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Counterfeit lesser quality "myth"

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by Roparadise, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. Roparadise

    Roparadise BANNED BANNED

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    Are counterfeit products usually of lesser quality then officially licensed products,or is it just a government and manufacturing myth so people don't buy counterfeit products.

    I've heard that items such as polo shirts the unlicensed ones are usually made by the same people that used to work for the licensed ones, And even some former factories that used to work for them,start producing the items if they lose their contract. Which means the quality would be about the same as an officially licensed polo shirt for example.
     
  2. wowhaxor

    wowhaxor Executive VIP Premium Member

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    That is true, high quality replicas sometimes come out of the same factories ;)
     
  3. xpwizard

    xpwizard Junior Member

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    It's not really about the quality. It's the fact that the original company has to spend money on R&D and marketing usually costing in the millions.
    Where as replica's just have to find a similar method of producing the product, and then ride the wave of demand created by the original company.

    That's why a lot of governments/big companies are against it... If those replica based companies spent millions in R&D and marketing, then I'm sure they wouldn't mind as much. But since they are just ripping copyrighted products, it's not fair/equal.
     
  4. Roparadise

    Roparadise BANNED BANNED

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    I know that,but they shouldn't be starting bullshit that all replica products are of a lesser quality if they are made by the same factories usually.
     
  5. jazzc

    jazzc Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    There are various qualities of replicas. Some are high quality and expensive, others are low quality and cheap.
     
  6. xpwizard

    xpwizard Junior Member

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    It's easier to say "all" vs "85-90%", as then you have to describe ways to tell if the replica is good, etc.

    And yes while there are some really good quality ones that even use the original factory, there are more than a lot of sub par ones. (Some taking shortcuts and using plastic in child toys that isn't safe if the child puts it in their mouth)...
    There is no quality control agency for replicas, which is why it's easier to just associate them all as bad (saves time and money).

    I'm not against getting replicas myself (I have quite a few), but I know what to look for, etc... A lot of people just get ripped off.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  7. Nakota757

    Nakota757 Junior Member

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    Everything I've ordered from China that was a replica (DVDs, sunglasses, bicycle outfits, cell phones, tablet PCs etc.) didn't meet my expectations, and I could barely sell some of them to people on craigslist (some people could tell some things were fake).

    I'll just say I've never been impressed with the quality of any of the replicas I received.

    However, I do know you can get really good things made there, as a lot of legitimate companies outsource their work there (such as Apple).
     
  8. Narrator

    Narrator Power Member

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    Depends on the product and source. I've seen a lot of horrible replica products (namely watches)

    On the other hand, I order a lot of clothing (for myself) from dhgate and the quality is usually the same as originals.

    I wouldn't trust anything mechanical or electrical unless you can find an awesome source.

    Cheers!
     
  9. meatro

    meatro BANNED BANNED

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    ....So you're saying they should weed through the different manufacturers who neglect to take the time and money to become properly licensed and create a list of places where you can buy knockoff stuff that's up to quality of the original?

    That's fucking retarded. No offense.

    ...."The government is no longer prosecuting people who illegally share audio tracks and we'd like you to know that a high bit rate MP3 is easily of equal quality to the original recording. We've also published an editorial about how to create an audio CD from MP3s so easy that any moron 8 year old can do it. Furthermore, the best places to get these files are Demonoid, The Pirate Bay.. That's t-h-e-p-i----r-a-t-e....b-a-y. Dot org, not com."

    They do that because some places actually would rather carry officially licensed products than cheap, shitty knockoffs. I sell NFL, MLB and NCAA products. If you'd like to know what a headache IS dealing with licensed products, call up any one of those places and ask them what goes into just TELLING PEOPLE that you sell officially licensed products.

    "You sell officially licensed MLB stuff? Good deal, just remember, if you ever use the words 'Major League Baseball,' 'MLB' or our logo we'll fucking sue your face. Good luck selling our shit, bitch. Don't forget to give us your money. You have no idea how happy we are to have you peddling our stuff."

    How do you sell MLB products when you're not allowed to say MLB, Major League Baseball or use their logo? It's a bitch.

    They don't do it simply to misinform the public and make everybody think they HAVE to buy officially licensed gear. They do it for those, what are they called again? Oh yeah, copyrights, trademarks and patents. Stuff that like somebody already said, millions go into R&D for these items.

    You know how much those organizations are worth? Let's have a looksy... Dallas Cowboys $1.9B, Washington Redskins $1.6B, New England Patriots $1.4B, NY Giants $1.3B.

