Magic, illusion or SCIENCE?

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What part exactly sounds arrogant? The fact that I don't agree to your labelling of me or the fact that I am learned? :)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, likewise the view point of each individual. Whatever one says you've already got an answer/opinion so in the end it doesn't really matter. :)

In regards to "exactly" I recommend:

 
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To provoke further discussion, I'd like to ask; why do you think none of those occurrences exist? I, for one, have experienced at least one of the described phenomena.

I'm not saying "magic" exists, but do keep an open mind. You may be learned, but you certainly cannot think you know and have experienced everything the world and life has to offer. I am sure there will come a time in your life where you do experience something that you or science cannot explain.

This comment isn't to be argumentative, but to provoke you to consider an alternative perspective. I could provide you with an anecdotal experience, but I don't think it would be of much benefit at this stage.


Well, I don't think any of these exist, but for the sake of argument, let 's suppose they do. Exactly how did you come in the conclusion that science can't explain them? We couldn't fly a hundreen years ago, now we land on Mars. Did we do it with a magic broom?
 
@jazzc: Actually science cannot explains lot of things like the monks in the mountains of Himalaya who can increase the temperature of their body and can even dry a wet cloth just with the heat of their body. Can science explain how they do it?
 
To provoke further discussion, I'd like to ask; why do you think none of those occurrences exist? I, for one, have experienced at least one of the described phenomena.

Because there is (to my knowledge) no proper investigation of the issues that verifies it. Let me give you an example - in my experience, I 'd say "bad eye" exists. Do I believe it exists? Not before some serious testing takes place. My experience is not sufficient evidence to acquire knowledge. You see, in controled experiments, you can eliminate lots and lots of other possibilities. If more than a few people do such controlled experiments and they come to the same conclusion, then there 's a basis where I can say "yes, it probably exists".

I'm not saying "magic" exists, but do keep an open mind.

I agree. It depends on how you define magic. If the definition is "something we can't currently tell how it works", of course, magic exists. If the definition is "something we lack the mental power to understand how it work", I will require proof for that :)

You may be learned,

Don't take that seriously, I was teasing ShadeDream :) I am very interested in education and knowledge but it 's not my main activity.

but you certainly cannot think you know and have experienced everything the world and life has to offer.

Of course, I did not claim to. I only ask for proof that conform to the scientific method, before I believe something, that 's all.

I am sure there will come a time in your life where you do experience something that you or science cannot explain.

It has. But that 's not an excuse for me to believe that it is something unexplainable, just because I currently lack on the explanation.

This comment isn't to be argumentative, but to provoke you to consider an alternative perspective.

Thank you.
 
@jazzc: Actually science cannot explains lot of things like the monks in the mountains of Himalaya who can increase the temperature of their body and can even dry a wet cloth just with the heat of their body. Can science explain how they do it?

I 'll answer similarly. Why do you think science isn't equipped or won't be equipped in the future with enough mental capacity to explain it?
 
Its true. Everything is explainable by science - as science is just describing the process behind things.

I don't know about that. I'd love to hear the scientific explanation for the time that a dead person came to me in a dream (old friend of the family), and everything she told me happened the next day, including her best friend dying.
 
I 'll answer similarly. Why do you think science isn't equipped or won't be equipped in the future with enough mental capacity to explain it?

I was just saying that currently science cannot explain this. I can't say anything about the future. Maybe science will be able to explain it in the future or maybe not.
 
I agree. It depends on how you define magic. If the definition is "something we can't currently tell how it works", of course, magic exists. If the definition is "something we lack the mental power to understand how it work", I will require proof for that :)

Sufficient response. Good discussion. Will be reading further as the replies progress!
 
There is no clear distinction between philosophy and science. Gradations lads. :frog:

 
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I recommending to watch documentary Quantum activist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azYJnsXNzPM

5th Dimension - Mind over Matter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jgMzcRxxEE

Or find some books about transpersonal psychology, here is a documentary Stanislav Grof - Science of the Soul: the Story of Transpersonal Psychology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob-sGsd05ss
 
I do believe in magic. These card tricks, disappearing things is not the only magic. Magic is something beyond explanation.

