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Fluff vs. Step by Step Methods

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by GreyWolf, May 24, 2010.

  1. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    I made a comment in another thread and it got a response I felt like answering, but I didn't want to hijack the thread because the OP of that thread is actually looking for some real help. If anyone can help the OP in the other thread fine tune his backlinking strategy the original thread is here: http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackh...an-anyone-suggest-service-actually-works.html


    The following discussion seems more appropriate to the lounge so I decided to bring it here. Maybe some other people have a take on the idea of people searching through the general information in the forums rather than asking to be spoonfed a specific step by step plan that can be implemented without needing to even understand why it works.

    The step by step, blow by blow methods are rarely shared, because once they are, immediately thousands of people are following that exact laid out plan with no variation, and very little understanding of why they should do it.

    Within days or weeks, the method becomes useless to anyone. Then people look at the method and complain that its pointless info that doesn't work. The people complaining about it are actually annoyed because no one is sharing the real methods, just these pointless ones that don't work. Meanwhile others are using that very idea behind the method to continue making a lot of money.

    The internet is so full of crap that's being created and hosted everyday by people trying to use "cookie cutter methods to riches" that when you actually look for something on google you have to wade through all that crap before you can find really valuable information. The sad thing is most of people creating that crap aren't making nearly as much as the originator of the method, if anything at all. Even the creators of Xrummer and Scrapebox post messages to their users every now and then, trying to explain to people that they are just tools. If you don't give some thought to the comments, anchors, etc. that are being blasted out then using the tools is a waste of time. Change things up a little; be a little creative to get the best results. The average person unfortunately can't grasp the concept and ignores them, the continue blasting out a lot of spam that doesn't accomplish anything more than annoy the masses.

    I'm not claiming to be one of the guys offering great methods, I was pointing out that if you search the forums you can find methods that those guys have offered. If you have little understanding of how things work then most of the methods won't work for you because they were ruined by oversaturation within a short time of being offered. If you have even a slight understanding of how things work, and you read many of those methods, you will realize that the ideas are still valid and you can still make money with the methods.

    The reason I point people to the search button is because you're right, there are like a million posts to go through. It makes more sense to search through them, than it does to ask for those million posts to be rehashed every time someone opens a new thread asking for help.

    The internet is the greatest informational research tool ever invented, and yet instead of using it to find information, so many people only use it as a way to ask the same questions over and over. Instead of looking for the information themselves, they ask for someone else to find the information for them.

    Just to clue you in a little, pretty much every single one of those tricks that you think no one is going to share on here, actually has been shared. Not in one step by step spoonfed method like you want, but in bits and pieces. Answers to people?s questions that you think aren't good enough, threads discussing topics that you think are pointless, scattered throughout the forum the information is there. If you know how to search for information, you can find them. There isn't one magic trick that anyone is going to layout for your step by step. There are many small tips that when used together will achieve what your looking for.

    I haven't made any great shares myself; just posted some general basic information I thought might be helpful for people starting out. For my own business I don't use any tricks, I just follow a lot of the advice that you seem to think is worthless fluff. I haven't come up with any magic bullet methods myself, but I have offered specific answers in some of my posts. Mostly though I've tried to get people to look at why they should do the things they're told to do. Tried to get people to understand some of the basic things that make the various methods work. I've tried giving them a way of looking at the information they find on here, so that they can start identifying the bits and pieces of information that they can use and put together into a method that works.

    I guess that type of share is more annoying than helpful. Maybe I should tone it down a little. I'm just providing a lot of fluff that gets in the way for people looking to be spoonfed an exact step by step method. Apparently people just want a method they can follow without needing to understand why it works. So I guess I'll just go back to reading through all the posts and threads that you think are so useless, and use them to continue building my own business, and leave everyone else to their whining and complaining that no one shares the REAL TRICKS. As I see the new methods get offered and then destroyed by people just following the methods by rote, and then after everyone starts bitching about what a worthless method it is I'll start using the ideas behind the method to start making more money with it.

    I probably shouldn't even be making posts as often as I do. I'm certainly not a guru who's making a lot of money at this. I'm still only making a couple thousand dollars a month online. But that's four times what I was making online a year ago, and I spend most of my time working on solid long-term projects. I keep searching for more things to do to add to my projects and my online income has been continually increasing since I started, just in small amounts.

    I have an offline job that I only need to work a few hours a day, but within another 6 months to a year I should reach a point that I can eliminate that job completely. That might not seem like a great accomplishment to anyone looking for the "step by step get rich quick methods", but it still makes me smile every month. Deposits are made in my bank account for things I did all the work a year ago that still brings in a few dollars to a few hundred dollars a month on various websites. I like it enough that each month I keep coming back on here to find more things I can use to start more projects and fine tune my old ones.
     