    You think they're not going to protect their asses and make sure that as little unlicensed garbage gets sold as possible? I was at the Dallas Cowboys training camp one year and watched Jerry Jones (the team owner) decline an autograph because the hat was not official. Something about that tells me he has very strong feelings about it.
     
  10. meatro

    meatro BANNED BANNED

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    You have to be very on top of the manufacturer if you're wanting to work with Chinese. You have to request a sample, give them 20 reasons why that sample is a piece of shit and request a better one.

    Then give them 10 reasons. Then 5, and you'll finally either end up with an acceptable product or a lost manufacturer.

    Once you've got the R&D done, you have to STAY on their asses. Or they'll get lazy and start cutting corners. Just be careful with who you deal with, they will casually disclose every bit of information about you and your products to your competitors without a second thought.

    We actually found another company knocking some of our Chinese products off and it turned out to be a competitor that we knew. We never would have known, but our manufacturer accidentally sent their invoice to us. We called them up and they just explained the whole situation like it was no big deal.

    Which it wouldn't have been, except the products were all R&D'd by us. It took us months in many cases to finally get the products right, and this motherfucker just happened to call the right factory looking for stuff I guess. He missed out on all the R&D, all the trials, all the flopped sales and got our very best shit because those sneaky fuckers have no business ethics.
     
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  11. Roparadise

    Roparadise BANNED BANNED

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    I was just saying they shouldn't be telling consumers that everything is of bad quality when clothing is usually the same quality. They should still be banned,but the rumors of lesser quality should stop.

    Major sports leagues have become assholes lately with will sue you for any fucking thing mentality I can understand suing for counterfeit products and stuff like that. but it gets stupid when The NFL was going to sue a church a few years ago for using the term "Superbowl Party" which is fucking stupid PR. And the reason so many websites have been taken down that broadcast NFL games lately. Is because about 2 years ago the NFL hired a full time Lobbyist in D.C.
     
  12. jazzc

    jazzc Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    There is no doubt that replicas hurt the original 's manufacturer. And if I was the manufacturer, I 'd probably be more pissed than meatro ;) He has every right to be mad at his competitor and his supplier.

    As a customer though, I do not really care. For example, I do not normally use a watch. When I go meet a high profile customer/contact, I must wear the proper clothes and accessories that support the image that I wish to project, because that 's what is the norm where I live. Would I give $15.000 for an expensive watch for this reason? Definitely not! I just got a high quality replica and I always get the wtf! stare :)

    Hint: High quality pen replicas can be ultra effective as gifts in some cases ;)
     
  13. Hungrydude32

    Hungrydude32 Newbie

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    Sunglasses are one area where the fake ones really suck because they are not UVA UVB protected, so your eyes are getting messed up over time when you think they are being protected. That happened to a guy I know who has a cataract from a surgery
     
  14. Isis

    Isis Junior Member

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    I don't know since I've never owned a replica that I know of. I do know that most girls would not be caught dead buying a knock - off. They have to shop at Coach at the Mall or it's nothing.

    I would love to see the market/bazar in Turkey where they have signs that say, "Genuine Name Brand Replicas." Genuine? LOL
     
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  15. meatro

    meatro BANNED BANNED

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    But that's what I'm saying, why would they stop saying that replicas are crap when you have to be super selective and careful when purchasing replicas or you WILL get crap? If 10% of the market is good, then 100% of it is bad. I wouldn't spend time or money discerning which of the companies knocking my products off are doing a good job, then saying, "you can get the real stuff from us, but if you go to Company A you'll get the exact same thing for 1/3 the price. Just don't go to Company B, they do horrible knockoffs.

    I also wouldn't stop saying that they're all horrible knockoffs. That's just going to encourage people to go to my lower priced, similar quality competitors. I'd do exactly what they do... "These guys suck and here's 100 things to look out for to spot a fake." (AKA, 100 reasons knockoffs are all garbage.)

    But it's true about sports leagues. The NCAA is not so bad, each school handles its own licensing (so do pro teams, but it's the MLB/NFL that are the sue-happy assholes), so there are some schools that are dicks. I hear Notre Dame is a tough one to land.

