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The Current Education System

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by Zwielicht, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. Zwielicht

    Zwielicht Moderator in Training Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    If you're in the lounge you probably saw RakeItIn's thread about his opinion on the USA's education system. If not, then you can view it below:
    I'm honestly a bit tired of seeing these threads because it's the same thing: one person says "college sucks", another person telling them they're stupid, another person attacking the person for calling the original poster stupid, the OP attacking the second guy, and it just keeps going on like this:
    [​IMG]
    So to (hopefully) end these threads and possibly promote some intelligent discussion about the current education system and how it can be imporved, I'm starting this thread explaining my view on the current education system.

    Note: Too indolent to read all of this? Then skip to section 10.

    Section 1: Welcome To The Accreditation System
    Let me tell you a little secret: most schools are part of a social game. Notice I said "most" as I'll get to that in a moment. Before I begin, let me tell you about why people romanticise college and school in general.

    Section 2: History of Educational Romanticism
    Once upon a time in 1840, higher education was only available to opulent white men. Everyone else was required to work extremely low-paying jobs and they were not given the opportunity to work their way up. However, in 1848, opulent women were allowed into college universities. Now college was available to opulent white men and women. However, more people still wanted access to this golden education system that was practically guaranteed, at the time, to make you successful. So, in 1914, Cheyney University, the first black university, began offering degrees. Now opulent men and women were allowed in. In doesn't end there, though! In 1944, the G.I Bill was enacted, meaning higher education was now available to the opulent men, women, and the military. At this juncture, colleges were just letting everybody in to access their educational facility, which at the time was quite useful and had a real purpose (to create more educated and well-rounded citizens).

    Now, you may think people will change their opinions about school or at least think about your opinion once they realise they are being scammed. Well, let me explain this to you using colours. As you already know, in the English language pink and red are 2 different colours. English students grow up learning pink and red are 2 different colours and they will continue to believe pink and red are 2 different colours. However, in the Russian language, light blue and blue are 2 different colours. Russian students grow up learning light blue and blue are 2 different colour and they will continue to believe light blue and blue are 2 different colours. Now, try telling an English student that light blue and blue are 2 different colours and try telling a Russian student that pink and red are 2 different colours. You'll be met with the same, "No they're not, you're stupid! What school did you go to, because you obviously failed" response. In the case of school, people grow up learning that "school is the answer to everything and college is the only way to succeed in life", so they will continue to believe this for the rest of their lives, also called "indoctrination".


    Section 3: Modern Education
    Because of the history colleges have (giving people hope), people still cling onto college because it still gives them hope (watch The Hunger Games to see what I mean). College was around during a time when you couldn't just learn everything at a keyboard. You either went to college, took on an apprenticeship, learnt from a library, or worked at a dead-end job.

    Section 4: High school
    You see, when you are in high school, what you are actually doing there is competing in a social competition, not learning. Sure, you do learn a bit about arithmetic and you may learn basic English skills, but this isn't important. What is important, however, are the social connections you develop and how well you can please your teacher (this doesn't translate to fellatio) to further develop those social connections. High school is a time for you to learn social skills and increase your chances of getting into a university.


    Section 5: How Grades Works
    You see, being autistic I never developed social skills. This has led me to focus my attention on how people operate in an endeavour to simulate social skills. One thing I've noticed with school is that your grades are completely dependant on your teachers and how much they like you as a student, not how much you learn or how "smart" you are. Many people, especially students, forget that their teachers are people. People are bias and people are prone to error, which means teachers are bias and prone to error. I've had well over 100 teachers throughout my years in school (I had moved around a lot), and out of all of those teachers, only 3 ever cared about each students. As for the rest of the teachers, they selected "the best and brightest" students (which always vary between teachers as the "best and brightest" is an opinion) and helped them pass their classes (usually by inflating their grades, offering them make-up assignments, and in a few cases, in exchange for sexual contact). This, of course, does not apply to every school, but it does apply to the majority of schools.