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    Last edited: May 24, 2010
  2. Arraial

    Arraial Registered Member

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    Greywolf, i think that you wrote one of the most interesting treads in a looooooooong time.
    When i joined this forum i tought, hey, this is something new, i will finally discover the "x" on the treasure map ... but like all feelgood bedtime stories you will only end up dreaming of your goldmine.

    I think that this is the way the world works, you have to have patience, learn the basics. I'm still surprised how many people on this forum don't know a basic computer language ... The secret is somewhere in here and out there, sometimes i find some bits and pieces and my mind is working overtime to get them all together.

    Now i only search for specific things that interest me, because reading posts like "learn how to make a zillion dollars in only 1 day" is just a waste of time.

    I'm planning my first real moneysite after lots of failures, i'm taking the time to get my content 100% right, several keywords, description, title, domain, SEO in general ... before i even begin to think about backlinking.

    I think that if today you offer quality on the web, people will visit you and re-visit you because of that quality. Anyway, just my 2 cents.
     
  3. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    Thanks. It just seems like I keep reading posts where people are complaining because they aren't given an exact step by step method. They don't seem to think anything else on bhw is worth reading. Whenever there is a step by step method though, so many people try to follow it that soon those instructions are worthless.
     
  4. MisterGemini

    MisterGemini Senior Member

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    You can't blame them really.

    Most are still in the factory assembly line style education system that tells them to do exactly what the teacher tells them to do, follow exactly what the exercises tell them to do, and nothing more. A++ for barfing up exactly what the teacher told you.

    So what you end up with, a bunch of lemmings. :)

    I can understand your frustration. It also stems partly from the very well marketed perception of the secret society money making blackhatters. 95% of members are here believe that 5% are holding out on what really works. The 5% though are just saying 'stop being lemmings' :) .. even though there is a small % of this 5% who are responsible for this perception.. to sell ebooks, courses, and yes indeed, private memberships :). So the cause of that still lingers on in everyones mind.

    Between these two causes, the effect has been as you have so aptly illustrated.

    It's easy to get caught up in this type of issue with others. With good intensions on one end, and greed on the other, it's easy for most to get frustrated and treat those that know and have success like horders.

    Truthly, and I know a lot of people won't like this. Beyond what you have said Greywolf about methods and techniques going flat. The truth is that even if everything was spoon fed that way, for most out there, they will still fail. Not just out of the method being used up, but because the broke mentality drives them to sabotage the very thing they want to lead to success. It's then followed by the all so common phrase 'I knew it, this is a scam'. Of course it is, because everything in your world is what you make it, and you have decided that you deserve failure and whatever you do will turn to shit. And they get exactly what they asked for, everytime.

    The turning point only comes not when they learned some new method, but when they got their heads out of their asses and started to incorporate some basic success principles into their lives/minds/hearts. Low and behold, success comes. Often its attributed to whatever they were doing, but that was just consequental. Whatever they are doing will dry up one day, and they will move on, and be successful with something else, because they got a success world view now, and no more shit on the brains. :)

    If someone complains to you about this, just ask a few simple questions to examine where their head is at, how their outlook on things is. I guarantee you 100% of the time, they got a piss poor attitude that has translated into their piss poor lifestyle. Get them to do a workup on that stuff first, then feel free to show them something. At that point you can show them pretty much anything, because they will turn it into gold. Well, maybe just bronze first time around, but with knowledge and experience, comes the confidence that then leads to gold performance.

    Maybe I am a little off base from where this thread started, but this is what I thought about what you said. :)

    As far as a solution to not having to search through forums.. my answer to that is, if you don't like it, go join a Wiki. Or make one if you are so deadset against reading over threads in a forum. A Wiki would be a more concise way to maintain such step by step methods, and would make it easier to keep it updated as well (ie. don't have to tred through 200 posts to find out whups, step 2 in the first post no longer works, do this instead).

    Mister Gemini
     
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  5. evilman11

    evilman11 Junior Member

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    well said man, this is a piece of information that i wish more people would get through their thick skulls but unfortunately won't. as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. btw, im surprised your fingers still work for typing stuff since every comment i see from you is like 5 pages long. think they would be worn out by now. jk :p
     
  6. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    @MisterGemini - I think that was a very well stated reply. I especially think the part quoted here is so apt.
    Even when something is laid out for someone, if the underlying reasons behind it aren't understood at least a little bit, most of the time there's little chance of success. But whenever anyone discusses the reasons why things work, people are frustrated because it doesn't explain step by step what to do. What they're missing is that in many cases it is explained what to do, or it relates to something else that has been explained many times before. If you understand it the steps become clear. Rather than learn from the information so many people just ignore it as irrelevant. It seems like too much work, not enough work, or maybe even pointless work, but in any case it doesn't seem like the super secret method. While staring right at the information they need, they continue to think, "It's obvious that the real methods are being held back."

