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Is this True?

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by therealmadhatter, Oct 1, 2011.

  1. therealmadhatter

    therealmadhatter Regular Member

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    I went through some of the threads and found this post, is this True?

    I am from India too, here ppl inherit their parents houses, apartments, lands and other belongings like Gold and stuff, why is it different in the Western nations. Moreover, when your parents get old, what they do, The children are far off from parents, who will take care of western parents when they get old?
     
  2. losille

    losille Junior Member

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    Any time you read a sweeping generalization like this you know it isn't true.
    Some of the statements are kind of true but it is the norm.
    It sounds like the person that wrote that was either very unhappy in his/her own life and blaming other people.
    OR The person was a troll trying to start a fight.
    The Indian families that I know. The parents emigrated here, grandmother lives there, the children all have their own homes and families.
    My sister's doctor is from India and she bought her mother in a home in a retirement community. lol She said she couldn't live with her mother, her mother drove her nuts.
    lol We don't receive welfare for alcohol and cigarettes. If we did I would go get a voucher. There are people who drink and smoke on welfare. 99% of people on welfare people are down on their luck. They don't want to be there.

    I could go point for point but I think it is pretty clear that the person that wrote that was biased and as I said very unhappy or a troll trying to start trouble.
    Think past that blanket statement. If you want more answers about he US and Canada all the information is at your fingertips.
     
  3. therealmadhatter

    therealmadhatter Regular Member

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    No more replies?
     
  4. Kickflip

    Kickflip BANNED BANNED

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    Wtf? How does any of that post look like I am unhappy with my life and looking to start a fight? I am stating facts. You even said it yourself. Your sisters doctor put her mother in a home in a retirement community so obviously she is a very westernized woman (the doctor).

    That is what we do with our elderly people here.
    We send them to live in a "retirement home" or "retirement community" where they go live with other old people and wait to die.
    We only visit them usually once or twice per year.

    Ask me what other facts you are really interested in and I will explain them in a real way.

    Children do inherit some things like Homes, Land, Belongings, but for a normal family usually the parents own very little belongings and no home to pass along. Children just always want to move out of the parents home as soon as possible.

    The main point of my post was:
    1) It is shameful for western children to stay living with parents past age 20-24.
    2) Western families are very irresponsible with their money and don't save money very well.
     
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  5. Jonny Quick

    Jonny Quick BANNED BANNED

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    Kickflip is correct. For the most part, it is an American cultural value that adult children move away from their parents and become self-sufficient. Exceptions are made for college, and extreme financial situations, but for the most part if you are in your mid-20's and living with your parents and are not a full-time student you are a failure.

    Usually, living with your parents as a young adult indicates laziness, a drug or alcohol problem, some kind of social disorder (a shut-in that has no friends, etc...) or an unhealthy attachment to your parents. I suppose another exception might be made if the parent's health is poor, or the child is helping out the parents in some other way, such as paying rent to live with them, etc...

    This is not as true here in Texas, which is heavily influenced by Mexican culture. Here in San Antonio, many hispanics live in the same house with 3 generations together. I find this whole notion distasteful and abhorent, and personally I really don't care about this BS about "cultural differences". Many of these people are marginally employed, marginally functional and are able to live only because they pay nothing in rent or food, and yet they will always have plenty of beer and/or pot and time to go out and party on a Friday night.

    So, while my main point is that there are cultural differences, my secondary point is that it is fair to describe one as being inferior than the other, as living 10 - 20 people in a single household means that EVERYONE knows all about all of your business 24/7, and have absolutely no problem sticking their nose in it whenever they feel like it. Mexicans/Mexican-Americans/Hispanics have a very different understanding of where interpersonal boundries are. I know of two completely separate white/anglo men that made the mistake of marrying into Mexican families and in both cases the marriage ended in divorce because their wives were submitting every single private and intimate detail of their lives to the entire family for discussion.

    All of these things are important to understand because the world is getting smaller, and cross-racial/cultural marriages are becoming more and more common. It would be a good idea to contemplate the consequences of marrying outside your culture, as the differences that are "celebrated" in theory in places like college may be completely unacceptable when practiced in real life.

