Shitlist Suggestion

I saw people yelling (requesting) their BTC money back under shitlists

I saw marketplace sellers and other Vips scamming huge amounts and not getting banned shortly

I saw hope in scammed members


Many scammers are working 'smart' and they obviously can afford the things you are looking for

They can supply you long term, updates often break nobody, because various BST's (services) are all around

The key is gathering customer's trust, by providing the actual service, for a short period or at least one time


From there (trust zone) it becomes way easier to do a mass scam within tiny time-frame

So, they leave multiple contacts, telegrams, skypes, shits, there's a good reason for doing it

World is full of people using different devices and communication methods


Not every BHW member or visitor is smart enough to know that dealing via PM only is the most important thing when doing BHW business

Not every BHW member or visitor is smart enough to know that mod has posted or locked someone's BST due ongoing shitlist (etc profile links)


Here is the short list of my suggestions:


1) BST should be removed entirely, with a custom message, like 404 page is, explaining what's going on in general
- Who's the thread owner, what he was selling, with the link to Shitlist (so, fully informative)

Example:

Custom page text-image that explains the page
(This BST thread has been temporarily removed due ongoing Shitlist against the seller)

Thread Owner: @tag
BST Subject: Google Method $100k/day for $50 only today
Shitlist URL: bhw.com/url

2) Profile of the seller should be 301 redirected to page 1), so nobody can contact anyhow the seller, neither hover his username for options, neither see anything from @user profile
(this is very important, to block every single possible way for a newbie to see any form of contact and reach to that seller)

-Seller must be fully isolated from any communication form outside of replying to threads.



Benefits?

1) Sellers who are 'legit' will be more responsive to all kinds of messages

-Someone might say: Man they shitlist me for $5 because they used outdated SMM service and now my BST is temp banned due $5? Really?
Answer: How then many SMM sellers never ever had a shitlist against them?
Answer: Just refund $5 back to the client pocket, not your panel, post proof to SL, wait a reasonable 24-48h max period (in case seller decides not to log in and confirm refund)
= ban lifting asap (manually by mod ofc) Yeah, it's not easy when you refuse to communicate back to unhappy customers on time!
Conclusion: Market filtering, value stands.


2) Newbies and/or new visitors would feel more encouraged to step into the marketplace and do some business with sellers around
(they would note the things described above, that's for sure)

The issue with this is if the seller is not at fault, then they are deprived of sales for something they are not responsible for.

So as an example if the seller has Skypename; IloveBHW ( I love with capital i ) but a scammer has a Skype with lloveBHW ( all lower case Ls ) and a careless buyer does the deal through Skype and gets scammed, then the genuine seller is being penalised for something they were not aware of.

MisterF said:

The issue with this is if the seller is not at fault, then they are deprived of sales for something they are not responsible for.

So as an example if the seller has Skypename; IloveBHW ( I love with capital i ) but a scammer has a Skype with lloveBHW ( all lower case Ls ) and a careless buyer does the deal through Skype and gets scammed, then the genuine seller is being penalised for something they were not aware of.

Click to expand...

Quite interesting example,

Mod would have to ask for a screen share of the seller skype before SL goes live or temp account access.


To make things more fair, this could be added:

If conversation was started by careless buyer outside of forum, then: seller has 48h to become aware of this case (same as responding to SL)

So, seller's BST would work normally for the next 48 hours since SL goes live, while mod could send a PM day or two before SL is live, so that's very fair.

(PM before going live could be optional, goodwill of mods, since you guys know who's who)


I am more than sure that sellers do this on purpose (what you described as an example) and they try to scam, while being clean with their accounts and BST's

BbHhWwVM said:

Quite interesting example,

Mod would have to ask for a screen share of the seller skype before SL goes live or temp account access.


To make things more fair, this could be added:

If conversation was started by careless buyer outside of forum, then: seller has 48h to become aware of this case (same as responding to SL)

So, seller's BST would work normally for the next 48 hours since SL goes live, while mod could send a PM day or two before SL is live, so that's very fair.

(PM before going live could be optional, goodwill of mods, since you guys know who's who)


I am more than sure that sellers do this on purpose (what you described as an example) and they try to scam, while being clean with their accounts and BST's

Click to expand...

Mods: More time spent on SL threads. Less time for personal life.
Sellers: More time spent on SL threads. Less time for personal life. Their sales will be impacted as well.
Buyers: More hassle, because of potential unavailability of sales threads, all of a sudden. If they are buying on behalf of clients, they also will be impacted.