    I'm glad to see there are some other well thought out replies on this topic. Thanks to everyone who felt like adding to my thoughts on the matter. It will be ignored by most people that need to understand it the most, but maybe it will help a few people that read this thread get a clue on how they really can use the information found on BHW and many other similar forums, blogs, websites, and ebooks.
     
  7. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    This is a little off topic, but you might think its funny.

    What I've been writing on here lately just kinda flows out, even though I don't really know anyone it feels more like I'm just chatting with friends. My family and friends barely understand what a computer is, so I rarely have the opportunity to discuss these topics. So coming on here has been a bit of an outlet for me. This is what I've been doing to relax and clear my head between real work I'm doing. The reality is that I really don't enjoy writing. Unless I understand something fairly well, its hard for me to write about it. I guess the quality of my writing isn't that bad, but usually the biggest problem I have with my own projects is producing content. LOL

    I've always avoided niches like making money, how to make websites, marketing and SEO. Not because they're so competitive, but I've never thought I could produce good enough content on the topic. There are so many people that know more than I do. All the stuff I've been writing is just so basic. A lot of it is important if you want to really make a lot of other methods succeed, but it isn't like I've been offering up any real methods. Just a little helpful advice for people trying to make other methods work. I've actually been a little surprised at how much positive response I've gotten. It's all appreciated though. :)

    I should probably collect all the stuff I've been writing, break it into categories, set up a blog and find a few clickbank products to promote on it. Anyone have any suggestions on specific products that might be suited for that? If not then I'll just search clickbank for a few that seem related. I'll have to give it a little more thought to decide if I could make a relevant website in this niche that would be worthwhile.

    ----

    Of course, it's only my opinion that my writing isn't that bad. Maybe I've just been annoying the hell out of everyone for the last month. LOL

    If that's the case then I'm really sorry everyone. I can get a little verbose at times. :)
     
  8. evilman11

    evilman11 Junior Member

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    yea i know man, very off topic and i was only joking. its just a rarity to see someone around here that goes so in depth about topics and has so much to say. i can definitely understand where you coming from to, where i am, most of the people around here wouldn't even know how to turn on a computer and even open a website if i never taught them how and thats no bullshit either. around here on bhw though, its totally different story. here i can talk to and connect with people that have common interest and have knowledge about the same things i do and not people that i know irl that are like wtf is google, a power button or a internet browser. i wasn't talking bad when i said what i did, im just saying that i would probably need some pain killers for my hands if i typed as you do on here lol.

    ive read quite a few of your postings that you've made on peoples threads and all i can say is its all premium and nothing but the truth. also, no i dont think it funny or something that you write as much as you do. i actually think post like these put alot more value into this place and make it a better place to be at. its to bad that not more people put this much effort into what they say on here than what you do. so cheers and keep adding valuable post to this great forum.
     
  9. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    @evilman11 - You misunderstood me.
    The funny part is about the fact that I don't like to write. LOL

    As far as my hands getting tired from typing, well I'm just used to it. :) I've had to type for various jobs since before some members on here were born. LOL. Sometimes its easier to type than it is to talk. You can type out a complete thought, but in a conversation it's easy to get interupted.

    Thanks for the compliment.
    It's pretty cool that some people think my posts are worthwhile. :)

    I'll tell you what though, a lot of people on this forum are a hell of a lot smarter than I am about all this stuff. I'm just fairly good at explaining some basic things. There are some real innovators on this forum, and they do share how to do things. You just won't realize how important a simple statement they make really is unless you've read a lot of other things that it's connected to. If you know what your looking at everything is pretty interconnected, even if it sometimes seems unrelated. Even things that are done for ewhoring, clads, FB, and more can have BH and WH relationships to standard website promotions and SEO.
    :cheers:
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  10. Nookie Monster

    Nookie Monster Senior Member

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    @Greywolf

    I found your posts to be very relevant. You actually clarified what I have thought for a while now. I keep MS Word open on my computer and make notes about what I read here. I go back to those notes and think about how things tie in together.

    It may not be the most elegant method but it works for me. :)
     
  11. MisterGemini

    MisterGemini Senior Member

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    There is a big difference between knowing something, and being able to teach it.

    Understand that some of the geekiest smartest people I have even known are totally challenged by even explaining the simplest of things. I believe it comes in part from having to center their way of thinking around what they do so much, that there just isn't much room left for being able to consider other pathways of communication.

    That being said, being able to convey stuff to others is another skill in itself that doesn't necessarily require knowing everything, but being able to translate it all into something which people can work with/understand.

    There is absolutely nothing in the world you cannot learn today online. It's all 'out there'. However, for many the challenge is being able to assimilate that information in a meaningful way. That is where someone else who has already done that usually comes in.

    The challenge of education today is not in teaching people how to do things, but getting them to assimilate the information in a meaningful and purposeful way.

