so its not like i'm using outdated technics or code. in fact i still learn new languages every now and then. the difference is i understand the underlying technology, while you just use functions other people wrote for you.
 
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itz_styx said:
of course there is always good and bad. however you dont see the point and ignore all the facts. sure frameworks make it easy, you dont need to know what you are doing, you can produce code faster and easy, but thats not always good. sure for you its good as you dont have to spend time learning low level stuff, but it doesnt mean you produce good code just because you use framewworks.
also you assume i stopped learning 10 years ago or something. in programming you always have to keep learning, so its not like i'm using outdated technics or code. in fact i still learn new languages every now and then. the difference is i understand the underlying technology, while you just use functions other people wrote for you.
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You use a lot of assumptions.

1. I see your point, but I just disagree with it, because I had a lot of clients who had such devs and custom made frameworks, in every such case, projects grow out of them and are impossible to maintain anymore, their devs then leave because they can't handle their own code structure, etc. This is why frameworks are useful, even for small projects, they offer a structure that can be then expanded without worries. We had a project so large that it would be impossible to change the code base and we were forced to use it. And it was well written actually, good, clean code, but to do simple things it usually would took days instead of hours, just because the project lack the functionality of what framework can offer.

2. Argument about good code is useless because good code or bad code can be produced with or without a framework.

3. I did not assume you stopped learning, I assume you stopped to follow the trends and tech development as such.

4. It's not so much about outdated code but more about the learning curve and maintainability. I was the same about 12 years ago, I liked to make my own framework that my team then used to develop the products for our clients. When we switched to frameworks, our dev speed skyrocketed. Learning curve decreased, because we could hire devs that knew the specific framework, it all went just in the right tracks.

5. In my mind understanding the underlying tech is a must, same as using a framework to write code faster, better, more structured. A framework is not an unnecessary overhead but a pack of rules, coding standards, and best practices. And those functions other people wrote for us - are just nice to have additions to write faster and better.

Hope you at least follow PSR.
 
lucky.sparks said:
You use a lot of assumptions.

1. I see your point, but I just disagree with it, because I had a lot of clients who had such devs and custom made frameworks, in every such case, projects grow out of them and are impossible to maintain anymore, their devs then leave because they can't handle their own code structure, etc. This is why frameworks are useful, even for small projects, they offer a structure that can be then expanded without worries. We had a project so large that it would be impossible to change the code base and we were forced to use it. And it was well written actually, good, clean code, but to do simple things it usually would took days instead of hours, just because the project lack the functionality of what framework can offer.

2. Argument about good code is useless because good code or bad code can be produced with or without a framework.

3. I did not assume you stopped learning, I assume you stopped to follow the trends and tech development as such.

4. It's not so much about outdated code but more about the learning curve and maintainability. I was the same about 12 years ago, I liked to make my own framework that my team then used to develop the products for our clients. When we switched to frameworks, our dev speed skyrocketed. Learning curve decreased, because we could hire devs that knew the specific framework, it all went just in the right tracks.

5. In my mind understanding the underlying tech is a must, same as using a framework to write code faster, better, more structured. A framework is not an unnecessary overhead but a pack of rules, coding standards, and best practices. And those functions other people wrote for us - are just nice to have additions to write faster and better.

Hope you at least follow PSR.
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Great explanation.

@itz_styx

We are not using other's functions. We are just inheriting and overriding the methods. If it's wrong, then why did they implement the OOP concept?. So, there is nothing wrong with using the frameworks as they will not degrade our coding skills in any situation.
 
I much prefer python (flask + gunicorn + nginx) for my own projects
 
Well, another reason to use frameworks: python with django is sooo much power ..

You can build a project and django will auto-magically build admin site for it as you go.

How cool is that?
 
lucky.sparks said:
Well, another reason to use frameworks: python with django is sooo much power ..

You can build a project and django will auto-magically build admin site for it as you go.

How cool is that?
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I have been using Django for the last 2 years. I switched from PHP to python when I got to know how powerful it is. It may be hard at the beginning, but trust me once you learn it properly, you will never go back to PHP and also you may get addicted to it. Django is the most powerful framework for full-stack web development..
 
its exactly what i said frameworks help to speed up development and make it easier to write code, BUT they can introduce a wide range of problems. especially when programmers only rely on them.
imagine you have to solve a problem that isnt done by default in the framework. you would have to customize certain functions, then when the framework gets updated you have to re-do everything and you always depend on how things are done in the framework. you could also just keep using the old customized framework and then possibly leave security issues in there that have been fixed in newer versions.
of course i follow trends and tech development otherwise you can't keep up. however not every trend is good.
the learning curve is also there when you use a framework as you have to learn it to use it properly. however many people just learn the basics just enough so they can get done what they need.
just because code is readable doesn't make it good. there is a nice saying "making things foolproof results in better fools" ;)
anyways to wrap this up, then lets agree to disagree. if you want to use frameworks then go ahead, but don't assume everything not using frameworks is bad.
 
prvncpa said:
I have been using Django for the last 2 years. I switched from PHP to python when I got to know how powerful it is. It may be hard at the beginning, but trust me once you learn it properly, you will never go back to PHP and also you may get addicted to it. Django is the most powerful framework for full-stack web development..
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So I was wrong thinking PHP frameworks do a lot.

lucky.sparks said:
In building web applications, I don't assume it, I know it's bad.
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The dude is just tripping on his COBOL and C code he wrote in the 80s.

