Where to hire really good web developers?

Gogol said:

Code:

https://github.com/dsjen

Email is avilable on the left side.


@ thread

I find it funny how people judge devs by their countries. LMAO. Anyway, I have nothing to say about that. Think what you want to think. Atleast I know whom to ignore.

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Wow. Thanks a lot.

lucky.sparks said:

The suggestions above are crazy, you will not find anything.

The best source is Upwork.

And go for Romanian, Ukrainian or Belarusian agencies or freelancers, in this order. You can get top talent for really low prices.

Avoid Indian, Pakistan, and similar, even if the price is good, you probably already know what will be the outcome.

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Upwork is definitely a great place to find talented developers with proven track record but upwork fees is way to high and unreasonable IMHO. Apart from that they have also started charging for each bid/proposal you make. Charging for proposal will certainly eliminate people who are not serious but then again charging commission for the deal is quite unreasonable.

Also your perspective about Indian developers is totally wrong. There are MANY great developers in India but most of them don't have a business/entrepreneur mindset hence end up working in multi national companies. Huge IT companies are been run by Indians. Maybe you had few bad experiences but you shouldn't judge the entire country based on few of them. It could be little difficult to find the right talent for your project but once you do it's gonna be a very long lasting business relation.

pavan said:

Also your perspective about Indian developers is totally wrong. There are MANY great developers in India but most of them don't have a business/entrepreneur mindset hence end up working in multi national companies. Huge IT companies are been run by Indians. Maybe you had few bad experiences but you shouldn't judge the entire country based on few of them. It could be little difficult to find the right talent for your project but once you do it's gonna be a very long lasting business relation.

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There are no wrongs or rights when it comes to experience, that is just what I have experienced.

And it's MY experience about doing business on these PLATFORMS, so you can't really state - "there are good devs just not on those platforms, so you are wrong about what you say about freelancers on those platforms". My guess would be you are from India. You are making assumptions and comments without focus and understanding of the subject. A common problem. Just as same as @Gogol . This just proves my point guys.

And I didn't have few bad experiences.

From about 20-30 devs I tried to work with and 2-3 agencies, only 1 freelancer was a pleasant experience. Agencies were a nightmare as well. So the ratio is too low to waste time on them. And I did tried to hire freelancers with high hourly rates as well in hopes they will be different. They all shared very different mentalities and ways of thinking, most of them feel no shame to lie at all. And be sure when I say that I did deep due diligence, interviews, and selection process before hiring.

Yes, I agree that when you find that one good apple, it's a nice experience, but till you will find it - you will lose money(a lot of it), nerves, time and any happiness you still got in yourself.

And again, I have no problem about nationality or race, this forum is full of super cool guys from India and so on, they are way smarter than me, more successful, and way more experienced. My favorite logo designer is from Bangladesh. He's borderline genius and makes unique logos for under $100. But when it comes to freelancing platforms and software development - the chance you will lose money if hiring someone from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - is high and this risk must be counted in.

When it comes to hiring from Ukraine, Russia, Romania, and other eastern European countries - the bad apple ratio is 2/10, not the 9/10.

lucky.sparks said:

There are no wrongs or rights when it comes to experience, that is just what I have experienced.

And it's MY experience about doing business on these PLATFORMS, so you can't really state - "there are good devs just not on those platforms, so you are wrong about what you say". My guess would be you are from India and this just proves my point - you are making assumptions and comments without focus and understanding of the subject. A common problem.

And I didn't have few bad experiences.

From about 20-30 devs I tried to work with and 2-3 agencies, only 1 freelancer was a pleasant experience. Agencies were a nightmare as well. So the ratio is too low to waste time on them. And I did tried to hire freelancers with high hourly rates as well in hopes they will be different. They all shared very different mentalities and ways of thinking, most of them feel no shame to lie at all.

Yes, I agree that when you find that one good apple, it's a nice experience, but till you will find it - you will lose money(a lot of it), nerves, time and any happiness you still got in yourself.

And again, I have no problem about nationality or race, this forum is full of super cool guys from India and so on, they are way smarter than me, more successful, and way more experienced. My favorite logo designer is from Bangladesh. He's borderline genius and makes unique logos for under $100. But when it comes to freelancing platforms and software development - the chance you will lose money if hiring someone from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - is high and this risk must be counted in.

When it comes to hiring from Ukraine, Russia, Romania, and other eastern European countries - the bad apple ratio is 2/10, not the 9/10.