    As we have already stated, for most they cannot make the connection between hours of reading and putting it together into a purposeful result.

    You can do what you suggested above, and there would be nothing wrong with that. Everyone started at Grade 1 at some point in their lives before they became PHD graduates, and guess what, the Grade 1 teacher was no PHD him/herself. Don't let the illusion of the educated elite be a deterrent to undermining your own current knowledge.

    Mister Gemini
     
  12. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    It's not a matter of undermining my current knowledge. I'm definately above the curve as compared to the average person. Part of that comes from just being around long enough to see things develop, for example it's a lot easier to understand how computers work if you had to work from the command line when you first started. Software was a lot less complex when even the most sophisticated programs had to fit on just a few 360k floppy disks, and had less than 640k of ram to utilize.

    It also helps that I've always been a jack-of-all-trades, when I was growing up you had to be like that. If you wanted something done, you had to do it yourself. Anything from construction, mechanics, electrical, etc., you either did the work yourself or it didn't get done. A lot of time we didn't even have the resources to get needed supplies, so we had to either repair what we could, or adapt something else to work in its place. That kind of background gives you a different way of looking at things. It makes it a lot easier to learn most things, and in doing so you get an understanding of how things work, but you only learn what you need to know to do whatever it is your doing. It's still not the same as being educated in a field, it takes a lot more to become a master at anything. By the time you get to be my age though, it really can amount to a fair amount of useful knowledge.

    I'm just saying..., there are a lot of members on this forum that are a lot smarter than me about IM, SEO, and other topics. Some of them learned it from school, some had time to learn it at home while still living off their parents. (All the computer related things that are so common today didn't even exist when I was young.) Some learned it because they have jobs that keep them current on everything. Whatever the reasons are, there are members on this forum that should be paid attention to if you really want to learn anything.

    When you come across one of those members you should look back at their previous posts. If people would learn how to pay attention to the things those members post, they might be surprised at how much information actually is shared. While they bitch about the things they think they aren't being told, they're overlooking when it is.
     
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  13. fatzips

    fatzips Junior Member

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    thanks! your post shed some light on a lot of things most people overlook
     
  14. intelligentmarketing

    intelligentmarketing Newbie

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    I've been looking through your previous posts, and I found them very well written and valuable. Thanks for that! :)
     
  15. madoctopus

    madoctopus Supreme Member

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    Fact of the matter is they lack knowledge. They just want to follow instructions in a world that changes daily. Most shitty methods from 2008 still work if you pay attention to detail and think in context. It's all in the details. You do blog commenting to build links, I do the same. You build 50000 links, I build 50 and outrank you. What do I do different? I stay away from what everybody else does and think WHY I am doing this and HOW can I improve the effectiveness of this method before I start. You don't. You just read that you have to do it and blast like a blind monkey or hire somebody to blast for you without knowing what to ask from that person. If you would you would never hire him in the first place because you'd know he's doing it the wrong way. I'm not talking to you GreyWolf, I think you realized that, I am talking to the noob who wants to follow step by step, full-disclosure methods. I'm telling him to understand before he does something. SEO is in a way like working with dynamite. If you understand how dynamite works, when it works, at what it is good, what are its dangers, what to never do with it, etc. you can build a tunnel, a bridge, a road. If you don't, your friends will say you were a nice guy at your funeral where they bury an empty casket because you got spread all over the place. SEO won't kill you, but you can easily waste years of your life and not get anywhere but still have faith you can do it. Faith is shit when is not backed by something solid. When you have knowledge and you got every aspect covered and on top you have faith, you can move mountains. When you have just faith like a student who prays to God all night before the exam but he doesn't spend 1 minute to learn the course, that's just being stupid and unrealistic.

    Also, I truly believe that if I would share my best methods (strategies actually), out of 10,000 people 9999 would think it is too much work or just don't get it at all because it is too advanced. The other 1 would become my nightmare competitor. SEO is not a skill by itself. SEO is not even "something" by itself. SEO is a combination of other skills that you use towards a specific goal. You can't be a SEO. You can be a coder with marketing skills that also learns about conversion and website usability and you understand graph theory because you learned it in college. With just that information you can then adapt to do SEO. A hacker/cracker can become a SEO because he has skills and knowledge and a good mindset. A marketing expert willing to learn technical stuff can adapt and become good at SEO. A guy who doesn't know shit and has no skills can't do SEO or anything else for that matter because he simply has no fking skills. It's like being a manager, you don't know anything but you think you can give orders and tell to people to do like you say because somehow you got in a position of power and they must obey you. Yes you'd be a manager, they would obey you but the business would be doomed because you really don't know what to ask them.

    That being said I think using the search function won't get you anywhere on a big forum. Instead go to members page, order by reputation and start reading their thanked threads. That's the most time effective way to find good stuff.
     
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