Chances of competing sellers exploiting this: High enough, to be of concern.

reuse said:

Mods: More time spent on SL threads. Less time for personal life.
Sellers: More time spent on SL threads. Less time for personal life. Their sales will be impacted as well.
Buyers: More hassle, because of potential unavailability of sales threads, all of a sudden. If they are buying on behalf of clients, they also will be impacted.

Chances of competing sellers exploiting this: High enough, to be of concern.

Click to expand...

"Mods: More time spent on SL threads. Less time for personal life. "
- If you want to improve anything in your life, yes, you will have to spend some time. Good note.
- But in this case, mods time will be reduced, as pressure will instantly affect the seller, because he already mess up.
- Further into details, SL procedure is normal, sellers are in 95% very guilty and they (sellers) will have to either refund / replace (buyers choice)
- This is something that every mod is very well aware of. Sellers will only be forced to act way faster as their BST is very dead and non visible to anybody.

"Sellers: More time spent on SL threads. Less time for personal life. Their sales will be impacted as well. "
- I've already explained this. Some sellers (at least around 70%) have no any SL issues, because their business rocks, and they already take care of everything.
- This means, they won't need to spend a single moment under any SL. Those who have issues are usually guilty, and SL is not immediately live/public.
- So, mod will (like usual) check SL, turn it live if there is a good reason for it, and things plays normally from there.
- Sellers can only spend less time, because they are again forced to reply / engage in conversation, and solve the issue.

"Buyers: More hassle, because of potential unavailability of sales threads, all of a sudden. If they are buying on behalf of clients, they also will be impacted."
- Not at all. There is no a single service offered at BHW, but a bunch of same offerings and services. Such situation cannot happen.
- What can happen, is buyers being more safe, and browsing BST's with value only. At least they will have more % of chance to stay safe and pleased.


"Chances of competing sellers exploiting this: High enough, to be of concern."
- There is no any competition in negative way. There can be only in positive, and that is to give what you offer and keep your clients happy.


I am more than happy to answer any further questions.

Why can't sellers just communicate through BHW inbox.
Seller who says to contact them on Skype should be banned anyway.

SamLewis said:

Why can't sellers just communicate through BHW inbox.
Seller who says to contact them on Skype should be banned anyway.

Click to expand...

It's a good point, but I believe BHW won't do such a huge limit.
Sellers will keep holding such rights, to drive the conversation or contact form off the forum.

Someone prefer to scam there, someone just use it for faster communication.

With my suggestion, I went as far as possible, while not damaging anybody rights at all.

So... guilty until proven innocent? Love that!

SamLewis said:

Why can't sellers just communicate through BHW inbox.
Seller who says to contact them on Skype should be banned anyway.

Click to expand...

A lot of buyers in HAF and WTB leave their outside details for contacting them ( I usually remove them if I see them ).

But it's so easy to contact someone on Skype and pretend to be a legit seller on here, do a bargain price for BTC then vanish.

SamLewis said:

Why can't sellers just communicate through BHW inbox.
Seller who says to contact them on Skype should be banned anyway.

Click to expand...

For a "one time" buy, it could be done via PM. However, there are services that take much more communication than just saying "delivered" or something. For example, web development. I don't think it makes any sense to do e.g. issue tracking via PM. It is slow and inefficient. Telegram/Skype/<put your chat sw name here> handle this much better (and some kind of issue tracker in conjunction). Same goes for some SEO services (probably, I do not sell SEO services here... can't tell for sure).

DunderMannen said:

So... guilty until proven innocent? Love that!

Click to expand...

Exactly but just a small detail about this statement

Keep in mind that most of SL's ends in buyer favor

This should help in motivating the seller to not be 20 days offline (not logged in) and / or banned later

To don't waste buyers time, seller should respond to the SL in timely manner. Simple.

SL Mod has full rights to give back live status to sellers BST before SL is ended, if from any reason (even trick) mod decides to do so.

BbHhWwVM said:

"Mods: More time spent on SL threads. Less time for personal life. "
- If you want to improve anything in your life, yes, you will have to spend some time. Good note.
- But in this case, mods time will be reduced, as pressure will instantly affect the seller, because he already mess up.
- Further into details, SL procedure is normal, sellers are in 95% very guilty and they (sellers) will have to either refund / replace (buyers choice)
- This is something that every mod is very well aware of. Sellers will only be forced to act way faster as their BST is very dead and non visible to

Click to expand...

You are hoping things will happen the way you wish for ("pressure affects the seller").