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I have worked for a small software company for a while.
They fired 2 Hindi people in 6 months since the start.
They were looking for developers in the 12th month of their existence.
They encountered Hindi people. When they were talking to each other, the Hindi people didn't say a word of truth.
To every question they were asked about their experience, they would ask a minute or two while being muted.
They supposedly Googled everything and hence the waiting time.
Their microphone quality was completely unacceptable. Noises in the background and more.
So in 3 cases, 3 Hindi developers were worse than domestic junior EU devs.

crnack said:

I have worked for a small software company for a while.
They fired 2 Hindi people in 6 months since the start.
They were looking for developers in the 12th month of their existence.
They encountered Hindi people. When they were talking to each other, the Hindi people didn't say a word of truth.
To every question they were asked about their experience, they would ask a minute or two while being muted.
They supposedly Googled everything and hence the waiting time.
Their microphone quality was completely unacceptable. Noises in the background and more.
So in 3 cases, 3 developers were worse than junior domestic EU devs.

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Yes, pretty much sounds the same I heard from other agencies here in north europe. They all want to exploit this workforce because of how cheap it is, but oooh boi, it comes with a different price tag and not in money.

And the stories I got from US clients when they tried to work with indian agencies - are borderline nightmares. Code bases were not usable and needed to be discarded completely.

lucky.sparks said:

Yes, pretty much sounds the same I heard from other agencies here in north europe. They all want to exploit this workforce because of how cheap it is, but oooh boi, it comes with a different price tag and not in money.

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Those EU devs were bad as hell since they jumped into the software development out of the blue.
They have never used commercial, business software and they had to develop it.
That was a little bit too much.

nethead01 said:

I find it a struggle to find really good web developers and designers, does anyone have recommendations of where I can find them at? Freelancer is garbage these days, where did all the good talent go?

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i Must Only Recommend Upwork for this Special Thing you asked for upwork is the Best

lucky.sparks said:

The suggestions above are crazy, you will not find anything.

The best source is Upwork.

And go for Romanian, Ukrainian or Belarusian agencies or freelancers, in this order. You can get top talent for really low prices.

Avoid Indian, Pakistan, and similar, even if the price is good, you probably already know what will be the outcome.

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Lol bro please calm down with your racial thoughts. I am Indian and working with US and Europe clients for several years now through upwork and they are fully satisfied with Indians and Bangladeshi. They do pay us more then average Asian country but we deliver quality work. If you have budget for good developers then you can hire quality dev from any country. Also cheap Dev on up work exist because there is market for those too. Some clients don't want super quality work because it did not fit in their revenue model. Try to check top developer profiles on up work which are consistently rated from several years and you will find lots of Indians and Pakistanis.

krazylearner said:

Lol bro please calm down with your racial thoughts. I am Indian and working with US and Europe clients for several years now through upwork and they are fully satisfied with Indians and Bangladeshi. They do pay us more then average Asian country but we deliver quality work. If you have budget for good developers then you can hire quality dev from any country. Also cheap Dev on up work exist because there is market for those too. Some clients don't want super quality work because it did not fit in their revenue model. Try to check top developer profiles on up work which are consistently rated from several years and you will find lots of Indians and Pakistanis.

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Read the full post before commenting, no racial thoughts. You are an exception then, not the average. By commenting without reading the full post - you just again prove my point.

lucky.sparks said:

And go for Romanian, Ukrainian or Belarusian agencies or freelancers, in this order. You can get top talent for really low prices.

Avoid Indian, Pakistan, and similar, even if the price is good, you probably already know what will be the outcome.

Click to expand...

I'm starting to feel the same way. I found 2 people in Pakistan who are solid. Otherwise, I couldn't tell you how many Indians I've hired. Some were talented, but the cultural gap was too great. Of the Pakistanis, I'm paying one of them $23 per hour, which is close to $55k per year. I could probably get a lower/mid level US based person for that. However, this particular Pakistani person is good at her job and understands USA culture, and speaks perfect English.

I've had really good luck hiring out of the Philippines. Actually, I've had good and bad luck, but I've had the same 3 Philippines people full time for the past 4-5 years.

My friend hired some Ukrainians and they were excellent. They seemed expensive, but their work output was very good.

I want to try hiring out of Belarus, since it's where John Wick is from. Surely they will be people of focus, determination, and sheer f*cking will.