    Section 6: Differences between College and High School
    Now, college is slightly different. Most college "students" are not there to get a better education, they are there for a degree to get a better job (the purpose of trade schools and apprenticeships). Despite what some people may tell you, many college students are learning averse. This is because once a neurotypical reaches puberty, they no longer live life to learn, they live life for pleasure. Things such as a better job and a college degree translates to a better partner (plural for the serial-monogamous), which means more pleasure. This is why you see so many nursing, doctoral, and dental students; these careers translate into a more respected (not necessarily better) career which gives them pleasure.


    Section 7: Standards
    The first time I went to college when I was 16, I also thought it was a waste of time like so many other people. "These are just glorified high school classes", I said. Unfortunately, I fell ill so I had to drop all of my classes. At the age of 19, when I enrolled in another university, I thought to myself, "These are just glorified high school classes", and left again. Like a driving exam, the standards for schools and colleges have been lowered so much that every student attending school is capable of graduating (see NEA even though it doesn't apply to colleges, but it might as well) for reasons stated in section 1.


    Section 8: Exceptions
    Remember when I said most schools are just a part of a social game? Well, not every school system is a waste of time. Schools that focus on one particular career (mortuary school, medical school, dental school, etcetera) are quite useful and are imperative to the success of the people in those careers (and no, you don't need college to get into every medical school). Without those schools, we would have people in careers that require a high level of expertise and precision learning from YouTube. Honestly, would you want an autodidactic doctor who learnt how to perform a heart surgery from YouTube? I sure wouldn't!


    Section 9: Conclusion and Your Place In The School System

    Your place in the school system is to either be in it or away from it.


    If you're in it, don't treat it likes it's a holy place where you have to preach about how great it is to everyone. As an Internet marketer you should know that you are just doing their marketing for them by encouraging everyone to go get accredited. If you're not in school, don't tell everyone not to go. Not everyone has the drive to be successful without college and not everyone is autodidactic.

    Section 10: Your Turn
    Now it's your turn; what problems do you see in the current education system and how do you think they can be improved (this is not asking you to criticise another person's post).

    Bonus Section: Responses To Posts That I Don't Want To See


    Post: Well, this is just your opinion.
    Response: Shut up and read the whole post.

    Post: Most of the points you make in here are invalid and do not apply to the current education system and...
    Response: Shut up and read the whole post.

    Post: I think college is good because...
    Response: I don't care if you think college is good, that was not the purpose of this post. Read Section 10.

    Post: Right on man, college sucks bro and...
    Response: I don't care if you think college sucks, that was not the purpose of this post. Read Section 10. No, read the whole post again.


    Post: Section 11...
    Response: There is no "Section 11".

    Post: This doesn't apply to the rest of us because we don't have autism
    Response: Read. The. Entire. Post. That was not the point.


    Post: My school is better than your school
    Response: I don't care.

    Post: You just went to the wrong school dude. You need to just keep trying until you get the right school.
    Response: I went to about 20 different schools in 3 different states. Don't tell me what to do.

    Post: Everyone needs an education because education is vital to the success of our economy and you don't know that because...
    Response: Read section 2 and 3.

    Post: I'm in college
    Response: Who cares?

    Post: Yeah man, I know where you're coming from, bro.
    Response: No you don't.

    Post: Grades don't work like that! I worked hard for my 4.0 GPA that I got for 12 years straight! I'm currently a college student and I know more than you because a piece of paper says I do! You just don't know the meaning of hard work...
    Response: Read section 1 again where I say most schools are like this and not all of them. No amount of education will ever help someone with abysmal reading comprehension like this.

    Post: But Brah...!
    Response: Get out of here.

    Post: Dude, I know what you mean. I know someone who didn't go to college and now he's making 6 figures a year and is dating a model, and, and, and
    Response: I don't care about fictitious success stories. I only care about my success story.

    Post: You're tired of seeing threads about education, yet you posted one?
    Response: The purpose of this thread is to encourage a conversation, not an argument like the other threads turn into.


    Post: (Repost of any of these example posts)
    Response: How original!


    I'm not going to babysit this post forever. Like a deist god, I just created this to set things in motion and watch what happens. So go ahead, post.
    :D
     
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    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
  2. LostConnection

    LostConnection Senior Member

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    I'm from Finland, and I could even criticize some of the features of our school system, but I think the one thing Finnish schools are doing better when the students are relatively young, is ease the students into the workload. In Finland, a high school student gets as much homework as a 5th grader in the US (in some cases at least, and this is a bit of a hyperbole).

