Does SEO cost money?

MKSKS said:

What I learned since then has worked great for me so, for me SEO is all about improving SEARCH RANKINGS as long as those rankings brings me traffic for my projects.

Competition does change the SEO costs just because for me SEO is all about improving SEARCH RANKINGS.

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Optimization is the process, improved search rankings is the typical primary goal of the process.

If you reached #1 for every keyword, would you consider SEO to be complete, because you can't improve your search rankings any further?

Of course you have to understand you can't hold those rankings for very long, because your website is surely not the best resource for every keyword.

Google will find the problem, and kick you off your rankings.

So you just sit and do nothing until your rankings fall off? Or do you continue looking for ways to optimize your website?

timothywcrane said:

I have heard that you can do SEO without money, but to have money is better. What do you think?

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I've never personally started a site with paid services, although ranking pages isn't where I spend the bulk of my time. Usually I'm only ranking side projects, and usually, it's fine for me to take forever to rank. I find my own keywords, write my own content, and pick up on all the little tricks found all over this message board. I have the added benefit of being a Python programmer, though, and I'm sure that's where I save the bulk of cash. Either way, starting out free takes me about six months of steady work just to get somewhere acceptable and self-sustaining.

Once it starts generating revenue or traffic I can convert, that's the point I start investing in services and scaling. If it were for a client or a project that needed a presence ASAP, there is no way I would try without paying one way or another. It's tedious and there are so many places where it seems like the effort isn't even close to the payoff. You're also missing out on a lot of data, and where a lot of people say "Content is king," I always believe "Data rules all." Going the free route, you lose a lot of tools to compare the data you gather server side with anything outside of fuzzy numbers. You get a generalization of what the numbers are, but since you don't know the exact numbers, you're working with flawed data, and at scale, that matters.

So, is it better to have money? Depends. I do it mostly for fun and learning, paying for services at any point at the beginning would defeat the purpose. Would paid SEO services and tools make it easier to rank faster with a better-optimized site? Provided I chose wisely, absolutely without a doubt.

To be honest, though, I think everyone should try a side project that is self optimized. If you know how to do it yourself, then you avoid getting scammed or mislead down the road. You can also recognize opportunities to make a decision whether or not to do part of something yourself depending on what the return on investment will be. For me, paying someone to scrape or automate would be at a loss more times than not because I can do it myself at cost. If you know all the steps in the SEO process, you can break it down on paper between how much a service costs vs. how much time it would take to do it yourself, and make a decision at the project level.

SocialManager said:

All of you get the quote from me because you have each said things which show either a fundamental misunderstanding of what SEO is, or you think the proverb time is money is meant to be taken literally. Money and time are not the same thing, they are not equal, they both have specific and different meanings. If something does not cost money, then it does not cost money. If I can walk up and take something without payment, that thing cost no money, regardless of the time it took me to walk up and take it.

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You know what's funny to me? You sure like to quote people and tell them they are wrong but when someone quotes you and tell YOU you are wrong you become all defensive and become a very nasty person that will not admit when he is wrong!

This whole mumbo jumbo money and time are 2 different things blah blah. Listen Mr know it all. In the business world Time= Money!! And therefor Money=Time, I know you don't understand the logic of it but you don't understand the logic of a lot of things.

Oh and save yourself a reply like "how this an attack" it's not, it's merely stating a fact.

SocialManager said:

Search engine optimization doesn't mean getting certain keywords to #1 of Google.

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SERP is part of SEO, What the Hell Are You Talking About?? But then again, how can I take a guy serious that says he can rank ANY keyword on the first page AND on the #1 spot without investing any money and yet does not have a single high searched volume KW anywhere near the first page?

SocialManager said:

This immediately is just wrong. First, ranking your website higher in search results for a particular keyword is not SEO

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Just when you thought you couldn't say dumber stuff you do, ranking a KW is PART of SEO.

SocialManager said:

Second, if you want to rank for a keyword, why do you need to check the difficulty?

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You still haven't figured it out huh it all has to do with reverse engineering, know the competitors metrics and planning a strategy but what do you know? This is your strategy hahaha:↓

SocialManager said:

Do your best work possible

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SocialManager said:

The idea that it is mandatory to do keyword research in order to do SEO, or even to rank for a keyword, is just insane to me.

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Well duh that's because you only understand the absolute basics. You are like a kid that is around at an adult birthday party, you have a little bit of knowledge about the world but not even near the experience of the adults but yet thinks he does

SocialManager said:

I don't claim to know "so much about SEO."

