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Elitist Coders

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by Conor, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. Conor

    Conor Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    I'm curious to get the opinion of other web developers about something that's been bugging me lately: The age old Wordpress vs custom coded/static website debate.

    Personally, I'm pro Wordpress (That is to say, I approve of it. Not "I am a professional".). But I've noticed there are also some very "set in their ways" developers who believe that ALL websites should be custom coded from scratch, otherwise it isn't a proper website. They hold the belief that Wordpress is another cheap gimmick like Wix or Blogger.

    Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe for a second that Wordpress is the end all solution to all websites ever. Sometimes you do need a custom solution. However, I believe that the only reasons you'd ever want to custom code ALL websites from scratch is because you're either clinging to the past, or you just like making things difficult so you can charge more.

    Personally, I find both of these excuses to be quite narrow minded. A brief browse around crappy forums such as DP, or some Facebook job groups will reveal the mentality of such people. They'll come up with a thousand reasons why people who use Wordpress are not "real" web designers. Sure, some people deliver bad service, but that's the case in any market. Don't blame the tool. Unless the tool happens to be Wix or Blogger. Then you really aren't a real web designer.

    My question is this: Do you enjoy making life difficult for yourself by clinging to your dying craft? Are you just butthurt that your market has become saturated by people who can do your job quicker than you can?

    Seriously though, I genuinely do want other opinions. Why should ALL websites be custom coded?
     
  2. Nut-Nights

    Nut-Nights Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    I am butthurt that my market has become saturated by people who can do my job quicker than i can. If you need a website with complex features only in that case you need a custom one. Hope you understand what i am trying to say.
     
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  3. Conor

    Conor Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    That's totally reasonable though. Wordpress can't do everything. Sometimes you need something more advanced.

    However, I don't believe that a custom solution should be the only solution when it's a job that Wordpress can do just fine.
     
  4. handmadebots

    handmadebots Senior Member

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    The first thing that comes into my mind is security.

    If you have a plugin that is vulnerable, and you don't update it in time, you're pretty much fuc*ed. Any script kiddie could run a google dork, and an already built script from exploit-db and your website might be compromised.
    If it's custom built, even though it's vulnerable (let's hope not), you "need" somebody that knows what he's doing in order to get in.
     
  5. waqas_ibrahim

    waqas_ibrahim Regular Member

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    WordPress was a blogging platform at start but now it has become a 1 in all solution and that's why a new blogging platform named ghost is growing rapidly now. As a developer I don't like WordPress, coding a WordPress theme from scratch is very frustrating, making it compatible for all plugins, also the coding standards are not great. But still WordPress is a good solution for a person who does not have coding experience. They can easily setup a website/blog within minutes.
     
  6. I know SEO

    I know SEO Marketplace Mod Moderator

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    These are usually people who do not have the skills to develop wordpress themes/pluggins from my experience... They pretend WP isn't all that by pretending they can build better platforms.

    I'd argue the opposite... a project with 100's of developers like WP is less likely to have unsanitized data entry or other mistakes than a custom script written by one guy on his own.
     
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  7. handmadebots

    handmadebots Senior Member

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    Not talking about WP (the CMS), but talking about the plugins for it, which aren't built by 100's of developers.

     
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  8. Conor

    Conor Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    Sure, but that brings me back to the "some people deliver bad service" part. Your website is only as safe as you make it, right? If you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't be making websites, regardless of the platform.
     
  9. handmadebots

    handmadebots Senior Member

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    If you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't be making websites, regardless of the platform.
    I agree 100% with you, and not just for websites. But I don't think that was the point of your thread.

    Even if you have a plugin that's vulnerable, if the developer knows what he's doing, he could eventually pentest it by himself, and solve the (eventual) bugs before they even become publicly available.

    The idea is that you get what you pay for, whichever platform it is.
     
  10. Conor

    Conor Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    @I know SEO made a good point about this. Plugins aren't usually developed by 100s of developers, but they are part of a directory used by millions people daily. If there ever is a vulnerability or exploit, it's likely to get spotted and patched a lot faster than one guy going through his own custom coded site.

    No website is "unhackable", but even with potentially vulnerable plugins, it's not rocket science to secure a Wordpress site to the point where it'll be very difficult to hack into. I think it'd be a lot more tedious getting the level of security of a custom coded site to that of a secure Wordpress site.
     
  11. dinkerdok

    dinkerdok Newbie

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    The people telling you this, they're jobs depend upon it. They're unhappy because they spent so much time learning their craft, only to be overtaken by a piece of software. Get used to it, there will be more of this coming in the future.

    ok, so let's look at the rebuttals that normally come against WP.

    1) Security (mainly plugins)
    2) Plugin updates (that break WP, or are not compatible)
    3) WP can't do everything (ie there's things it wont be able to do for you later, when you decide they're needed)

    On security:

    I've run loads of WP installations, and never had a hacker or problem I couldnt resolve. TBH, this could happen just as easily (if not more easily) with custom code. Just make sure to keep regular daily db backups (and backup WP files whenever you release or update), so you can revert to the latest version if needed. If security problems keep happening regularly, get rid of WP and code it yourself (security integrated). I seriously doubt it will be needed though.