    I prefer the idea of easing one into the amount of work. Step by step.

    Now, studying in a UK university, and so far so good.
     
  3. Riverstix

    Riverstix Junior Member

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    I dropped out of college in my first two weeks because I too thought "These are just glorified high school classes". Like you mentioned I was more focused on living for pleasure at the time by partying and learning who I was as a person.

    I am now living my dream running my own company and setting my own hours without a bunch of student loans and much to the thanks of my learning experience here on BHW. The time I spent working my way up in corporate America instead of going to college I think has better prepared me for learning how to treat my clients and interacting professionally with people.
     
  4. Zwielicht

    Zwielicht Moderator in Training Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    If it weren't for owning a business, I wouldn't even know how to interact with clients professionally. I can honestly say I learnt more from my business in 6 months than I have in 6 years as part of the standard school system. I didn't even know how to pay taxes correctly by the time I got out of high school! :D
     
  5. Trepanated

    Trepanated Supreme Member

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    If you want to see whether an education system has value, all you need is 2 lists:

    List 1 - Countries of the world in order of GDP/Freedoms/Happiness/Average income/Employment levels/Lifespan (just choose any single one of them)

    List 2 - Countries of the world in order of how good their education system is.

    You will find a close correlation between the two.

    Education is not only important, it's essential - and in countries where it's difficult to get an education you will find that the dream of almost every child is to get an education.

    Saying the system is there to create corporate slaves is ridiculous - nobody is forced to go to University, or told what courses they take, or told how hard to study, or pushed into a specific job/career/business/vocation when they get their degrees. At every step of the way there is personal choice involved.

    It's funny how the people who lambast the education system don't have a problem with the stage of it that taught them to read and write - they don't bang on about how being literate is the government's way of controlling them and slotting them into mundane jobs to keep the system running smoothly. No, they ignore the stage they have made use of and want to destroy the stage they personally have no further use for.

    But they are happy to drive cars, on roads, into towns and cities and buy goods and call friends on their phones and meet them and drink beers and eat in restaurants and fly on holidays on planes and live in houses, with electricity and gas and TV - all of which were given to them by the education system and are continually being maintained and advanced as a direct result of the education system.

    They are perfectly happy to use what the education system provides, every second of their lives - but they shout and scream that we don't need it.

    Ironically, it's not a very educated thought process.
     
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  6. jazzc

    jazzc Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    Correlation and causation are 2 different things, first thing anyone involved in Statistics learns.

    If you want to see how water consumption is the cause of fatal car accidents, just check how many drivers involved had consumed water in the last 8 hours before the crash.
     
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  7. Trepanated

    Trepanated Supreme Member

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    Did I say they were the same thing?
     
  8. jazzc

    jazzc Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    Btw, learning to read and write shouldn't take 16 years to accomplish :)
     
  9. jazzc

    jazzc Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    Yes, read the 4 first lines of your post :)
     
  10. Trepanated

    Trepanated Supreme Member

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    No, I never mentioned causation at all. I mentioned correlation.

    I am well aware that correlation and causation are different - it's something I point out regularly.

    But just because they are separate things, that doesn't mean that correlation is never an indication that two sets of data are interrelated.

    Charts of people who eat too much and people who are overweight would be closely correlated - and in that instance, one is a causative factor for the other.

    The difference is knowing how to differentiate between the two.

    In the case of education, are you saying that a better educated population is not a factor in a higher GDP, or higher average income, etc?

    Just to be clear, I am definitely saying that they are related :)
     
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  11. jazzc

    jazzc Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    Yes, that's exactly what it means. Correlation is NEVER an indication of causation just like color is not an indication of a car's speed. Totally orthogonal.

    So while you verbally say you don't confuse the two, you do. It's ok because it's a tricky thing to grasp and everyone gets it wrong but that's why I singled and pointed it out.