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Really? Yet you quote people non-stop to give them SEO advice, even tell people who have way more knowledge than you that they are full of shit because they didn't agree with what you're saying.

SocialManager said:

I don't know what else to say

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Good because most of what you say is wrong anyway.

SocialManager said:

Literally every SEO expert in the world agrees that on-page SEO alone will help you in achieving good rankings on search engines.

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Name a few established SEO experts that agree with you then! I'm pretty sure you don't even know one that agrees with the majority that comes out of your mouth. On-page SEO could achieve you good rankings yeah, if it's a KW that has very low competition and therefor you also need to know the difficulty so you can see if it's easy to rank or not!!

But if you have a high competitive KW you will NEVER, EVER, EVER rank on the first page with ONLY on-page SEO. Now I already know what your smug reply will be, it will be something like "Where did I say that you could rank on the first page with only On-page SEO" You imply it with your answers!! That is what you basically do, you give some smug answers where you imply something so when someone calls you out you could give a reply like I just mentioned.

Like you imply almost everything.

SocialManager said:

I am not giving you SEO advice. I am telling you factually what SEO is. What's your problem with the service I offer? Did you have a bad experience?

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You can't tell people what SEO is if you yourself don't understand it fully.

Going to conclude my replies to you and like the last post, you can reply but I'm going into discussion with you it will be just some more of being defensive, twist of words, where did I say this and that sort of replies, not worth more of my time really.

Stop quoting people with your (outrageous) SEO " knowledge" if you can't take it normally that people quote you and tell you you're are wrong about certain things.

Oh last thing about domain age, do I seriously have to deconstruct everything so you understand it. Domain age indeed contribute to SERP IF you haven't spammed it to death with no value direct links.

It sure is tiresome to explain things to someone that you already know A is not going to listen anyway B going to be offended and C LITERALLY twist everything you say.

But have a good day man

USA282 said:

Since you claim to know so much about SEO, I'm really curious to know how you do it. Can you list down your steps?

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Lol, he claims he can do things but when you ask for something to back up his words he will redirect the conversation to something you said, the majority of his SEO advice should be treated with skepticism, I will open a thread for people that want some real advice about SEO soon.

KHer0 said:

Too lazy to Quote.. You can try to sound smart a** as much you could, talk philosophy as much want, but the clear result, you answer doesn't benefit the OP sh***

The OP is clearly asking, Does he has to pay money to rank in search engines and make earn from it! If you can't understand this simple question, then you need immediate help!

And the simple Answer is : YES ! If you are entering the f**** SEO game, you need to pay money and a good chunk of it to see any result!

We are answering the OP, not preparing an academic master degree about the definition of SEO.

And the more you answer, the more clueless you appear.. it clearly shows you have never ranked a worthwhile keyword in your life.

So, to cut the crap and save both of our time, Why don't you share a screen shot of your ranking for a keyword which brings good traffic from google, earns you money, and didn't build backlinks for?

And if you are not doing SEO to rank higher (WTF!), then please enlighten us, why exactly are you doing SEO?

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Lol you are totally right and he replies to you like he does everyone else that criticizes him.

SocialManager said:

I am saying in his unique situation, if he wants to brag about how much money he made, he should at least upgrade his account.

Again, easy to say you made lots of money, more difficult to make a demonstration. Sure, you can just not want to upgrade your account and not want to support BlackHatWorld, but then you shouldn't come to BlackHatWorld and try to talk shit about how much money you make.



His question is do you NEED money to do SEO, or can you do it for free.

Your competition doesn't change whether SEO costs money or not. You are talking about SEARCH RANKINGS, not SEO.

SEO is not SEARCH RANKINGS.



I don't claim to be a social media guy or ORM, why are you just making shit up? I absolutely give tons of valuable points. I never danced around any question at all. Tell me what question I danced around and I will answer it directly. Yeah? Or you are just going to keep making shit up?

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Keep barking for me, I can go and on how you never answer directions directly. All I have seen you do is bark how everyone is wrong and you are correct.
I do technical SEO and my experience tells me that you have nothing to offer, to this guy. You could've stopped at "You can do SEO for Free", but no. You want to post-farm and get into arguements because that is what keeps you alive. Inject T and get our of your house, it's nice arguing over keyboards about shit you don't know but that shit doesn't fly on the real world.


