Charging clients for results vs fixed monthly charge

SamuelAdams said:
So there's no other way to say this. You're just lying. Straight-out, bald-faced, no-holds-barred lying. You're a lying liar. A liar that has made-up all of this in order to what? Look like the Big Man?

You can ONLY be lying, as what you are saying is so patently stupid that only a person that knows absolutely nothing about Local SEO could possibly say it. Anyone that knows anything at all about Local SEO understands that there is no way you can make money by dumping 40, 80 or 120 hours of time on off-site SEO, rank the site, THEN approach the customer and ask them to pay you. It's too stupid on too many levels to waste time addressing each point. Ask anyone that knows even the least amount about Local SEO and they'll say the same thing. All of what this lying liar has posted is wrong, he's a lying liar, and he doesn't know the 1st thing about Local SEO.

And he's a bad liar, besides that. So he doesn't even know how to lie.

Ignoring the MASSIVE contradiction between not having direct access to the business's website for onpage SEO, and not having the ability to do phone verification of the most important citations, and yet (somehow) STILL having the ability to do "Local SEO"... (Here's a retarded side track: Call up a business and say "Hello, I'm an anonymous salesperson and I'm doing something mysterious with your business online and you don't even know me. When Yahoo calls to verify your listing they are going to give you a code. When they do that, can you call me back at this number so I can do "mysterious things" with your online listing, and then once I'm done I'll call you up and try to get you to pay me for what I'm doing to your business online.")

It's retarded beyond my ability to express, and I'm REALLY GOOD at describing retards. This retarded lying liar is at least an order of magnitude beyond my ability to describe, which is really saying something. BHW should have the "World's Biggest Bullshitter Award" and I nominate this retard for a lifetime appointment.

Anyways, back on track, the other, other, OTHER thing about how ridiculously retardedly lying, lying, lying this whole mass of textual lying retardation is this notion that you can turn "OFF" the Local SEO. How retarded is that. Once you've done the 10 or 15 primary citations and the 50 or so secondary citations necessary to rank a local listing, what are you going to do if the prospective customer decides they are going to take the benefit of the 40, 80, 120 hours of time you've just dumped into their local seo (without the ability to do phone verification of their business using their business phone number), are you going to spend the SAME amount of time going back to all those local citations you've completed and ERASE them?

Retardation upon retardation, upon retardation.

Anyways, we all understand that IM in general, SEO in particular is infested with diseased examples of humanity, retarded people too stupid to be gainfully employed in a legitimate manner and the only real "skill" that they have is the ability to lie their ass off and create the illusion of knowing something that someone else might pay for. This is one malevolent example of such a diseased, useless and parasitic example of (sub) humanity right here. Take note of the indicators, as understanding them might save you from being scammed in the future. This retard is a CLASSIC. Too stupid to know how stupid he is.
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Oh dear. You're so angry. It appears that I've offended your vested interest in profiting from clients while you 'try' to get results.

If you bothered to read, interact, and discuss, you'd learn something.
You'd learn that it's possible to have sites that have perfect on-page but aren't ranked in the top 10 (imagine that!?).
You'd also learn that 'local seo' doesn't only mean ranking in the local pack (imagine, there are 10 other search results on the page, not just the local 3!).
You'd also learn that citations are not necessary to rank in organic serps.
You'd also learn the power of a killer PBN.
You'd also learn that 40, 80, 120 hours of 'work' (despite it taking far fewer hours than that) translates into a cost of just hundreds of dollars.
You'd also learn that some hundreds of dollars invested with a significant chance of converting to a 4 figure monthly revenue, in perpetuity, is a good business decision.
But I suspect you won't learn any of that. I suspect you already know everything.

It's also ironic that you're here throwing around the "lying lying liar lying lied liars" accusation, when it looks like you're the one doing something you want to keep hidden, by attempting to buy 'anonymous and untraceable hosting'.

But as myopic said - correcting a fool is a waste of time.
And my own view is that if someone wants to argue and throw around personal attacks in the first instance, rather than be a reasonable person and have a discussion, they are certainly a waste of time.
I don't intend to further engage with you, unless you wish to be a reasonable member of the community here at BHW.
 
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Google has its own algorithm that keep on changing and so the SEO methods and way of bringing traffic to a site/blog. Bringing out results with white hat methods usually may take time or no time. It depends.
I sell monthly package of $250 per location for LOCAL SEO and we can guarantee the results but can not commit. So it is not a good idea for NO fees no Rank model. Anyone believing in such model shall do SEO by him/her self :)
 
tony_d said:
Oh dear. You're so angry. It appears that I've offended your vested interest in profiting from clients while you 'try' to get results.
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When the retarded cannot win an argument based on the logical merits, agreed-upon definitions, etc... they address your emotional state, thereby reducing you from "what" to a "why". (retarded)People are supposed to forget about the "what" of what you just said and instead pay attention to the "how they think you said it" aspect, so as to find something to:

1) Claim to be insulted about, in an effort to...
2) Sway the listener that the person that just said that point back there is "bad" in some way.