    Got to leave, will make a full response later :)
     
  12. IMerSince1997

    IMerSince1997 Newbie

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    The issue is that school and college is dependend on a small groups agenda.I had the luck being one of the last classes who had got a strong education.I was in the middle of the transformation in west europe.First of all people need to realize that childrens of workers were not educated well because stupid citizens can be easlier manipulated ,controlled and cheaten.There was a big rise in the 1960 because of the so called sputnic syndrom which forced western countries to activate all resources to gain back the diffrence to soviet union.Thats where children from working people got a well education.
    The agenda since 1990 stopped changed to lower heavily the quality of education.It started with reduction of money to schools ,less teachers etc .
    Another big part of school is indoctrination like OP wrote.Another thing which makes me personaly mad is that education is no more targeted to talents.What counts is numerous clausus which means who has the better average notes will get the education.There are people who are very talented in diffrent niches like medecine but wont get the education because the NC of other people are better because they are better in drawing,music or whatever but which has completly nothing to do with medicine.
    The next issue is control of knowledge.A great example is the rothschild foundation which was created in 1910 which said that only physical medicine is real medicine and each other is a scam.All universities had to accept that fact even they teached 4 diffrent kind of medecine before.What also happened is that the fee's for these education exploded and from before arround 10.000 (medicine students/70% normal houshold) it went down to arround 4.500 (medicine students/10% normal household) and that this was the beginning of control of public medicine.
    I got a book back from 1897 and when reading it how easy it is sometimes to create a cure and how much farma is charging for it it just makes me mad ,when seeing all the sick people who are unable to help themself as the knowledge was taken slowly away from the public
     
  13. Trepanated

    Trepanated Supreme Member

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    Again, I did not say correlation is an indicator of causation.

    I said correlation can be an indicator that two sets of data are interrelated

    You keep telling me I am saying something I am not saying
     
  14. richardleb

    richardleb Power Member

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    This very very interesting. My compliments!
     
  15. Neocortx

    Neocortx Regular Member

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    Hey,

    I don't want to sound like a buzzkill... but all those discussions are entirely worthless, because they're based on your personal experiences and NOT scientific research. Personal experiences are absolutely unreliable when it comes to such topics. To be honest, the current education system isn't really aligned to scientific research when it comes to learning, and way too much is still based on the notion of having free will (which is - from a psychological and neurological standpoint - not even remotely possible).

    However, I don't claim to know which would be the best way for a school system, but a start would be to stop acting like it's the kids responsibility to get motivated. This is again based on the delusional notion of free will. Rather, we should try to incorporate systems that increase the motivation and passion people have for science. I know that going to school made me hate the topics, because I never really understood the value of what I've learned. It was just later, as I learned more from open resources, that I started to understand how awesome science can be! Now I'm learning just to have fun (yep, that's a thing :p)

    warm regards,
    neocortx
     
  16. Zwielicht

    Zwielicht Moderator in Training Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    These are excellent points, Trepanated! This is the kind of discussion I was looking for.

    Green: I agree, education is essential! I've seen videos of children from 3rd world countries say that the only thing they want is to be given access to a good education; a chance. They believe that countries, such as the United States, offers superior education, which in this case it does if their country lacks a decent education system.

    Yellow: Many people forget that there are alternatives to traditional education if they don't like the current system. They can be home-schooled (I knew a girl who did this and when they attended a traditional school their senior year, they excelled in every course), go to school online (I've done this one and I actually liked it better than traditional school. Even the teachers were nicer!), get into special education if they need it and they can get in (I've done this also when I was in the GATE program, but this doesn't mean remedial education like so many people think. Special education also applies to the gifted and talented program , also known as GATE), get a private tutor (this is costly, although I've seem wealthy people who haven't considered this option. So in a way, you are "forced" to get an education when you are younger, although you have so many alternatives that these people shouldn't complain.:)

    In the case of being forced to go to a university, this may be true for some people. There are some people who have relatives that will become belligerent and harm their own relatives if they do anything that deviates away from going to a university. I've even had people take advantage of the fact that they can overload my senses and send me to the hospital (how pathetic of them) just to dissuade me from starting a business. Although for most people, it isn't this bad, but there are other people out there who cannot handle this and eventually go to college with no real purpose.