For example has anyone heard of the person named Chris Angel? Back in 2009 I used to watch his Mind freak show. Just tell me one thing,
How a person(chris angel) can walk on water or fly 2-4 feet above the ground when everyone move their hands underneath him to see if he is standing on a support but there is nothing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtbKYJ5MVrw&noredirect=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBQLq2VmZcA&noredirect=1
 
I do believe in magic. These card tricks, disappearing things is not the only magic. Magic is something beyond explanation.

For example has anyone heard of the person named Chris Angel? Back in 2009 I used to watch his Mind freak show. Just tell me one thing,
How a person(chris angel) can walk on water or fly 2-4 feet above the ground when everyone move their hands underneath him to see if he is standing on a support but there is nothing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtbKYJ5MVrw&noredirect=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBQLq2VmZcA&noredirect=1

Chris Angel is only actor.

Here is how he do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dycpIPTFJ04
 
If you placing science on one side and paranormal things on another side you're setting yourself up for failure. Paranormal means it's unexplained by a certain person's (or group of person's) current understanding. It does not necessarily mean it defies science. Also, it may defy science either apparently or for real and then it means the science part has to be revised. However, mentally placing these 2 concepts in opposing camps sets you for failure in understanding any of them properly because you must mentally pick sides - either science or paranormal.

Simply because something is believed by most people to be true, doesn't make that thing true. Simply because something is believed by most people to be impossible, doesn't make that thing impossible. Repeating something untrue/fake enough will trick most lesser minds into accepting it as true. This works both for paranormal stuff and for scientific stuff. Also, accepting something as being true in an absolute manner will mentally program you to block out any sign or evidence that you might stumble onto and not even consider it, because you already think you know how things are and aren't and will not accept new input that messes up your established perception of things.

Another thing worth noting is that science requires experiments to be repeatable in a controlled environment over and over again by any person. When you demand that you demand the impossible. It is like demanding from a regular person to run a marathon like a marathon winner or to demand from the marathon winner to always run the marathon at or under his own personal record time. Impossible. There are variations. That is one of the reasons why that 1 million dollar paranormal challenge is bullshit. When it comes to paranormal stuff like telepathy, remote sensing, out of body projections, etc. the vast majority of people lack both the knowledge/understanding on how to do it as well as the power to do it. Just like a regular person lacks both the knowledge about how to run a marathon efficiently and also the strength to actually run it.

On top of all this there are things that significantly mess up the chances of paranormal things to be accepted. For example:
- It is socially ridiculed
- Most who actually do it are "scammers"/actors and they themselves know they're not doing what they say they're doing but deceiving. This is what magic acts are, but magicians at least don't demand from you to believe the trick they show you is real.
- Others truly believe they have certain abilities thou they don't. Could be because they want to have them and mentally program themselves subconsciously to enforce this belief and wish and if they just had a dream they will think it was a premonition or if there was a cloud on the sky that looked like Jesus it meant something more than being a random cloud, etc. Sometimes such "signs" may happen to somebody who will eventually evolve into somebody with unusual abilities and it will have a meaning or not and it will be a trigger for him. Many times though it is just wishful thinking.
- Experiments and tests performed in an organized manner are unlikely to make it into the mainstream science because they may be considered top secret or national security related material (just like the blueprints for a weapon).
- Sometimes, if somebody does have such abilities he might feel - for whatever reason - it's a good idea to keep his mouth shut about it. Sometimes paranormal events may not even be repeatable for a person but more of a one-time event to help them out in a situation (e.g. mother feeling her child is in danger).

More on the science-paranormal connection, if somebody builds one day a device that can make masses of people feel acute discomfort out of the sudden, that could very easily be presented as somebody's paranormal ability. Vice-verse is also possible. But then maybe you found out about Vehicle-Mounted Active Denial System (V-MADS) and is not paranormal anymore. Or most people would think brain washing and induction of thoughts or feelings is bullshit and they are in control of their thoughts, but then if you're not naive enough maybe you sit down and analyze what's on TV and how it is all being presented in smallest detail, or you read in a book how certain types of sounds, songs, colors or messages can affect your predisposition to buy things, and then, out of the sudden, the choice of colors in a store and the fact they play music means something different, is not just some random things.