    On Plugin updates:

    I never really have too many problems with these either. Admittedly I don't keep WP fully up to date (so less plugins go out of date) and I also try to minimise the amount of plugins I use. By not keeping WP up to date I think there are less bugs, and less compatibility issues for plugins.

    WP can't do everything:

    Well this is wrong, because it can do pretty much anything any website can do (given the ability to hack the core, or code a plugin).


    You might get rebuttals like speed issues and things like that (when the site gets big), but you have lots of options such as caching and optimising your database indexes (even you can put some things in solr, or a search based engine I believe).
     
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  12. handmadebots

    handmadebots Senior Member

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    I'm not hating on wordpress, I'm using it too, and it's obviously very good to be used in most circumstances (but not all), because it's a "big" boy by now, developed, used and tested by lots of people.
    The directory is used by millions of people daily, but not all of them are using the same plugins you're using.

    The other thing is plugins (most of them) are free. If somebody wants to hack your website, all they need to do is check the source, see what plugin (and version) you're using, download it from the directory, put it on localhost, and test the sh*t out of it.
    While when it's custom built, nobody will know the source code, unless they're already in. They have to guess things, while with plugins, the source code is already in front of their face.

     
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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  13. Conor

    Conor Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    Maybe a better way of putting it is "WP shouldn't do everything". For example, I maintain the opinion that the forum plugins created for Wordpress, such as bbPress are just not as functional as dedicated forum software such as XenForo. To me, it all comes down to using the right tools for the job.

    Custom coding a run of the mill website from scratch is like building a house out of rocks you mined yourself, because prefabs can sometimes be unsafe.
     
  14. validseo

    validseo Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Wordpress is good for many purposes but it is not the tool that ends all other tools. That is a stupid claim. In my opinion the best platform is the one that makes the most $$$ for your business. ... and if your wordpress installation isn't making money, then yes, it too is a piece of shit.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  15. kahuna74

    kahuna74 Regular Member

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    IMO - Wordpress is great if you just want to get text on a page, and have an admin interface to make it all easy. If you need anything more complicated, like a webapp, wordpress is going to make that harder than something else will.
     
  16. Tunenchi

    Tunenchi Regular Member

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    I've had a good friendly Wordpress experience myself. However, I've always been hesitant to use it for my money site(s). I think it's it gives an overall look into your stuff that's good for work. Through plugins such as Yoast and many others, Wordpress does a great job. I still think custom codes have a place somewhere in security and competition.
     
  17. RightFootFanatic

    RightFootFanatic Regular Member

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    For me it's always - use the tool that gets the job done best. Also I like the paradigm of *nix - do one thing and do it good.
    I use WP for somethings, cms or full featured shop systems for other things or custom codes.

    Imho choosing your tool / software chaining is more complex than evangelist wars. From my experience in the last 15 years, most websites have some kind of underlying cms (let it be wp, joomla, agency custom build), and custom code is added with modules / plugin or whatever you wanna call it. Everything else is mostly not cost effective, at least for simple websites.

    The whole changes when you start building something complex as a searchengine, fb or whatever service that is provided by a website.
    But then you're already in an environment where your application / service is heavily decoupled.

    It's the same war like Win / Mac / *nix is superior than the other or whatever.
     
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  18. TWdesigns69

    TWdesigns69 Regular Member

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    I like to do it in HTML/CSS because I can edit every single thing about my site. I haven't really done that much in wp but i don't like that there are limits to editing it the way I want to.
     
  19. jazzc

    jazzc Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    You just have no idea about editing/implementing whatever you need in WP. That's not WP's (or any other platform's) problem.

    Now, to the original question - people complaining incessantly about X (where X is usually Javascript, WP, jQuery, VB etc) generally fall into these categories:

    * Wannabies who want to play the "hey, I'm cool" game

    * Burned out people from bad experiences with bad teams

    * Code-monkies

    * Butt-hurt people who see others make easier and more money with fewer academic records

    * Plain stupid people who don't posses project assessment and architecture skills

    Each tool has its place in the world of software and services.

    Source: Me. I am an extremely elitist engineer, working with bleeding edge toolsets, including languages that have less than 100 devs in total around the world. I also work with WP and all the "un-cool" things when that's the best choice for the problem/cost.
     
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  20. sizkor

    sizkor Newbie

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    This should not be a debate. Both (WP & custom-built) websites have their own use cases. If you're looking to throw up a scrappy blog or do some kind of basic website quickly, sure, WordPress is fine.

    For any kind of web application that requires complex features or needs to be able to scale without issues, using WordPress is pretty much a ticking time bomb. No highly reputable web application depends on the infrastructure of WordPress. It's just not reliable enough. That's why WP developers get paid less.