Currently, the mods reach a conclusion at the end of a careful process, after considering both parties' arguments.

By asking to remove their sales thread before the conclusion of the SL process, you are asking to skip all that, and to presume guilt. (By the way, that is the additional time)
And then, to continue with the SL as well.
Just because you think (if you gathered data, please feel free to correct me) 95% of sellers in that situation are guilty.

Innocent until proven guilty. That is how it usually works.

BbHhWwVM said:

"Sellers: More time spent on SL threads. Less time for personal life. Their sales will be impacted as well. "
- I've already explained this. Some sellers (at least around 70%) have no any SL issues, because their business rocks, and they already take care of everything.
- This means, they won't need to spend a single moment under any SL. Those who have issues are usually guilty, and SL is not immediately live/public.
- So, mod will (like usual) check SL, turn it live if there is a good reason for it, and things plays normally from there.
- Sellers can only spend less time, because they are again forced to reply / engage in conversation, and solve the issue.

Click to expand...

You are asking every seller to forgo revenue once someone files SL, until it is resolved. What if his competitors start filing one SL after another, thus ensuring his sales thread never comes up in public?

It is dangerous.

BbHhWwVM said:

"Buyers: More hassle, because of potential unavailability of sales threads, all of a sudden. If they are buying on behalf of clients, they also will be impacted."
- Not at all. There is no a single service offered at BHW, but a bunch of same offerings and services. Such situation cannot happen.
- What can happen, is buyers being more safe, and browsing BST's with value only. At least they will have more % of chance to stay safe and pleased.

Click to expand...

You are assuming the services are equal. They are not, from a buyer's perspective. If I like one writer, I want to buy from that person. Not from anyone offering writing services.

BbHhWwVM said:

"Chances of competing sellers exploiting this: High enough, to be of concern."
- There is no any competition in negative way. There can be only in positive, and that is to give what you offer and keep your clients happy.

Click to expand...

I already pointed out above how this can be abused.


I know you opened the thread with good intentions, but what you proposed affects most of those involved negatively.
Multiple people already pointed out the practical issues.

Also, profiles of banned members shouldn't be a 404 page - Rather there can be a link to the shitlist where we can see the reason for ban.

reuse said:

You are hoping things will happen the way you wish for ("pressure affects the seller").

Currently, the mods reach a conclusion at the end of a careful process, after considering both parties' arguments.

By asking to remove their sales thread before the conclusion of the SL process, you are asking to skip all that, and to presume guilt. (By the way, that is the additional time)
And then, to continue with the SL as well.
Just because you think (if you gathered data, please feel free to correct me) 95% of sellers in that situation are guilty.

Innocent until proven guilty. That is how it usually works.

Click to expand...

I don't hope, simply, sellers will be forced to interact, not to hold and come up with excuses days after.

If the buyer holds a strong argument, seller must defend with equal or stronger, in a timely manner. Everything else is high risk.

I agree, but mods do know what's the end scenario faster then you think, but they can't work fast enough, because seller is taking to much time to reply.

This happens because most of the sellers ends up in SL will use all 'weapons' to hold and catch more fish, if you understand what I mean.

Seller will know what's going on from the start, so they won't have the excuse to reply. If they are clean, BST will be up in less than hours sometimes.

Even before SL is over, if mod sees the seller is trying to settle things (cooperating) BST can go live way faster before SL ends.

Some sellers never ends in SL....................

I can't claim exact % but it's very high trust me, I watch that section for like 2 years, and am very aware of outcomes, deleted SL's etc, and that's mostly what's going on. You have a bunch of scams and refunds (that's good)

You can't go with innocent until proven guilty because this pattern is highly abused. If you can't go 1 step ahead and see what my change is doing, then forget it.

reuse said:

You are asking every seller to forgo revenue once someone files SL, until it is resolved. What if his competitors start filing one SL after another, thus ensuring his sales thread never comes up in public?

It is dangerous.

Click to expand...

It's nothing dangerous nor negative, because you can't say that seller is not providing a working model, you'll have to proof that.

Example: SL against seller is live and his BST closed. Nobody enters to say he also have the issues with a seller, maybe even 2-3 alt accounts of the competitor

Buyers can't just say this is not working, I want a refund. They have to provide details, else you can go and scam any seller right? No need competition

I can go buy for $500 today and say refund me tomorrow and keep the goods? Things aren't gonna work like that. So keep that in mind.

As a competitor you could stop the seller one time, that's nothing. Every new attempt wouldn't close sellers BST as mod would know that seller is legit (at least legit for now, so no damage)

reuse said:

You are assuming the services are equal. They are not, from a buyer's perspective. If I like one writer, I want to buy from that person. Not from anyone offering writing services.