All this might seem non-paranormal or very paranormal, depending on where you're at with your understanding of things and knowledge. Same goes for other paranormal stuff like telepathy, thought induction, remote sensing, levitation, etc. If you are being thought how to do them and have the necessary power, you might be able to do them. As with many other things, it would not be simple. Is not like you think "ok, I want to levitate now" and there you are levitating. Nothing interesting is that simple. Even obtaining the awesome paranormal skill of understanding what Chinese folks talk about requires months of learning the Chinese language.

Another thing is that many people expect paranormal stuff to be 100% paranormal and 0% natural/normal. It's more of a mix. You don't just snap into being telepathic and become blind, deaf and senseless in every other way. You just acquire the paranormal skill in a way that is integrated with the rest of you. But you're not the person you were before just like somebody who goes from being a couch potato into being an athlete isn't the same person anymore. He's the same person but in a way he isn't. Also, just because you have an ability doesn't mean you use it all day long for anything and everything. I'm pretty sure an athlete isn't running and jumping all the time, even when he's drinking his morning coffee or brushing his teeth. Also maybe you're not always at your best just like an athlete isn't always at his best. So sometimes maybe you can do paranormal stuff other times maybe you can't.

Then you have the belief/acceptance part. To be able to do something, anything, whether it is paranormal or normal, you must believe it is possible. If you don't you won't be able to do it. If you go to train for a 10km marathon and all you're thinking is "this is insane, this can't be possible, there's no way i can fucking run 10km without resting, i'm going to fucking dye" I assure you that you won't even make it close to 5km. The moment you think "i can absolutely run 10km without rest and as a matter of fact this is just the beginning, I'm going to run 50km one day" then that's the moment you will start to actually see improvement. And since we're on a money making forum, it is the same with making a lot of money. Because it's the same with anything, really.

Just hugging the "it's impossible" or "i don't believe this" will blind you from the truth, whatever the truth is. You want to know the truth, if paranormal things really exist, then YOU have to go research and look for them. It is the same for some scientists and atheists and skeptics and everybody who is sabotaging themselves by negatively programming their minds and expectations. If you want to go and find out if you have a penny in your pocket you don't go and say "there's no penny in my pocket, i know there isn't because it's impossible for a penny to be in my pocket". Instead you reach into your pocket to search for it. So even if it is or it isn't there, the way to find it or not find it is to assume it is there and reach for it.

About the technicalities of the paranormal stuff, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of information about it. It just sounds crazy to most people. Like some people if you talk to them about energies or morphic fields they accept that but they would never believe in angels. Others will believe in angels but not want to hear about energies or aliens. Some will believe and feel the power of praying, others will think is bullshit and be totally against it but will consider it's perfectly fine to say a magic formula as long as you never call it a pray in their presence. Doesn't really matter IMO, they're all names/words for things and ways people understand something and think of it. Try everything and see whatever you resonate with and whatever makes sense to you. Not just about paranormal stuff, about everything really.

About evidence... if you don't want to believe you won't no matter how much evidence you're given, not even if you're being stung in the ass by a glittery pink unicorn. Once you programmed yourself not to believe you're not looking anymore, you just created yourself a reality that for you is true and absolute. I think Rupert Sheldrake did a study on telepathy between dogs and their masters and a lot of other stuff about related to his theory of morphic fields. This video I found recently also comes to mind. This one may also be interesting but haven't seen it yet. Always liked Terrence McKenna because he never seemed to try to give his experiences a meaning set in stone, he just went on the ride. There are scientists who studied paranormal stuff and have been ridiculed. Scientists who have won prizes and been seen as some of the greatest minds, when they published work about stuff like this ended up being marginalized. There's a lot of evidence that paranormal things are real and evidence that they are not. You believe whichever you want. As a matter of fact you may choose to believe whichever is more useful for you and what you want to achieve. At the end of the day, the only proof that will ever matter will be the proof you will get yourself, personally. Everything else is just people talking, rumors, lies, misinformation, conspiracies and potentially useful things.
 
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Chris Angel is only actor.

Here is how he do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dycpIPTFJ04
How about floating in air?

I just quoted a random example of him on water. He has done ample number of tricks that cannot be undefined. Why dont these magic revealing guys reveal his every magic trick that people see? Why only few of them? Though I say he is an actor but to me, he has some powers.

And above that, David Coperfield is another person
 
yes there is magic but not the people commonly know today

http://www.islamawareness.net/BlackMagic/magic.html
 
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