It's about who they are, not what they said. The politics of personality over the open expression of ideas in an honest and earnest conversation. This person does not want the truth to come out, which is his ignorance, stupidity and retardation, in that order, and in equal measure.

As a favor to him, I choose to ignore the 66 2/3% of his identity that is NOT retarded, and instead address my comments towards the 33 1/3% of his identity that is clearly retarded. This is peer to peer online education, and it's done with a sledgehammer and a chisel, and you strike their marbled heads directly between the eyes.

I reiterate my previous comments. I challenge anyone to read them and find anything single thing in my words that was not less than 100% pure truth. I challenge anyone on the entire planet, in the entire human race to make a supportable argument that the person towards whom I directed those comments was currently engaged in highly scamming behavior and he, and anyone and everyone else that does business like him, needed to be taken down, and taken down early, and that people are now safer as a direct result of my truthful statements about both his innate, probably genetic retardation, along with his abject lack of character, nor anything even remotely resembling "human", as people that predate based upon other people's trust and use it as a weapon against them, are in every sense of the word dangerous predators that should thank each and every one of us, each and every day, that despite grave misgivings we still allow them to live free among us, and do not summarily incarcerate them for any one of dozens of compelling reasons, or (most effective) simply take them out to the edge of town and shoot them in the back of the head, and charge their mother's for the cost of the bullet, like what they do in China.

But we don't. We let them post on BHW, and then we expose them as an example of what evil looks like, as a necessary 1st step in learning how to avoid it. It's a Public Service I perform here, and thanks are in order.
 
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tony_d said:
You'd also learn that 40, 80, 120 hours of 'work' (despite it taking far fewer hours than that) translates into a cost of just hundreds of dollars.
You'd also learn that some hundreds of dollars invested with a significant chance of converting to a 4 figure monthly revenue, in perpetuity, is a good business decision.
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Thanks.

Outside of the obstacles SamuelAdams mentioned (e.g. access to the client/site), for this strategy to work, one has to be able to identify potential clients who have a high chance (>75%, IMHO) of converting.

Plus, they'd need to be clients who would be willing to spend >$1K/mo - this lends itself to filtering on certain industries, I imagine (not in this biz yet to know which clients are more likely, but there have been a couple recent threads on this on BHW).

As a noob I don't know enough to see how to identify / filter prospects that have a high chance from the others. In this situation, I could easily foresee spending multiples of hundreds without any wins, until I've gathered enough experience to "know".

Any tips?

I'll keep looking for relevant threads on BHW.
 
Charging for the Package instead of results, if they get rank but din't make any conversion. our job is to rank or promote on Search engines.

Kind Regards
 
tony_d said:
The only way to sell local SEO, if you actually want to get traction and maintain traction, is to work on a model of ranking the client first, THEN calling to introduce yourself. You must assume they want to keep the ranking - and you can then explain the charges to 'keep doing the work' to keep them ranked.

Contrary to the above posts - this is not 'offering a guarantee', it's just shifting all the risk over to your side. And, when you take all the risk, you can command a princely fee.

When we were in this game, I would arbitrarily set the fees depending on what I thought made sense based on the volume of new business our service was delivering. If there were 320 searches a month, and I delivered top 3 ranking, and each customer was spending $2k, it's not a far stretch to charge anywhere from $2-$5k/mth for that ranking. Under the conventional "lets try rank you" client model, that would be anywhere from 4-10 clients that you'd need to first find, and then hand hold, and then chase for payment.

My average billing for a top 3 ranking was >$1k a month, and the client would just keep paying in perpetuity because their phone keeps ringing, day in, day out.

Compare that to having to hand hold the nervous-Nellies, and having to re-sell them each month or two to keep the few hundred dollars a month coming in... I know which I'd rather do. I'll take the $1k+ a month from a delighted client, who sends me massive amounts of referral business.

You can imagine those referral conversations... under my model above, they go like this;

"Man... I've been SO busy this month, the phone just hasn't stopped ringing. This guy just ranked our website and said we only need to pay to keep it there - you should really give them a call",

vs the conventional model of SEO sales,

"So these guys say they're doing something... and I'm spending all this money each month, but who knows... I'll give it another month or two and then pull the pin if I don't get something from it. But hey - if you want to call them, go ahead, you might have better luck".

As with any business - it's ONLY about risk management, sales, and service delivery. If you take the risk, you get the reward on the back end, PLUS the reward of having clients flooding in to you, taking care of the sales part. It just doesn't make sense to me to do it any other way.