    I should also add this can go in many directions. For example, I have also heard of Arab men having very difficult times after marrying western (i.e. American) women. Apparantly American women say whatever happens to pop into their head, whenever they feel like it, and after a while Arab men get tired of having to listen to their American wives nattering and yammering about every stupid thing, constantly in their heads all day long, 24/7 with never a break and never getting the idea that sometimes it's best just to shut the f*** up.

    Apparantly there is something wrong with these Arab men, although I cannot possibly imagine what it is.
     
  6. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    That isn't actually true.

    If you look at the statistics, the great majority of older adults in the U.S. don't live in any kind of institution, aren't receiving any paid help, and do rely on their families in their final years. It isn't usually until their health is such that there isn't any other choice when they end up in a nursing home.

    Depending on financial and other economic factors some families are able to provide home care longer than others, but when a decision is finally made to put a parent in a nursing home it's usually because health care concerns have made it a necessity.

    The fact is that most families take the decision to place a family member in assisted living or a nursing home very seriously, and they usually don't just 'walk away' after doing so.
     
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  7. Kickflip

    Kickflip BANNED BANNED

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    You are looking at only one type of facility. You are thinking of an assisted living type facility with nurses and food delivery and people who bathe you. I am not mostly referring to this only. I am referring to an old folks community (55+ communities) where elderly/senior people live mostly independently taking care of themselves. Such as an apartment complex or trailer park or townhouse complex.

    There are many many people who live in both assisted and independent senior retirement facilities. Assisted living/Nursing home and retirement home/retirement communities are not the same thing at all. It is quite expensive to place elderly people in assisted living/nursing homes which is actually what causes people to take the decision so seriously. People don't usually have the choice of letting the elderly family member live with them or not. They only do it because they can't afford to have someone else take care of them.

    Who wants an old person around? Not many people I know. Old people remind people of death.

    Out of hundreds of families I know:
    Not one of them has the grandparents living at home with them.
    Less than half see the grandparents more than once per month.
    Many do not even talk to the grandparents on the phone more than twice per year.

    I myself haven't spoken to my grandparents in 13 months. I haven't seen them in over 2 years.

    Some statistics:
    Approximately 5% of people over 65 in the USA live in Nursing Homes. This would be, as you say, mostly due to health reasons.

    But according to:
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_eld_liv_wit_chi-people-elderly-living-with-children

    Only approximately 15% of Senior Citizens live with their children. This statistic is from years ago but the data is still probably pretty accurate. Compare that to a country like Japan which holds similar views of their elderly, and you will see a huge difference. In Japan 65% of Seniors live with their children.

    That means that only 20% of Senior Citizens either live with family or in a nursing home.

    That means 80% of seniors aged 65+ are living on their own either in their own home or moved into a retirement community.

    If you Google search "how often to people visit their grandparents" you will see that many people only visit their elderly parents every few months after they have children. Usually it is because either the children or grandparents have moved away.

    I hope this explains my point much clearer.

    SHORT VERSION:
    USA = 15% of Seniors living with their Families.
    India = over 60% of Seniors living with their Families.
     
  8. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    You can't include both of those together in a statement saying "old people are placed in retirement homes and forgotten." That type of statement can only be applied to the nursing home type situation. The retirement community situation is a totally different thing, especially since you said 55+ (I'm 52 myself, lol). Retirement communities are a place that elderly people often choose to live themselves and often are full of very active people.


    Yeah your right about that I don't know many grandchildren taking care of their grandparents either. In fact when my own grandparents were old I was a young man and didn't spend the time with them I wish I would have, but that's just part of being young. My father and my aunt though did make sure that my grandparents were taken care of.

    I do know of MANY parents though, who are now taking care of their own parents. So while many of those grandchildren you're talking about are out getting a start on their lives, the parents are taking care of the grandparents. Maybe not always in the same household, but stopping in to make sure everything is fine, taking care of things the grandparents are no longer able to do themselves and just spending sometime with the people who are their own parents. When the time comes many of them will bring the parent into their own home if they can before it reaches the point that a nursing home becomes a necessity. It's usually a financial determination as to whether that's possible, and like I said circumstances vary a lot on that.