He probably has so much code at this point, he can just copy his own work and it would be faster thanks to this.

All his apps are probably C++ and they will never be a web app. Why? Because he WILL NOT enter the clusterfuck called javascript.

He cannot write javascript, so frameworks like angular and vue are useless to him.
 
itz_styx said:
its exactly what i said frameworks help to speed up development and make it easier to write code, BUT they can introduce a wide range of problems. especially when programmers only rely on them.
imagine you have to solve a problem that isnt done by default in the framework. you would have to customize certain functions, then when the framework gets updated you have to re-do everything and you always depend on how things are done in the framework. you could also just keep using the old customized framework and then possibly leave security issues in there that have been fixed in newer versions.
of course i follow trends and tech development otherwise you can't keep up. however not every trend is good.
the learning curve is also there when you use a framework as you have to learn it to use it properly. however many people just learn the basics just enough so they can get done what they need.
just because code is readable doesn't make it good. there is a nice saying "making things foolproof results in better fools" ;)
anyways to wrap this up, then lets agree to disagree. if you want to use frameworks then go ahead, but don't assume everything not using frameworks is bad.
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If you constantly have to hack the framework and override its default structure, I think you are doing something wrong.

Maybe you pick not enough powerful technology stack for your need. Enjoy writing vanilla JS and pure CSS. :D

If you don't have some feature provided out of the box, you write it on your own. You can create classess, functions, modules and libraries. I can't see your point this time.
 
crnack said:
..
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I guess yeah, well when it comes to frontend frameworks, I couldn't think my life without them right now.

And I'm not a frontend dev, never was.

Even now, I usually try to prototype UI part without vue.js, but soon I'm so annoyed by what I need to do that I force myself to go full vue and then after breaking a small learning curve, it's just a pleasure to use it.

I could not imagine my world without frontend frameworks now, it would be a real hell and I would probably quit programming or only outsource.
 
lucky.sparks said:
I guess yeah, well when it comes to frontend frameworks, I couldn't think my life without them right now.

And I'm not a frontend dev, never was.

Even now, I usually try to prototype UI part without vue.js, but soon I'm so annoyed by what I need to do that I force myself to go full vue and then after breaking a small learning curve, it's just a pleasure to use it.

I could not imagine my world without frontend frameworks now, it would be a real hell and I would probably quit programming or only outsource.
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I actually did quit until someone showed me React and Spring projects. :D
Now it's a breeze.
 
You should consider trying LiveCode for web development. It works nicely with HTML-5, CSS, Javascript, many open source databases, and is easy to understand because it is an english-like scripting language. I am not an affiliate for them. I just like the language. Try out the community version which is always free.
 
crnack said:
If you constantly have to hack the framework and override its default structure, I think you are doing something wrong.

Maybe you pick not enough powerful technology stack for your need. Enjoy writing vanilla JS and pure CSS. :D

If you don't have some feature provided out of the box, you write it on your own. You can create classess, functions, modules and libraries. I can't see your point this time.
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i think you didnt read right. i said if there is a logical problem you have to solve that the framework doesnt provide out of the box, then you would have to modify it.
or well return to write your own native code (which is apparently "outdated" for junior developers lol).
JS and CSS are super easy, so why not write it unless you got a very huge project in which case i also said for stuff like HTML/CSS using a framework like bootstrap i do myself to save time.
you suggest writing your own code in the end, which i said all along that thats better and well then i got bitched at for not relying on frameworks only, which is ridiculous.
so anyways this discussion is pointless. some people just want easy solutions and dont how its done as long as it gets the job done without much work, so frameworks are perfect for those hobby coders.
 
itz_styx said:
i think you didnt read right. i said if there is a logical problem you have to solve that the framework doesnt provide out of the box, then you would have to modify it.
or well return to write your own native code (which is apparently "outdated" for junior developers lol).
JS and CSS are super easy, so why not write it unless you got a very huge project in which case i also said for stuff like HTML/CSS using a framework like bootstrap i do myself to save time.
you suggest writing your own code in the end, which i said all along that thats better and well then i got bitched at for not relying on frameworks only, which is ridiculous.
so anyways this discussion is pointless. some people just want easy solutions and dont how its done as long as it gets the job done without much work, so frameworks are perfect for those hobby coders.
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In most cases it's easy to figure out what the framework does. Native code is fine as long as you aren't simply skipping the framework.
 
crnack said:
In most cases it's easy to figure out what the framework does. Native code is fine as long as you aren't simply skipping the framework.
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it was not about figuring out what the framework does, my example was about something the framework cant do out of the box.
anyways nevermind this whole discussion is far away now from the OP's question so whatever :)
 
itz_styx said:
it was not about figuring out what the framework does, my example was about something the framework cant do out of the box.
anyways nevermind this whole discussion is far away now from the OP's question so whatever :)
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Yes, I asked about the best language not framework. So, as per your opinion, PHP is good right?
 
for creating websites PHP works well yes, afterall thats what its made for.
 
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