Do you have to work all day being a programmer?

HustleTong said:
Whether you work on it all day or not, it's one of the most sought after skillset
AI writing bots have slightly capped freelance writers
I don't think coding will get hit in a similar way.
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AI writers are junk compared to people. If you get AI generated text, you will spend half the time you would normally do. If you think it's good ux, this is wrong.

AI is good at generating ideas and getting rid of blocks writers encounter. Enabling to write much faster. No more.

Great copy is assembled. Not put from random ideas from the internet without any research and fact checking.
 
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Programmers spend the most time thinking about a problem and very little time actually coding. This goes double for things that they are doing for the first time. To non-programmers they often look lazy and unproductive, because there is simply nothing to do, until you know what needs to be done and how. There is a lot of waiting on answers in different online communities to hear feedback from other developers with more experience or from your more senior company coworkers. Sometimes after days of thinking, the best decisions are also to not do anything and move to the next problem.

If a programmer finds himself doing same stuff day in day out, they get bored fast and quit on their own or get replaced with a junior dev, because repetitive tasks that are still not automated are not really valued. Like with every field, there is a big spectrum of skills and even bigger in terms of motivation between programmers. Most suck, simply because every area of work has the same problem. Very few posses both knowledge and the motivation for a high quality and high productivity. Same goes for doctors, lawyers, internet marketers, everyone. Compared to the good ones, vast majority always sucks.

To become a good programmer, one need to obtain experiences from many big projects that should be as different from each other as possible. Their value comes from already knowing what bottlenecks to expect and they are able to anticipate future problems when they design software. In short: it is all about the wealth of experiences.

As a businessman/marketer, you don't need to also be a pro-programmer, but you better understand their work at a certain level, so that you know how to hire good ones and to understand when the problem really takes a lot of time and when they are just slacking off. That means you actually need to learn to code, just reading about it won't do, but you don't need to be very good at it.
 
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oldguyjoe said:
Programmers spend the most time thinking about a problem and very little time actually coding. This goes double for things that they are doing for the first time. To non-programmers they often look lazy and unproductive, because there is simply nothing to do, until you know what needs to be done and how. There is a lot of waiting on answers in different online communities to hear feedback from other developers with more experience or from your more senior company coworkers. Sometimes after days of thinking, the best decisions are also to not do anything and move to the next problem.

If a programmer finds himself doing same stuff day in day out, they get bored fast and quit on their own or get replaced with a junior dev, because repetitive tasks that are still not automated are not really valued. Like with every field, there is a big spectrum of skills and even bigger in terms of motivation between programmers. Most suck, simply because every area of work has the same problem. Very few posses both knowledge and the motivation for a high quality and high productivity. Same goes for doctors, lawyers, internet marketers, everyone. Compared to the good ones, vast majority always sucks.

To become a good programmer, one need to obtain experiences from many big projects that should be as different from each other as possible. Their value comes from already knowing what bottlenecks to expect and they are able to anticipate future problems when they design software. In short: it is all about the wealth of experiences.

As a businessman/marketer, you don't need to also be a pro-programmer, but you better understand their work at a certain level, so that you know how to hire good ones and to understand when the problem really takes a lot of time and when they are just slacking off. That means you actually need to learn to code, just reading about it won't do, but you don't need to be very good at it.
Click to expand...
Right. Can you state some other high levels skills as well other than programming? Thanks.
 
oldguyjoe said:
Programmers spend the most time thinking about a problem and very little time actually coding. This goes double for things that they are doing for the first time. To non-programmers they often look lazy and unproductive, because there is simply nothing to do, until you know what needs to be done and how. There is a lot of waiting on answers in different online communities to hear feedback from other developers with more experience or from your more senior company coworkers. Sometimes after days of thinking, the best decisions are also to not do anything and move to the next problem.

If a programmer finds himself doing same stuff day in day out, they get bored fast and quit on their own or get replaced with a junior dev, because repetitive tasks that are still not automated are not really valued. Like with every field, there is a big spectrum of skills and even bigger in terms of motivation between programmers. Most suck, simply because every area of work has the same problem. Very few posses both knowledge and the motivation for a high quality and high productivity. Same goes for doctors, lawyers, internet marketers, everyone. Compared to the good ones, vast majority always sucks.

To become a good programmer, one need to obtain experiences from many big projects that should be as different from each other as possible. Their value comes from already knowing what bottlenecks to expect and they are able to anticipate future problems when they design software. In short: it is all about the wealth of experiences.

As a businessman/marketer, you don't need to also be a pro-programmer, but you better understand their work at a certain level, so that you know how to hire good ones and to understand when the problem really takes a lot of time and when they are just slacking off. That means you actually need to learn to code, just reading about it won't do, but you don't need to be very good at it.
Click to expand...
Programmers spend 2 hours daily drinking coffee.
 
If you join at (facebook google ) and other slave corps you will work a lot,
Join a startup as a senior and you will work 10 hours per week
 
doctor12345 said:
If you join at (facebook google ) and other slave corps you will work a lot,
Join a startup as a senior and you will work 10 hours per week
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Join a startup as a junior and you will work 80 hours per week.
Senior developers are like 10% I guess.