    So while the grandchildren are off starting their new lives and careers, somewhat forgetting about their parents and grandparents, the parents are busy making sure the grandparents are taken care of. As time goes on the younger generation settles down a bit and eventually makes a bit more time to spend with their parents, and eventually when they are parents themselves the cycle starts over again.


    Well I can only speak for myself on that matter, but my father had a stroke a few days before his 80th birthday (I was 45). The stroke left him with a condition called aphasia (look it up, but basically that means he lost the ability to use language), but when he was well enough to leave the hospital, I moved him into my home and cared for him for the next few years. I knew him well enough that I could still communicate with him and facilitate communication between him and others, so I became his primary caregiver and advocate. Had he been in an institution I felt (especially because of the language disability) that he would not have been given the respect he deserved. When he had health problems requiring it (once for a hip surgery and again later due to a second stroke), he did have hospital time and recovery time in a nursing facility, but I was there every day at those times to make sure he was being cared for properly and keep him company. When his recovery was enough for him to return home, we brought him home. He was able to live the final years of his life in a home with family that loved him, and could give him the dignity and respect he deserved. While it was difficult, I felt fortunate to have him around and glad I was able to provide for him when he needed it in his final years.

    Well at 65 most people are pretty well established and still pretty healthy so they don't need to move in with their families or into nursing facilities. It's not till they start getting into their mid to late 70s or 80s before that really becomes a concern. So those statistics are a bit meaningless, they would need to be broken down into smaller groups to see what the patterns really are. (I have friends in their mid to late 60s who still ride harleys and hang out at bars. They'd be ready to kick some ass if someone suggested they couldn't take care of themselves. lol)


    I imagine from some of your comments that you're still young. I'll tell you that the attitudes someone 20-40 has about the idea of taking care of an 80yo grandparent are different than the attitude a 40-60yo has about taking care of an 80yo parent. So while the idea of taking care of your grandparents may seem like something strange to you, when your parents reach that same age taking care of them probably won't seem such a strange thing to you. Its just another aspect of the cycle of life. :cool2:

    Yes I imagine you're correct about it being because they moved away. I would bet the answer would be significantly more often if it were limited to people still living in the same town or city in which their parents do. Americans do have a higher tendency to move away from the communities in which they grew up in than people in a lot of other countries do. That's probably the biggest reason that extended families living together has become less common among American families. A lot is made about how different Americans are about that than other nationalities, but up until around the 1940s or 50s it was very common for Americans as well. Affluence has a lot to do with that, and probably also gives a bit of an answer to the original post in this thread as well. The U.S is going through the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression, so it's really not that strange that we would see more people having to live at home with extended families again.



    edit-
    That's very sad... :sad: I bet they'd love to hear from you again.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 2, 2011
  9. davids355

    davids355 Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Different cultures. Different ways of life. Why the big debate??
     
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  10. something77

    something77 Registered Member

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    As a generalisation the statement is true. But it is a generalisation so of course exceptions can be found.

    My brother, my sister and I all let home at 18-19. My sister lives 4 homes from parents, brother 6 hours and I was 5 hours.

    Why does this happen? I don't know. But perhaps have something to do with the fact you can. Ask yourself this, if you could support yourself, be assured of being able to find work, would you not move out of your parents home? Move in with your friends / on your own. No one questioning your decisions, get drunk when you want, bring random girls back when you want, generally do what you want when you want? What late teen / early 20s person wouldn't want.

    The only positive I can think of staying at home is your meals cooked and clothes washed.

    Meals + clothes vs Sex drugs and rock n roll???

    What happens to the parents when they get old? Private + public pensions generally will have them covered.
     
  11. Kickflip

    Kickflip BANNED BANNED

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    You are letting your own circumstances influence your thoughts too much, where as I am simply basing it off of the country as a whole, because that is what we are trying to discuss here. The facts are the facts. As a country, the seniors in the USA are not taken care of by their children as much as in India.