You are on my ignore list because I can't be bloody bothered to look at your pathetic attempts to get attention when you have nothing of value.


To answer OP's question, yes you need money. If you want to get serious about SEO you HAVE to spend money one way or another, this might be services, tools or even information. Yes that's the cold hard truth and I don't care what that social guy says.

timothywcrane said:

I have heard that you can do SEO without money, but to have money is better. What do you think?

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Totally forgot to answer you, as you placed this in the blackhat section do you also meant BH SEO?

Well sure you can do it without money, will it achieve the same results if you would spend money? It's not going to happen. With money and BH I could literally get work done in a week that without money would take you a year and probably even longer.

So the real black and white answer is yes you could do it without money but in reality it wouldn't be worth the time it would take.

The sad truth is that external (linkbuilding) SEO has become VERY VERY expensive if you're trying to rank in the big money arenas. It used to be that I would laugh at a $2,000 link and go back to spam blasting with SeNuke, but these days the prices of "real" links on "legit" sites is sky high. So much so that I personally believe that blackhatting Google is less appealing that going after other targets such as FB, Reddit, and Instagram. But I digress... so to answer the OP question: Google SEO is expensive... but not all SEO is Google-based SEO.

-ThopHayt

ThopHayt said:

The sad truth is that external (linkbuilding) SEO has become VERY VERY expensive if you're trying to rank in the big money arenas. It used to be that I would laugh at a $2,000 link and go back to spam blasting with SeNuke, but these days the prices of "real" links on "legit" sites is sky high. So much so that I personally believe that blackhatting Google is less appealing that going after other targets such as FB, Reddit, and Instagram. But I digress... so to answer the OP question: Google SEO is expensive... but not all SEO is Google-based SEO.

-ThopHayt

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The current rate for a decent link is $100-200 if you aren't dealing with a middleman.

Social Chimp said:

Oh and save yourself a reply like "how this an attack" it's not, it's merely stating a fact.

SERP is part of SEO, What the Hell Are You Talking About?? But then again, how can I take a guy serious that says he can rank ANY keyword on the first page AND on the #1 spot without investing any money and yet does not have a single high searched volume KW anywhere near the first page?

Just when you thought you couldn't say dumber stuff you do, ranking a KW is PART of SEO.

You still haven't figured it out huh it all has to do with reverse engineering, know the competitors metrics and planning a strategy but what do you know? This is your strategy hahaha:↓

Well duh that's because you only understand the absolute basics. You are like a kid that is around at an adult birthday party, you have a little bit of knowledge about the world but not even near the experience of the adults but yet thinks he does

Really? Yet you quote people non-stop to give them SEO advice, even tell people who have way more knowledge than you that they are full of shit because they didn't agree with what you're saying.

Good because most of what you say is wrong anyway.

Name a few established SEO experts that agree with you then! I'm pretty sure you don't even know one that agrees with the majority that comes out of your mouth. On-page SEO could achieve you good rankings yeah, if it's a KW that has very low competition and therefor you also need to know the difficulty so you can see if it's easy to rank or not!!

But if you have a high competitive KW you will NEVER, EVER, EVER rank on the first page with ONLY on-page SEO. Now I already know what your smug reply will be, it will be something like "Where did I say that you could rank on the first page with only On-page SEO" You imply it with your answers!! That is what you basically do, you give some smug answers where you imply something so when someone calls you out you could give a reply like I just mentioned.

Like you imply almost everything.

You can't tell people what SEO is if you yourself don't understand it fully.

Going to conclude my replies to you and like the last post, you can reply but I'm going into discussion with you it will be just some more of being defensive, twist of words, where did I say this and that sort of replies, not worth more of my time really.

Stop quoting people with your (outrageous) SEO " knowledge" if you can't take it normally that people quote you and tell you you're are wrong about certain things.

Oh last thing about domain age, do I seriously have to deconstruct everything so you understand it. Domain age indeed contribute to SERP IF you haven't spammed it to death with no value direct links.

It sure is tiresome to explain things to someone that you already know A is not going to listen anyway B going to be offended and C LITERALLY twist everything you say.

Lol, he claims he can do things but when you ask for something to back up his words he will redirect the conversation to something you said, the majority of his SEO advice should be treated with skepticism, I will open a thread for people that want some real advice about SEO soon.

Lol you are totally right and he replies to you like he does everyone else that criticizes him.