Of course you won't rank 100% of sites. Who cares - when in fact, your success rate could be as miserably low as 20% and you'd still make an absolute killing, and live a stress-free existence with clients who absolutely love you, and are true ambassadors, rather than 'annoying people who call each month expecting an update'.

A business is nothing more than a vehicle for monetizing value. So if your business is struggling, you must question the value that you offer the world.
Click to expand...

I would feel uncomfortable building links to a clients site without them knowing about it in the off chance they might try to sue me for messing with their site without permission.

But I agree with the rank first and then get paid model, take all the risks and get bigger rewards and way less hassle from pay first clients that have been screwed over a few times already by other SEO companies. So I would prefer to probably rank my own site, get my own local fake address verified listing, and then forward a few free calls to a potential client and then have the let's make a deal conversation if you want to keep getting all these great leads. If they don't want the leads, forward to the next business in that niche. I am sure somebody will want good leads that will give them a good ROI for their cost.

Pay for performance is way easier to sell, you get paid more and a lot less client hassles for sure.
 
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Danny1111 said:
Personally I would never do the No Rank No Fee model because it really is meaningless.

I actually would be concerned about companies that offer to work for free - it doesn't make sense.
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Found an article that corroborates this...
Code: 
http://www.onlinekickstart.com/seo-cost-and-price/
It seems like an easy pitch that can buffalo a client. As the article points out, just a couple of questions:
OnlineKickStart Article said:
Which search engines?
The guarantee typically does not state in which search engine so it could include Yahoo or Bing which provide very little traffic when compared to Google.

Which keywords are they targeting?
The agency offering the guarantee typically selects easy keywords that might have very little search volume or competition and are easy to rank for.

Why are they easy to rank for? Because they are completely irrelevant and no one else in their right minds is chasing them.
Some of the keyword phrases they include as evidence of the guarantee could have been ranked for by simply publishing a blog post with the keyword in the title.
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One could base the fee for results on an ROI measure (which is better aligned to what the client really wants), but then one is in the hands of the client to be honest and forthright about their side of the equation (conversions and revenue/profit). Not a balanced relationship.
 
Doing all that work in hopes of getting a client is a joke and tells me you really do NOT work with small local biz

You might call only to hear "gee thanks, we are selling the biz, and this is a big help, thanks bye"

You might hear - "no I am paying a guy for seo and he is the one getting results"

You might hear - "No my nephew has been working on my site and he got the results"

You might hear - "Gee thanks, I am so happy can I give you a pizza, haircut, mow your lawn, cause I am almost bankrupt but gee I would love to give you a free service"

NOT good info at all
 
Google has their special algorithms that change once in a while, and when they change all the SEO methods that worked might be useless. I don't like to pay for SEO packages because of that. I don't believe anyone who claims he has the ultimate solution or ultimate method for making my content stand out organically. Just my humble opinion though
 
freebiequeen1999 said:
Doing all that work in hopes of getting a client is a joke and tells me you really do NOT work with small local biz You might call only to hear "gee thanks, we are selling the biz, and this is a big help, thanks bye" You might hear - "no I am paying a guy for seo and he is the one getting results" You might hear - "No my nephew has been working on my site and he got the results" You might hear - "Gee thanks, I am so happy can I give you a pizza, haircut, mow your lawn, cause I am almost bankrupt but gee I would love to give you a free service" NOT good info at all
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Yep, gotta pick your clients well. Also, all the above is a key reason why this shouldn't be a handshake deal.
 
SaharWayne said:
Google has their special algorithms that change once in a while, and when they change all the SEO methods that worked might be useless. I don't like to pay for SEO packages because of that. I don't believe anyone who claims he has the ultimate solution or ultimate method for making my content stand out organically. Just my humble opinion though
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Kind of an argument to not even bother doing anything. If a vendor "guarantees top position", it might be possible, but looking around in BHW, it is pretty clear that BH techniques would be used in most of those cases, and that would eventually end poorly.

There are some posts here in BHW and on the net that talk about how to hire SEO service and protect yourself from a scam. For example, Ghoast updated this for 2015:
Code: 
http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackhat-seo/white-hat-seo/707600-how-buy-search-engine-optimization-your-business-2015-a.html#post7256794
 
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Avid Learner said:
Kind of an argument to not even bother doing anything. If a vendor "guarantees top position", it might be possible, but looking around in BHW, it is pretty clear that BH techniques would be used in most of those cases, and that would eventually end poorly.