I already pointed out above how this can be abused.

Click to expand...

I assumed nothing. All services contain value, and if you want to go with your favorite seller, but have no any contact form, other then BHW contact, while he is under SL, you can reach him by sending a PM to your last conversation with him, simple. You had to have one previously.

This can't be abused more than it is right now, can only be less. It's funny, because you are trying to find holes in my idea, but not watching the system that BHW operates on right now when it comes to SL's. People simply do scams, never log in, and keep scamming in the meanwhile, but fuck that

reuse said:

I know you opened the thread with good intentions, but what you proposed affects most of those involved negatively.
Multiple people already pointed out the practical issues.

Click to expand...

I can't see multiple people pointing issues. Thank you, I did opened this thread to drop some light.

It's like always, up to staff to consider and use or reject this one. God Bless

ridersark said:

Also, profiles of banned members shouldn't be a 404 page - Rather there can be a link to the shitlist where we can see the reason for ban.

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Yes, this is something I never covered before. After the seller is banned, everything should be normal, like with any other banned member.

So, like any other banned member, no 301 redirect or anything like that.

About ban reason, BHW never offer such info due better tracking of bad guys, so you can't expect to have any info about banned member.


But their BST's should be entirely removed or keep the status from my OP, like 404 page with a link to SL and their @username (BST owner)

This means, if someone has their BST bookmarked or something, they will visit a custom page that contains the link to a SL and has a @username of BST owner.

If you click on @username you will end up watching what you see for each and every banned member on BHW. That's it.




(sorry for mistakes and my english, it's not english)

BbHhWwVM said:

If the buyer holds a strong argument, seller must defend with equal or stronger, in a timely manner. Everything else is high risk.

Click to expand...

That happens through the SL process. That is where both parties can present their arguments. Anything bypassing that process is not fair

BbHhWwVM said:

I can't claim exact % but it's very high trust me, I watch that section for like 2 years, and am very aware of outcomes, deleted SL's etc, and that's mostly what's going on. You have a bunch of scams and refunds (that's good)

Click to expand...

I can claim the same as well
My point is: without data, it is just conjecture.

BbHhWwVM said:

It's nothing dangerous nor negative, because you can't say that seller is not providing a working model, you'll have to proof that.

Click to expand...

I am repeating the same point again and again, but: They prove it through the SL process. You are asking to bypass that and assume guilt.

BbHhWwVM said:

As a competitor you could stop the seller one time, that's nothing. Every new attempt wouldn't close sellers BST as mod would know that seller is legit (at least legit for now, so no damage)

Click to expand...

Mods usually won't know until the SL process reaches its conclusion. If they know someone is problematic, they usually take more "extreme" steps. You can see that in the SL forum already.

BbHhWwVM said:

I assumed nothing. All services contain value, and if you want to go with your favorite seller, but have no any contact form, other then BHW contact, while he is under SL, you can reach him by sending a PM to your last conversation with him, simple. You had to have one previously.

Click to expand...

You did assume that the services are all equal, when you said this: "There is no a single service offered at BHW, but a bunch of same offerings and services. ".
Also, now you made the assumption that a buyer is always a repeat buyer, whereas many a time, it will be a first time buyer who'd be involved in this scenario.

BbHhWwVM said:

It's funny, because you are trying to find holes in my idea, but not watching the system that BHW operates on right now when it comes to SL's.

Click to expand...

Again, you are assuming that I am not watching the system. I watch the SL forum the most - otherwise I won't have replied here, because I knew this will not end in one reply, and that at some point, we will keep going in circles

BbHhWwVM said:

I can't see multiple people pointing issues. Thank you, I did opened this thread to drop some light.

Click to expand...

I am assuming you meant "I can see multiple people pointing issues" because at least two people, other than me, have pointed out the issues inherent in this.


===========START=============

Issue #1: Not at fault seller

MisterF said:

The issue with this is if the seller is not at fault, then they are deprived of sales for something they are not responsible for.



So as an example if the seller has Skypename; IloveBHW ( I love with capital i ) but a scammer has a Skype with lloveBHW ( all lower case Ls ) and a careless buyer does the deal through Skype and gets scammed, then the genuine seller is being penalised for something they were not aware of.

Click to expand...

Issue #2: Presumption of guilt without due process

DunderMannen said:

So... guilty until proven innocent? Love that!

Click to expand...