    Red: I know what you mean. I had always imagined that these are the same people on government assistance who say that the government is trying to keep them down, as if the government wants to pay for them. :D

    At the same time, there are people, who did not learn from the current education system, who have a problem with it. Remember the girl I mentioned who was home-schooled for most of her life? Well, when she finally attended a traditional school, she had a huge problem with it. She had always wanted to see what a traditional education was like, but she was disappointed because she felt that she had received a better education at home. This also applies to me, too. Many people believe that everything I know came from a traditional school (I like to consider myself autodidactic). While I can't say I didn't learn anything at a traditional school (you can learn something from anywhere, even if it's not what you were expecting to learn), I certainly didn't get the majority of my knowledge from traditional school (although much of what I know about people did come from the setting, and that has helped me out tremendously). Yet, even when I tell people this, they ignore it and just say "the school system has succeeded in creating a smart individual".

    Pink: This sounds like the typical behaviour of people in general; they're just unappreciative and they can never have enough.
    • Give them Internet, and they want faster Internet. If they don't get it, they'll say their ISP is ripping them off.
    • Give them a decent car, and they want a faster car. If they don't get a faster car, they'll blame technology or the motor companies.
    • Give them a good friend, and they want a better friend. If they don't get a better friend, they'll complain about how they don't have anyone to talk to (I see adults doing this just as much as children).
    • Give them a good partner (husband/wife), and they want a better partner. If they don't get one, they'll cheat and then blame their old partner for not "satisfying them".
    People complain about everything and it will not cease until everything is "perfect" (in other words, never).
     
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  17. Trepanated

    Trepanated Supreme Member

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    I was going to finish writing this sentence, but I chose n...
     
  18. Zwielicht

    Zwielicht Moderator in Training Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Your first paragraph is related to the following in the bonus section of posts that I don't want to see because it makes it seem as if you didn't read the original post and completely ignores the topic of discussion (which I have posted for the second time in this post below):
    Of course this is based on my experience and not "scientific research" (although sections 2 and 3 at least go over history a bit). The whole point of that post was my experience with the education system and the problems I see in the current education system, and the topic of this thread is "What problems do you see in the current education system and how do you think they can be improved". My original post goes over problems (not solutions) and gives everyone a chance to post the problems they see and possible solutions without having to deal with this:
    [​IMG]

    I understand where you're going with increasing motivation and the purported passion people have for science, but at the same time it seems a bit superfluous to me. People don't love science and you can see that on the ironic Facebook page "I Fucking Love Science". Read this article by Maddox about that page to see what I mean.
     
  19. Neocortx

    Neocortx Regular Member

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    No, my argument triggered your supposed "decision".

    Nobody really makes a decision. Just think for a moment about following:

    What are the decisions, that supposedly come from you, actually based on?

    As an example:

    Lets assume we're in some jungle, talking to a native there. It's save to say that he probably has no TV and/or other forms of media, neither does he have a system based on money (I'm talking about hunter & gatherer societies). Now, if you let him "choose" between a $500 note and a bunch of fruits... he will choose the fruits. Of course, the $500 could buy MUCH more food. But he does not know it. He doesn't know the value of money, therefor it's irrational for him to choose it. Is his decision really originating from him? Suppose you tell him before that he can buy MUCH more food with the $500, and you show him how (for the sake of the example, lets say there is a way for him to actually spend it :p). Of course, once he knows it, he'll decide for the money... because it is logical for his frame of reference, based on the newly received information.

    My point being, our decisions do not originate from ourselfs, but from environmental influences.

    However, I honestly suck at explaining it, so here's a nice video from neuroscientist Sam Harris:


    The more you dig into psychology and neurology, and once you actually try to exactly define free will and compare the evidence with the concept of it, you'll see that it is in fact, absolutely impossible to be true.

    warm regards,
    neocortx
     
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  20. Zwielicht

    Zwielicht Moderator in Training Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    I can tell you're interested in science because of your name (neocortex). :D

    Now, here's something I'm wondering: if the jungle native is hungry, wouldn't the decision to eat come from himself? I understand the decision of what to eat and how to procure it coming from his environment, but what about the decision to eat (In this case, I am not referring to the need to eat where someone is feeling hungry so they need sustenance, I'm talking about the "decision" to eat that many gorge-eaters and food enthusiasts make because they like the taste). Or are the body and the brain that trigger these responses considered part of the environment as well?

    By the way, this is digressing from the main topic a bit.
     
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