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It's literally a fact that time is money? No, sorry, you don't know what a fact is. That's literally a proverb, not meant to be taken as factual, because it's literally not factual. Money is currency. Opportunity cost and money cost are not equal. Money cost has a constant value independent of an individual, opportunity cost fluctuates between individuals. If a person has no other opportunity they are missing out on by using their time to take action, then there is no cost. This is covered in Introduction to Economics courses which I suggest you take if you want to make ridiculous claims like this.

Tell you what, you give me your definition of what SEO means. Then we can go from there. Don't talk a bunch of shit, just tell me what you think SEO means. Make it clear and simple.

Let me ask you, what keyword research do you think Wikipedia articles have to do to rank so highly? I am very curious about this. You say that keyword research is mandatory for rankings, but I see Wikipedia articles ranking #1 all over the internet for keywords based on what individual users contribute to the wikis. Are you saying that every contributor is an SEO expert who is doing independent research and making a strategic plan to choose what keywords to rank for and checking on the competition? Or is it possible that the articles are ranking #1 with NO keyword research, and NO intentional SEO work done on the page besides on page SEO?

What most of you are clearly misunderstanding about SEO, is the word "optimization" means the ACTION or PROCESS, not the RESULT. You can define SEO 2 ways: 1) The ACTION OR PROCESS of making your website the best and most effective FOR search engines, and 2) The ACTION OR PROCESS of getting the best RESULTS from search engines.

https://www.google.com/search?q=does+SEO+cost+money&gl=us&pws=0&start=70

https://www.google.com/search?q="does+SEO+cost+money"&gl=us&pws=0

Only about 60 searches listed a month/ but $3-$11 CPC SEM
EXPERIENCE tells me that his type of KW actually CAN get multiple page flips,
do not expect that... just an INTEREST metric...
A few links manually done... Some comments in SB about "you have to see this SEO argument" &... (engagement matters)
viola.. traffic. Then SEO rise (or at least the dance)...


But this is not why I started this thread...

The arguments above hijacked another thread where someone asked about free hosting... thus unrelated...
You all followed... I controlled the traffic...

BHW has a search engine too... and a simple algo to thread place...
Did I monetize or hijack... no.

Struggling to the top of the SERPS can cause YOU $$$ or work...
Or somebody elses...
Welcome to BHW.


As for proof of monetization, or the need to be VIP. Ask the IRS... I make nothing... but do OK.

ThopHayt said:

The sad truth is that external (linkbuilding) SEO has become VERY VERY expensive if you're trying to rank in the big money arenas. But I digress... so to answer the OP question: Google SEO is expensive... but not all SEO is Google-based SEO.

-ThopHayt

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What is a "big money arena" and what do you define as "trying to rank?" Do you mean getting #1 for Buy Watches? Because I think porn is one of the biggest money arenas online, and there are thousands of porn tube sites with absolutely minimal link building done which rank very highly for keywords driving thousands of targeted visits a day. If you have great content and provide a great user experience, many of the top porn "authority" sites will link to you for free without you even asking. There are technical tricks that can be done to get your site picked up by porn scrapers/porn search engines. Beyond that, many of the top ranking porn websites are part of networks all working together (link for link) and classic traffic trading systems, where no money is exchanged.

Beyond all of that though, I don't understand this idea that many people seem to be stuck on, where the only way to get external links, is to build them yourself or pay for them. Do you guys genuinely believe that users don't naturally and organically link to good content? The "breaking news" industry is a good industry to research to understand how easy it is to get high-quality organic links from high authority websites. If you are the first to report on a breaking story and you have interviews with eyewitnesses, your story will get picked up by many other news sites who will link to you as the original source of the information.

TMZ is a great example of this. They don't rank highly for keywords because they have some SEO Guru doing keyword research and competition analysis or buying external links. They rank highly because they are linked to as the authority on many different subjects. If we look at their articles, most articles contain multiple links to inner pages, and that is SEO, and that is free to do.

timothywcrane said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=does+SEO+cost+money&gl=us&pws=0&start=70

https://www.google.com/search?q="does+SEO+cost+money"&gl=us&pws=0

Only about 60 searches listed a month/ but $3-$11 CPC SEM
EXPERIENCE tells me that his type of KW actually CAN get multiple page flips,
do not expect that... just an INTEREST metric...
A few links manually done... Some comments in SB about "you have to see this SEO argument" &... (engagement matters)
viola.. traffic. Then SEO rise (or at least the dance)...


But this is not why I started this thread...