It's at least 4 years of commercial experience. And even then you can be fucked because you've been working in a very limited area.

Good lock finding a job as a junior. I would rather eat shit for the rest of my life than try this.

Not to mention one-upmanship in these.

In other words, don't depend on your job.
 
crnack said:
Join a startup as a junior and you will work 80 hours per week.
Senior developers are like 10% I guess.

It's at least 4 years of commercial experience. And even then you can be fucked because you've been working in a very limited area.

Good lock finding a job as a junior. I would rather eat shit for the rest of my life than try this.

Not to mention one-upmanship in these.

In other words, don't depend on your job.
Click to expand...
-As an ex (googler, facebook) with 8+ years of exp I can tell you ,
10% seniors, is this a joke where do you search?

-Good luck finding a job as a junior. I would rather eat shit for the rest of my life than try this.
-is this another joke? In my current startup i work we hire below even entry-level sow we can teach them. cause we can't find devs

-It's at least 4 years of commercial experience. And even then you can be fucked because you've been working in a very limited area.
-trust me even if you know only the trends see (react, spring boot, jango etc, etc) without algorithm without any knowledge at all trust me you will find a good-paying job

=========================EDIT EDIT=========================
Github copilot will change how devs work in near future so try to find an entry level job again after 3-4 month
 
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Witzalron said:
Right. Can you state some other high levels skills as well other than programming? Thanks.
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This is more from the perspective of someone that had to become a little bit of everything and might not be suitable if you want a job in someone else's company, but here it goes: Mastering usage and optimization of several PPC ad platforms, proper conversion tracking and split testing, accounting, tax optimization, sales copywriting, public speaking, being able to prioritize critical tasks and manage your time, dealing with customers and employees so that the value they bring you is maximized over time.

You can't be good at everything. Pick a few areas that you are passionate about and find partners or employees to complement other areas. Finding and keeping good workers is probably the single hardest and most important skill you can develop.
 
doctor12345 said:
-As an ex (googler, facebook) with 8+ years of exp I can tell you ,
10% seniors, is this a joke where do you search?

-Good luck finding a job as a junior. I would rather eat shit for the rest of my life than try this.
-is this another joke? In my current startup i work we hire below even entry-level sow we can teach them. cause we can't find devs

-It's at least 4 years of commercial experience. And even then you can be fucked because you've been working in a very limited area.
-trust me even if you know only the trends see (react, spring boot, jango etc, etc) without algorithm without any knowledge at all trust me you will find a good paying job
Click to expand...
I don't even consider something without custom algorithms a full working solution.
Cause it doesn't make you anymore progressive than your competitors.
Not to mention you won't allow users of the software to get results.

Just think about outcomes: markov chains vs GPT-3.

Actually, for 3 projects I have been working on, all of them were made with ML in mind.
This is not possible to expect striving in this market in the next 5 years without preparing for it.

If you are in some area where there are filthy rich spenders and your company manages to find dozens of clients per month, then maybe you will be able to do django.

Ex google, ex facebook and advicing someone skipping advanced algorithms? What the f...

-Good luck finding a job as a junior. I would rather eat shit for the rest of my life than try this.
-is this another joke? In my current startup i work we hire below even entry-level sow we can teach them. cause we can't find devs
Click to expand...
Yes. This is how it's done. But that makes it impossible to work remotely in this case.
Communication and management of this type of venture remotely would be a complete nightmare.

-As an ex (googler, facebook) with 8+ years of exp I can tell you ,
10% seniors, is this a joke where do you search?
Click to expand...
So how many seniors are out there? I put a very low number that is my own estimate.
I think this number could be as low as 2 or even 1%.

-It's at least 4 years of commercial experience. And even then you can be fucked because you've been working in a very limited area.
-trust me even if you know only the trends see (react, spring boot, jango etc, etc) without algorithm without any knowledge at all trust me you will find a good-paying job
Click to expand...
Yes, if you have 4 yers of commercial experience in a given technology and can bugfix and update the whole codebase.
This is not the startup reality. The work is much more dynamic and many times people forget things such as basic as good practices.
Nobody is going to babysit some programmers if there are deals to be closed.
 
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oldguyjoe said:
Programmers spend the most time thinking about a problem and very little time actually coding. This goes double for things that they are doing for the first time. To non-programmers they often look lazy and unproductive, because there is simply nothing to do, until you know what needs to be done and how. There is a lot of waiting on answers in different online communities to hear feedback from other developers with more experience or from your more senior company coworkers. Sometimes after days of thinking, the best decisions are also to not do anything and move to the next problem.

If a programmer finds himself doing same stuff day in day out, they get bored fast and quit on their own or get replaced with a junior dev, because repetitive tasks that are still not automated are not really valued. Like with every field, there is a big spectrum of skills and even bigger in terms of motivation between programmers. Most suck, simply because every area of work has the same problem. Very few posses both knowledge and the motivation for a high quality and high productivity. Same goes for doctors, lawyers, internet marketers, everyone. Compared to the good ones, vast majority always sucks.