    You are even trying to get us to skew our view of the facts by suggesting only looking at the group of seniors who still live in the same city as their grandparents, but that is exactly the point here. People in India wont move to a different city without their parents as much as people in the USA.

    I can include assisted living facilities and 55+ retirement communities in the same category because they have the same effect: The seniors are not living at home with the younger generation. Why shouldn't they be lumped into the same category? The seniors are not living under the same roof. They see their families much less often then if they lived under the same roof. Again, that is the point here.

    I think you really miss the point of what I said and you are trying to defend yourself and your generation and you are taking this too much on a personal level instead of seeing for what it is.

    From every one of the surveys I have seen, about 40% of people see their Elderly parents/Grandparents less than once per month. Close to 20% see them only once per year on average.

    Are there different circumstances for everyone? Yes, sure. But a MUCH higher percentage of Elderly people live in Retirement Communities and Retirement Homes in the USA than in India. Maybe we don't "send them" to live there, they may choose to live there, but I was simply getting a point across.

    It is a financial and social burden to have your elderly parents come and live with you in the USA. People don't plan for it. In India they plan for it. They are ready for it. The majority of people in the USA simply wouldn't be able to comfortably afford to take care of another person. Especially a sick elderly person who needs extra care and possibly expensive medicine.

    Again, don't take everything so personal. This isn't about you or your personal life. We really aren't here to discuss that. We are talking about generalizations on the country as a whole and how we deal with: A) Living with our families. B) Having our Elderly live with us.

    And if you want to get personal: I have already had a talk with my mother and she said that if it ever comes a point to where she has to rely on me to physically take care of her, she would prefer to die. She said that having to rely on someone else to bathe her would take away all of her dignity. She is 46 years old. So as you can see, person to person, things sway quite differently. That is why we don't bring in personal matters and try to rely on statistics of the general population.

    Oh, and finally, referring back to my previous survey of people aged 65+ living with their families. The average life expectancy in Japan is the highest out of every major country, yet they have the highest number of people aged 65+ living with their family on my survey. So just because your friends can still ride motorcycles doesn't change the fact that they could be living with their children, but they aren't. And that is the point here.
     
  12. gilbertbank

    gilbertbank Newbie

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    We could all probably do a bit better, couldn't we?

    I was raised by my gramps and loved it! Would still be there today had I known what agreat time I was going to have leaving at 20 and becoming a "success".

    My partner works in a very exclusive care facility for for the gray ones and indeed they receive few visitors. Out of sight.....

    As they say success is relative. Don't forget them.
     
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  13. Kickflip

    Kickflip BANNED BANNED

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    Exactly I am not saying that every person in the USA send their elderly parents to live in a care facility. I am not saying nobody in the USA visits their elderly parents. But compared to India, the people in the USA do send more of the elderly to stay in care facilities and visit them less.

    People can say that it is because they will get better care in one of these facilities than if they stay at home with their children. But I think many elderly people would agree it would be better to die sooner and spend more time with your family, then live longer and barely see your family.

    From my research, 55+ retirement communities and assisted living facilities are very much a western practice, especially in comparison to Asian countries.
     
  14. TheKingGeek

    TheKingGeek Senior Member

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    For Hispanic people, like me. Living with your parents doesnt meant you are a "failure", it just make everything easier to pay the rent, grocery shopping, and pay bills, everything pay evenly by everyone living in the house. In my case my parents, two brothers and I. Nowwww if you are merried still living with your parents, that is a completely different case. But is the house is a 2 or 3 store house, why not?

    Also being a full time student at college doesn't make you "successful" only an idiot can think like that. I was goig to college and did great the first semester, second semester I drop out, because I don't like to be part of the system and just do something because everyone else is doing it. Most people think they have to go to college or they will be a nobody in the future. Am more than positive that one day I will be rich or at least leaving a good life thanks to this forum and other AM forums. Beside getting a diploma/degree doesnt guaranteed that you will have a "good job" and successful life.