I think the key is finding people who will make decisions. Not robots. Robots will only do exactly what you tell them and nothing more or less. I need people who can think and go outside of the instructions to make something right.

lucky.sparks said:

Read the full post before commenting, no racial thoughts. You are an exception then, not the average.

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Check top top rated freelancers on Upwork. It contains lots of Asians from India pak and bangladesh.

krazylearner said:

Lol bro please calm down with your racial thoughts. I am Indian and working with US and Europe clients for several years now through upwork and they are fully satisfied with Indians and Bangladeshi. They do pay us more then average Asian country but we deliver quality work. If you have budget for good developers then you can hire quality dev from any country. Also cheap Dev on up work exist because there is market for those too. Some clients don't want super quality work because it did not fit in their revenue model. Try to check top developer profiles on up work which are consistently rated from several years and you will find lots of Indians and Pakistanis.

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It's okay. You can prove your work with your portfolio. You don't need to be fearful of ethnic issues.

krazylearner said:

Check top top rated freelancers on Upwork. It contains lots of Asians from India pak and bangladesh.

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there is no doubt about that. But to get this top-rated is impossible, they are overloaded with work and it costs a lot. I'm not talking about top talent, but average, overall experience you will get if you try to work with asian countries on freelancing platforms.

arc323 said:

I'm starting to feel the same way. I found 2 people in Pakistan who are solid. Otherwise, I couldn't tell you how many Indians I've hired. Some were talented, but the cultural gap was too great. Of the Pakistanis, I'm paying one of them $23 per hour, which is close to $55k per year. I could probably get a lower/mid level US based person for that. However, this particular Pakistani person is good at her job and understands USA culture, and speaks perfect English.

I've had really good luck hiring out of the Philippines. Actually, I've had good and bad luck, but I've had the same 3 Philippines people full time for the past 4-5 years.

My friend hired some Ukrainians and they were excellent. They seemed expensive, but their work output was very good.

I want to try hiring out of Belarus, since it's where John Wick is from. Surely they will be people of focus, determination, and sheer f*cking will.

I think the key is finding people who will make decisions. Not robots. Robots will only do exactly what you tell them and nothing more or less. I need people who can think and go outside of the instructions to make something right.

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I have seen some excellent work by Ukrainian developers too. Even their ad and marketing campaigns were outstanding from the EU crowd.
What is in your opinion the perfect English?
I saw a structure like that: the boss who hired the tech lead to guide juniors and those juniors were doing the smallest possible tasks, like robots.
So this can work, but this tech lead will be overwhelmed by the number of junior questions.
And those juniors will be overwhelmed by the complexity and even the functionality of the software.
Juniors are occupied with understanding the technology and so they have trouble understanding the software purpose at the same time.

krazylearner said:

Lol bro please calm down with your racial thoughts. I am Indian and working with US and Europe clients for several years now through upwork and they are fully satisfied with Indians and Bangladeshi. They do pay us more then average Asian country but we deliver quality work. If you have budget for good developers then you can hire quality dev from any country. Also cheap Dev on up work exist because there is market for those too. Some clients don't want super quality work because it did not fit in their revenue model. Try to check top developer profiles on up work which are consistently rated from several years and you will find lots of Indians and Pakistanis.

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I think you are definitely the exception. I know there are lots of excellent creatives and developers in India and Pakistan, but I have not been successful in finding more than 2. I actually did a JV with one of them and I would consider him a friend.

I've even tried paying really high wages. As I said, my current person from Pakistan is paid $23 per hour for full time work, which is much higher than the average wage in that part of the world.

One gripe I have about offshore people in general, if that they never tell you how much they are requesting for salary. I was interviewing a dude from India the other day. I was going to hire him. I was budgeting up to $20 per hour for the position. I asked him his requested salary and he said, "Well how much are you paying?" I said, "We have a budget for full time employee, so just tell your salary requirement. Just tell me how much you need to make for 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. If it's too high we will negotiate." Then he said, "Let me think about it and I will get back to you." - I'm not hiring this dude now.

In the US and most western countries, you request a salary, whatever it may be, then the employer will make you an offer. Sometimes the employer will post the salary for the job and there is not negotiation, but most corporate jobs do not publish the salary and it's up to the employee and hiring manager to work that out. Reason is because you want to hire talent but you also want to get a good deal. You want to pay people as little as possible but not so low that they don't care about the job or that they will immediately be looking for another job. I just tell people the position pays a living wage in their part of the world and to request how much they feel they are worth. If that's too much to ask then I'm not hiring them.

lucky.sparks said:

there is no doubt about that. But to get this top-rated is impossible, they are overloaded with work and it costs a lot. I'm not talking about top talent, but average, overall experience you will get if you try to work with asian countries on freelancing platforms.