The arguments above hijacked another thread where someone asked about free hosting... thus unrelated...
You all followed... I controlled the traffic...

BHW has a search engine too... and a simple algo to thread place...
Did I monetize or hijack... no.

Struggling to the top of the SERPS can cause YOU $$$ or work...
Or somebody elses...
Welcome to BHW.

As for proof of monetization, or the need to be VIP. Ask the IRS... I make nothing... but do OK.

Click to expand...

100% proof that you don't need keyword research or competition analysis or paid links to rank highly.

We dominate the rankings because this is an authority site with tons of high quality (mostly by me) original content that answers that matches the users search intent.

Don't forget the social/human aspect of SEO as well as the engine... People often check "cost or price" info by it's freshness..... and that keywords can bring you traffic by higher value terms if used with correct targeting. (like in the last month, shown below for the LSI "SEO cost" and even SEO cost)





want even more goodness...?

Go to free adword tool, plug in a $3 and a $100 Max CPC campaign on this and other LSI terms...
$2-$21 CPC all day long... or... LSI MFA in 2019? (just block the low cost advertisers in Adsense but take the LSI with higher CPC spenders)
(SEMRush free account or SEOQuake can help)
While I am not taking advantage of BHW DA in this case (other than their rankings) ... when done elsewhere you can siphon the traffic for your own purposes in many ways .

BTW, Google still loves blogger, if through an intermediary. (or your tumblr etc...)

I know this info will make nobody rich on its own, but I hope it sheds some light on WHAT I SEE as the value of SEO... I did not have to pay to rank or for a click. It may just cost me less than SEM or be free. Even with BH methods I still target longevity. If I wanted short term traffic that I have to pay for, I can get clicks for less than proxies legit on most networks...

Yes it does.. In one way or the other.. All you have to look for is whether the work is the worth the money you are spending.. So choose wisely

SEO is 100% free. You still have to pay for your hosting and domain. But if you know how to write engaging content, how to do keyword research, how to set up a Wordpress blog, and how to SEO optimize your website, then you don't have to pay. You only pay with your time.

SocialManager said:

It's literally a fact that time is money? No, sorry, you don't know what a fact is. That's literally a proverb, not meant to be taken as factual, because it's literally not factual.

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OR

literally: inf. - used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true.

So fking funny.

I think we established that SEO CAN cost money but doesn't always have to,

Omg.. this is still going on...!

People need to learn to stop feeding the Troll, and the best par, it costs no money

Of course, everyone might be capable of comprehending various aspects of SEO. The thing is that the study on SEO is something that has no completion and what determines your skill is the time you've spent on different case studies. So, when you don't have time to spend, you spend money.

Yes and no.
It depends on you...

If you do on page method good, Then give quality and unique content regularly, You don't need to spend a lot more money for your own site.
And of course, you have to do keyword research well. But you will get the result slowly.

Double face palm @SocialManager, quoting wikipedia as an example is so offbase I'd like you to start a new site in a niche that matters and see if you can outrank authority site without spending money.

I remember 10 years ago where you could literally do everything by hand, submitting everything manually even then you still have to pay for certain things to get the process going. Now SEO is super fucking hard and expensive and there is no chance of you ranking in a niche that matters without you paying for shit.

Goodluck to all anyways. To OP keep learning the trade. SEO now ain't for the faint hearted

cocococo said:

Double face palm @SocialManager, quoting wikipedia as an example is so offbase I'd like you to start a new site in a niche that matters and see if you can outrank authority site without spending money.

I remember 10 years ago where you could literally do everything by hand, submitting everything manually even then you still have to pay for certain things to get the process going. Now SEO is super fucking hard and expensive and there is no chance of you ranking in a niche that matters without you paying for shit.

Click to expand...

More guys coming to talk shit? Ok man, lets go.

Why is "quoting" wikipedia a problem? Because it shows you are wrong. It shows that content is king. It shows that anyone can make an authority site. Or give me some other reason why. Would you prefer I quote WebMD?

I start new sites in niches that matter and outrank authority sites without spending money every day. It's really not hard to outrank an authority site. I guess you don't know how ranking works at all. Porn doesn't matter? Online shopping doesn't matter? Because I outrank Amazon and Pornhub for many keywords. Waiting on your explanation.

What is stopping you from making YOUR website an authority site?
How is SEO "super fucking hard and expensive" specifically? This is just so vague.
Have you really never made a website where you ranked in a niche that matters just based on your content?