    Have a friend with a 4+ years MBA in business, job less for almost a year now :confused:

    I have two jobs, I pay rent, give money for my food, and also pay bills. I'm 20, should I stop working and the die because I still live with my parents?

    Yeah didnt think so :rolleyes:
     
  15. Kickflip

    Kickflip BANNED BANNED

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    No you shouldn't stop working and die. You should consider continue working and moving out on your own if you want to follow the social norm if you are in the USA. If you don't care about the socially normal behavior, then do what you please. But it is 100% a fact that the American society views living with your parents when you are not in school as a shameful behavior.

    It doesn't mean you are a failure. But it does appear that you HAVE to rely on your parents and you aren't able to take care of yourself. Many adults want their children to move out, so they can have a social life, have friends over to get drunk etc.

    In your Hispanic culture, it may be more acceptable to get drunk with your children present, I do not know. Or maybe your parents just don't want to get drunk and have parties with people their own age. But I know that most white American parents don't like to get drunk and tell dirty jokes etc with their kids in the house. We see that as redneck behavior.

    So out of respect for my mother, I do not live with her.
     
  16. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    No I'm not letting my circumstances influence my thoughts on the matter. I explained that not all families are able to do what I was able to do, but that even the ones that can't don't take the situation lightly. By including everyone 55+ or in some of your argument as 65+ you're making the statistics look much more grim than they really are. As a country we actually do take care of our seniors, they just don't really need much additional care here until they reach a much older age. That's partly because of a lot of governmental policies put in place after the Great Depression, and partly a result of the general post-war affluence the U.S. experienced after the end of WWII.

    I'm not skewing the facts by bringing up seniors who live in the same city as their family. It's an important factor to look at when compiling the statistical data you're presenting. The U.S. has always had a very mobile population. It was founded by colonists willing to leave everything behind to start a new life in a new land, and then further enforced when the descendents of those colonists expanded across new territories as they opened up. Even then though we were very family centric, and once established whole families would follow.

    The affluence the U.S. experienced following WWII (and which is always reinforced again after the few economic recessions since then), is what has allowed U.S. citizens to become so self sufficient without pulling together support from families. During the recessions though there has always been some return to families helping support each other. This particular recession, as I said earlier, is the worst we've seen since the Great Depression. The recovery is going through a lot of the same stages that were experienced after that depression. At that time the economy never really fully recovered until the U.S. entered a war, the recovery happened with a post-war boom-economy. (The world is a different place now and even a successful war is unlikely to create a similar post-war boom-economy).

    So in answer to the original post, in such a poor economy as we are experiencing now it's too be expected that we'll see more young people continuing to live with their parents and more elderly parents getting support from their children. Extended families have the benefit of pooling together resources, and in especially difficult times doing so in a single household makes that benefit even better. As the economy recovers you'll see a reverse in that trend again, because Americans tend to be very independent. But don't be fooled into thinking that somehow makes us better or even significantly different than people in other cultures.


    Americans do take pride in our personal independence, and we might be more likely to live in separate households than in a same household with extended families like many other nationalities, but when it comes down to it we're still a family centric culture and we'll do what's necessary to take care of our own. (Even if at times that means returning to extended households when practical).
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2011
  17. jgeeked

    jgeeked Regular Member

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    Why do you even care about what happens half way across the world, or even what is the social norm for where you live? I say just do you, and whatever you want then your always happy.
     
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  18. therealmadhatter

    therealmadhatter Regular Member

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    Thanks jgeeked, that is what matters!
     
  19. jazzc

    jazzc Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    When I get old (hopefully) and unable to take care of myself, I will go on a retirement home myself.

    Why the fuck would I want my kids to lose their energy by taking care of me? Doesn't make any sense. :saeek:
     
  20. Manny

    Manny Registered Member

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    One thing I can say for sure, is that class warfare has been ratcheted up lately with a vengeance. In this economy, nobody should be making generalizations, and blaming its victims. We need to have a wider view of the situation.