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write pm pls

arc323 said:

I think you are definitely the exception. I know there are lots of excellent creatives and developers in India and Pakistan, but I have not been successful in finding more than 2. I actually did a JV with one of them and I would consider him a friend.

I've even tried paying really high wages. As I said, my current person from Pakistan is paid $23 per hour for full time work, which is much higher than the average wage in that part of the world.

One gripe I have about offshore people in general, if that they never tell you how much they are requesting for salary. I was interviewing a dude from India the other day. I was going to hire him. I was budgeting up to $20 per hour for the position. I asked him his requested salary and he said, "Well how much are you paying?" I said, "We have a budget for full time employee, so just tell your salary requirement. Just tell me how much you need to make for 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. If it's too high we will negotiate." Then he said, "Let me think about it and I will get back to you." - I'm not hiring this dude now.

In the US and most western countries, you request a salary, whatever it may be, then the employer will make you an offer. Sometimes the employer will post the salary for the job and there is not negotiation, but most corporate jobs do not publish the salary and it's up to the employee and hiring manager to work that out. Reason is because you want to hire talent but you also want to get a good deal. You want to pay people as little as possible but not so low that they don't care about the job or that they will immediately be looking for another job. I just tell people the position pays a living wage in their part of the world and to request how much they feel they are worth. If that's too much to ask then I'm not hiring them.

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I was asked to do full-time position for $10k annually in the east EU. Couldn't do my work due to my dignity. And I was slooow as hell.
I almost wanted to quit this whole development field, but I reminded myself I didn't learn it for some random outsourcing software company.
The company culture was a complete miss. It was just about getting as many designs coded in as short time as possible to please the client.

lucky.sparks said:

You are making assumptions and comments without focus and understanding of the subject. A common problem. Just as same as @Gogol . This just proves my point guys.

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Oh really? Please explain this..

lucky.sparks said:

The suggestions above are crazy, you will not find anything.

The best source is Upwork.

And go for Romanian, Ukrainian or Belarusian agencies or freelancers, in this order. You can get top talent for really low prices.

Avoid Indian, Pakistan, and similar, even if the price is good, you probably already know what will be the outcome.

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P.s. I did not want to get into this war, but you asked for it.

I just checked your about me profile. You seem to be a dev (LOL, I would love to see your work. Mr. Spark). How many have you hired till date? Do you conduct interviews before hiring? Do you bother to speak with the developer before throwing money on them?

What I think is you are speaking from your "back side", and you have no idea about how to hire a developer.

Coming to development, there are crappy developers; average developers and then there are good ones. IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER WHERE THEY ARE FROM, if you know what I mean. LOL.

crnack said:

I have seen some excellent work by Ukrainian developers too. Even their ad and marketing campaigns were outstanding from the EU crowd.
What is in your opinion the perfect English?

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Yeah man! I need to find me some Ukrainians! Ukraine peeps, where y'all at??

My opinion of perfect English is someone who can write ad copy using colloquial English. Someone who understands possessive tense like "Adam's baseball got lost" or how to use plural words correctly.

For example, I have a designer on staff who is pretty good at doing social media posts (not ads but posts). She commonly misspells words or puts an "s" on the end of stuff. The other day she wrote, "Removes Fats and Cellulites from Body" and "I'am acne free" and "Give a personalize gifts to your friend and families" - I think none of those are outright bad, but we certainly can't send that text to a client or use it on ads. It definitely reads like it was written by someone who's first language is not English. Anyhow, I just told her to use grammarly.

Spelling errors like that are super small, but they will make a difference and a client will certainly catch it. No sense in sending it to a client and having them call us out. Plus, I'm not comfortable having spelling errors on ads and social posts, since we have to actually make money and sell stuff online lol.

Gogol said:

I just checked your about me profile. You seem to be a dev (LOL, I would love to see your work. Mr. Spark). How many have you hired till date? Do you conduct interviews before hiring? Do you bother to speak with the developer before throwing money on them?

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You sound like you want to show here that we are all lying and none of us have anything to do with the software.
Maybe show us your work. Oh, it's not a recruitment platform. It's BHW.