To become a good programmer, one need to obtain experiences from many big projects that should be as different from each other as possible. Their value comes from already knowing what bottlenecks to expect and they are able to anticipate future problems when they design software. In short: it is all about the wealth of experiences.

As a businessman/marketer, you don't need to also be a pro-programmer, but you better understand their work at a certain level, so that you know how to hire good ones and to understand when the problem really takes a lot of time and when they are just slacking off. That means you actually need to learn to code, just reading about it won't do, but you don't need to be very good at it.
Click to expand...

Holy fuck!
Excuse my swearing, but every single one of your posts hit the nail on the head.
 
crnack said:
I don't even consider something without custom algorithms a full working solution.
Cause it doesn't make you anymore progressive than your competitors.
Not to mention you won't allow users of the software to get results.

Just think about outcomes: markov chains vs GPT-3.

Actually, for 3 projects I have been working on, all of them were made with ML in mind.
This is not possible to expect striving in this market in the next 5 years without preparing for it.

If you are in some area where there are filthy spenders and your company manages to find dozens of clients per month, then maybe you will be able to do django.
Click to expand...
Again as one who spends my free time coding cause is what I love to do,
Code, frameworks, code quality, doesn't matter. Django is a mature and good framework with a lot of StackOverflow posts, I use happstack on my pet projects, but for the company I work, I use spring boot
I don't want to spend my weekend at the office cause of some weird shit bug with 0 answers on the internet.
What matters in this area is the marketing and how they sell,
At the end of the day if you optimize a rest call to response at 21ms instead of 50ms and it doesn't bring money to the company you just waste your time and effort
 
doctor12345 said:
Again as one who spends my free time coding cause is what I love to do,
Code, frameworks, code quality, doesn't matter. Django is a mature and good framework with a lot of StackOverflow posts, I use happstack on my pet projects, but for the company I work, I use spring boot
I don't want to spend my weekend at the office cause of some weird shit bug with 0 answers on the internet.
What matters in this area is the marketing and how they sell,
At the end of the day if you optimize a rest call to response at 21ms instead of 50ms and it doesn't bring money to the company you just waste your time and effort
Click to expand...
Certainly ML and advanced algorithms are not about optimizing response times.

If you are a hobbyst programmer, that's a different world since nobody is telling you how fast, how much, in what order, what should be the code quality.

In reality estimates are inaccurate, deadlines are too short and clients are frustrated.

Startup world? Yes, only if you are the boss and a cofounder. :)
 
crnack said:
So how many seniors are out there? I put a very low number that is my own estimate.
I think this number could be as low as 2 or even 1%.
Click to expand...
I know a guy who was hired with less than 2 years of formal computer science education (he never finished) into a team of 30, mostly react developers. He never worked with react before and I don't think he had any practical knowledge at all. Don't ask me how he even got hired. His starting salary was already above average in the country. About 2 years later he is "senior developer" and team was downsized to 15-ish. I don't know what he is paid now, probably around 2.5x the average salary. Don't compare these numbers too seriously with your local situation, because the upper cap around here is limited by a progressive tax-ceiling and nobody ever gets paid a lot in wages, except CEOs and even among them, mostly only in state owned companies where they don't give a fuck about "investors" (state->taxpayers).

The demand for developers of all kinds is just insane right now.
 
What do you say about hacking? What's the career in it? How it feels to do it without the motive to earn money?
 
Witzalron said:
What do you say about hacking? What's the career in it? How it feels to do it without the motive to earn money?
Click to expand...
Does not seem a good fit for you and Russia and Ukraine is basically full of powerhouse of very smart hackers.

IT can pay you low or high depending your skills or experiences.

Some do it for fun or to annoy other people or ideas they support others do it for money.
 
Witzalron said:
What do you say about hacking?
Click to expand...
Modern day I can only think of hacking the monetary system to get as much as you need for your ventures.
oldguyjoe said:
I know a guy who was hired with less than 2 years of formal computer science education (he never finished) into a team of 30, mostly react developers. He never worked with react before and I don't think he had any practical knowledge at all. Don't ask me how he even got hired. His starting salary was already above average in the country. About 2 years later he is "senior developer" and team was downsized to 15-ish. I don't know what he is paid now, probably around 2.5x the average salary. Don't compare these numbers too seriously with your local situation, because the upper cap around here is limited by a progressive tax-ceiling and nobody ever gets paid a lot in wages, except CEOs and even among them, mostly only in state owned companies where they don't' give a fuck about "investors" (state->taxpayers).

The demand for developers of all kinds is just insane right now.
Click to expand...
I know a guy who also makes 2.5x the average and drives the latest Audi. His boss is driving beamer.
He was hired and got it all in 15 months I guess.

Aren't we talking about the same person?
 
As a programmer you are the bitch of your employer so if your god employer says to dance you dance...else someone else more cheep will do your job perfectly well...i know people here are all irreplaceable but thats only in their mind, like the people who post they make money when they don't have anything to eat...
 
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