    I actually called the MLB, though and asked them what I would need to do to display "MLB," the logo and "Major League Baseball" on my site and they kept transferring me to the licensing department for new products. After explaining that I don't make products, I just retail them, that's when I found out that you simply can't use their image for retail... Why? Because they have their own shop. So fuck them, I use it anyways and I will until I get a C&D. :p

    Meh, I'm not mad about it. We just stopped going through that manufacturer and my competitors can all suck my dick whether they knock me off or not. No harder feelings. :)

    Also, as a customer I really don't care. But when it comes to carrying the products, I like having officially licensed stuff. It's a good reason for higher prices which means better profit margins (same price for official stuff, why not?), it's less complaints, tire kickers and returns. But I've purchased a lot of knockoff stuff knowingly, Jordan shorts, earrings, clothes, stuff like that.

    I have a nice Ecko Unltd. watch for looking spiffy and a Parker pen. Watch is like $125 and the pen is around $20 and I prefer it over other pens anyways. Parkers are the best for writing.
     
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  16. phluid

    phluid Power Member

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    I have purchased tons of replica products from clothing to electronics. I own high quality stuff and had mainly purchased them for comparison reasons, I eventually give them away or throw them in the trash. Out of more than 100 purchases not once have I ever seen a replica product that held up to the original unless the original was garbage to begin with. In my experience all replica products are complete garbage, however if you are unable to tell the difference as I can then I guess there is no need for you to pay the full amount for the real thing.
     
  17. jazzc

    jazzc Moderator Staff Member Moderator Jr. VIP

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    @phluid

    Depends on your sources. Finding a good source is both hard and very profitable.

    I know of a person in Russia who 's selling about 100 pieces of brand clothes (replica) per day (as authentic). He 's got the right source and he 's been in business for years.
     
  18. Expertpeon

    Expertpeon Elite Member

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    Just FYI, Apple spends <5% of their revenue on "R&D" and they're a tech company.
    I assume that a lot of replicas require "R&D" though, from my experience a one off replica tooling can be very very expensive even in China.

    There's a lot of political/legal philosophers that argue copyright/trademarks shouldn't exist (and I tend to agree)

    Years ago I found the factories for Sony Subwoofers (the actual place sony goes of course) and also one of the factories nike shoes are made out of in vietnam.
    They were totally willing to send the exact items to anyone, even with the trademark attached (though they weren't vocal about it! not like these are the ads for nike shoes you see on the baba)
    Yes, the product was the same quality (especially the subwoofers)
    Those were not the only subwoofer plants I found though, I pretty much found every single company's source for their products.

    If someone is buying a swiss watch for $100, they will, presumably know that it is not the same quality... also such people would never ever shell out $10k for one either, so it literally harms no one besides the hypothetical greed of the company.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  19. meatro

    meatro BANNED BANNED

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    Um. Does it matter the financial cost of R&D? Not IMO. Why? Because you didn't do it. Did you? So how could you even know what goes into it?

    You didn't think up a product, call up a manufacturer, send them a sketch, get back a sample, send them revisions, get back another sample, send more revisions, etc, until you had a marketable product, huh?

    Yeah, that whole process is what, a $2 phone call and some postage? Then there's the weeks and months of getting it right. How can you put a dollar amount on that?

    How much is spent on R&D is unrelated to the fact that you didn't do any of it. That's like saying, "Why is copying music illegal? It only costs 10 cents to burn a CD, how much are they REALLY out?" Plus, if you think about it, how much does it really cost for Eminem to write a song? He used to do it for free, right? WTF gives then?

    They're out all of the lost business as a result of you burning CDs and selling them yourself for $5.

    I'm also on the boat that MANY types of copyrights and trademarks infringe on people's creativity. How creative are you allowed to be if, "you can't do this... or this... or this either... and don't even think about doing this." However, when it comes to an actual material item, something that is a product of your creative thinking and physical ingenuity, that's a different world.
     
  20. Expertpeon

    Expertpeon Elite Member

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    Trust me, the real costs of R&D on a product like a subwoofer involves finding a basket and putting stock parts together, then branding the label.
    Hell custom castings (90% don't do this level of R&D mind you) costs a mere $500-1000.

    In the case of subwoofers, there's like 1 manufacturer in all of china that does part supplying.

    Nothing infringes upon creativity, I think HK has proven that economic viability and zero copyright/trademark protection is very feasible (more feasible than say, our current model, which has allowed large companies to pillage profits and move them overseas because of high US domestic taxes).
    I personally would rather "suffer" HKs 2.5% unemployment than the current US situation, partially supported and fueled by just the kind of "claim to creativity" you use here.
    Companies are not creative vehicles...

    There's nothing I'd love to see more than some large companies flounder and go bankrupt from replicas. Debeers being #1 on the list of companies I'd like to see ruined (maybe with CVD diamonds one day? we can only hope)