===========END=============


I checked your other threads, so I know you are just trying to make the system better. But there are better ways than this.

With that, I am out, because I think we have reached the point where we are repeating at least some of the same points

reuse said:

That happens through the SL process. That is where both parties can present their arguments. Anything bypassing that process is not fair




I can claim the same as well
My point is: without data, it is just conjecture.




I am repeating the same point again and again, but: They prove it through the SL process. You are asking to bypass that and assume guilt.




Mods usually won't know until the SL process reaches its conclusion. If they know someone is problematic, they usually take more "extreme" steps. You can see that in the SL forum already.




You did assume that the services are all equal, when you said this: "There is no a single service offered at BHW, but a bunch of same offerings and services. ".
Also, now you made the assumption that a buyer is always a repeat buyer, whereas many a time, it will be a first time buyer who'd be involved in this scenario.




Again, you are assuming that I am not watching the system. I watch the SL forum the most - otherwise I won't have replied here, because I knew this will not end in one reply, and that at some point, we will keep going in circles




I am assuming you meant "I can see multiple people pointing issues" because at least two people, other than me, have pointed out the issues inherent in this.


===========START=============

Issue #1: Not at fault seller




Issue #2: Presumption of guilt without due process




===========END=============


I checked your other threads, so I know you are just trying to make the system better. But there are better ways than this.

With that, I am out, because I think we have reached the point where we are repeating at least some of the same points

Click to expand...

It's not easy to form the best method from the start, but specially for you, all cases scenarios:


1) Wrong Seller Accused

SL has been created, mod has checked and now mod is alerting the seller via PM (day 1)

Mod has checked the seller shortly and saw nothing bad about the seller

Seller was away since 5 days (reason unknown)

SL goes live (day 3) Seller BST is blocked (48 hours no response from the seller to mod pm)

Seller is legit, but away, so he is paying the price of not moderating his BST on BHW (FAIR)

This also helps the seller, because seller can post EXACT URL Links on his BST to his Contacts, so this can't happen, if the seller CARES!

Seller is back (day 4) and he is sorting things out with the mod, explaining he was away (BST back Live)

SL is still in the process, buyer realizing he got scammed by a duplicated contact or whatever, but BST is back live due 100% valid argument



2) Wrong Seller Accused (part 2)

Seller has responded to mod PM and now SL is not going live at all, because the seller sorted things out on time.

No issues, no BST locked-blocked



3) Competition is the Buyer

One or more of competition alt/bot accounts bought some service and now there are 5 reports against the seller

Seller is active/responsible to messages and not blind, so he saw and replied to mod PM

Let's say that SL goes live and mods are not able to find the issue right away.

That seller will suffer 1 time only, in a minimum time-frame of being attacked by competition.

I won't write more 10 lines about this one, mods will simply find out what's going on.

That same seller cannot be attacked never again, because if competition try, mods will defend the seller this time.

His BST won't go offline even if there is another SL against the same seller.

That is the right way of operating.

I can't buy for $500 today and ask refund tomorrow, try to ban the seller, things won't work like that.

Even if things are like this, my idea has nothing to do with it. It is enough to SL someone to drop his visual REP, no need even to lock his BST



THE KEY OF MY IDEA IS REDUCING DELAYS IN COMMUNICATION, NOTHING HAS TO BE PERMANENT
BST CAN BE 247 LIVE IF MOD DECIDES BUT CHAT ACTIVITY MUST BE MUTUAL
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I have no time to go forward with options, but:

This is the best possible way to operate SL, and I am more than sure in it.

For any active seller, this is a joke, and no reason to worry. Even if they are active but not in the SL period, so what?

They won't lose much, maybe 2 days max of their BST being removed, but just because they were away.

Keep in mind that this only happens when the 'attack' was planned + seller away + seller has no direct links to skype etc in his BST



Mods are locking some BST's, but that's not enough, they have to restrict the seller properly, once DD approves this.



So, this 2 examples you highlighted are irrelevant. If this is not good enough, duh, do not quote me anymore pls

I'm responding to this since it never received a closure notice back when it was posted.

@MisterF highlighted the issues surrounding this, so it won't be implemented at this time.

MisterF said:

The issue with this is if the seller is not at fault, then they are deprived of sales for something they are not responsible for.

So as an example if the seller has Skypename; IloveBHW ( I love with capital i ) but a scammer has a Skype with lloveBHW ( all lower case Ls ) and a careless buyer does the deal through Skype and gets scammed, then the genuine seller is being penalised for something they were not aware of.

Click to expand...