There are some posts here in BHW and on the net that talk about how to hire SEO service and protect yourself from a scam. For example, Ghoast updated this for 2015:
Code: 
http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackhat-seo/white-hat-seo/707600-how-buy-search-engine-optimization-your-business-2015-a.html#post7256794
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And recently there's this:
Code: 
http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackhat-seo/white-hat-seo/768577-important-questions-you-need-ask-your-search-engine-optimization-company-before-hiring-them.html
 
Wouldn't it be ideal to grab your own Domain and craft a beautiful, professional website for that niche? Seems like a smart thing to do as it gives you the control in both the rankings/ownership and in getting the sale.

I don't see why you should rank someone elses website seeing as the top priority is to get those searches and visitors to take action and ring up the biz owners. Destroys the possibility of them countering you with claims of them being responsible for their rankings and ETC. Using a tracking phone number means if one Dentist doesn't buy, remove it and forward the calls to a different Dentist in the area and approach them until one jumps on board and pays your monthly fee to keep the calls coming. Seeing as Google likes to be Capricious, you should not do 234 on the dotted line with contracts as you can't be 100% SURE you can keep the top ranking and phone calls coming in.

Would love to hear more from Tony D as his insights are priceless. You mentioned that you are not in this area any longer? "when we were in this game", is there a reason you are still not in this market? I could presume you have moved on to other and more bigger projects, though it'd be nice to know your thoughts on implementing these tactics in today's turf. I want to go in strong with at least 5 sites at once in different cities and locations to give it a solid go.

Cheers
 
hateandbreak said:
Wouldn't it be ideal to grab your own Domain and craft a beautiful, professional website for that niche? Seems like a smart thing to do as it gives you the control in both the rankings/ownership and in getting the sale.

I don't see why you should rank someone elses website seeing as the top priority is to get those searches and visitors to take action and ring up the biz owners.
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Sure, but that is a whole different business model...building lead generation process and selling those leads. BTB (IIRC) was (still is?) involved in that, so no doubt, can be very successful for some niches / industries.

Depends on what business someone wants to be in. I could imagine that it would be harder to organically grow one's business with clients that only buy leads. Also, how does one expand the lead gen within a niche/geo...feed two or more a once? How does that funnel work?

A lead gen model also risks commoditization, unless you can dominate all the 1st page on G for that niche/geo.

The model the OP is using builds a trusted service provider relationship with a client which is stickier, and a stronger opportunity to grow organically, IMHO.

That said, don't see why not a person could do both approaches to drive revenue.
 
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Have you asked your client what they think is fair? I think that sometimes this is helpful to determine what should be done as the two of you can work together.
 
I will charge only if I had claimed to rank on the first page and for that I will rank it on the first with all the methods what I know.
 
I would charge per month, then work ass off to rank the client
when there's results and ROI is clearly seen, I'll give him option to scale, giving us both more benefits + profits!
 
It depends on whether you wanna actually learn lead generation or not. If you don't care about lead gen, like a lot of marketers, then charge monthly.

If you actually give a crap about helping businesses grow, making yourself an indispensable assset, and making great money, then charge for performance.

Just look at the big picture. Most local marketers I know charge monthly. Because most local marketers suck at what they do. They can barely find clients for themselves nevermind a real brick and mortar business. And here's what's sad about it. Lead generation isn't rocket science. It's most definitely a skill that requires experience. But too many marketers lack that experience.

When I see guys on WaFo selling cookie cutter packages, approaching every business with the same bullshit offer.... that screams to me someone who has no idea what they're doing.

All businesses require a unique approach. That's why really smart local marketers tend to carve out just a few industries. They don't target or accept clients from every and any industry. Rich investors don't do this. So a rich marketer shouldn't do it.

Yet still, so many marketers will take ANY CLIENT they can get their greasy hands on.

Consider this. I own a brick & mortar biz with my brother. I also do lead gen on the side.

If I had to estimate... I've probably put 2500-3000 hours just into building and optimizing our **1** local funnel. For our main business. That's working 40 hours a week every week for like 1 1/2 years. On 1 LOCAL FUNNEL FOR 1 BUSINESS. Now I didn't work that way. I did that much work over like 3 1/2 years, not 1 1/2. But the point is, I've put in THOUSANDS of hours working on just 1 local funnel.

TO BUILD A SUSTAINABLE, SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS.

Not to generate 1-2 calls a week. Which most marketers can't even do for their clients. But to have a continuous everyday stream of calls. So our business grew from $100,000 year to $300,000 yr and now $720,00 yr.

That's what I consider real marketing.

To the guys selling monthly plans to anything more than 10 businesses a month, chances are, they are ruining those companies.

A marketer has to TAKE CONTROL over a businesses MARKETING to successfully grow a business.

What happens in real life with most marketers I know, they don't TAKE CONTROL over ANYTHING. They do their shitty SEO, shitty outsourced citations, shitty newsletters, shitty everything. They don't DIG DEEP into an industry or their clients companies.

They don't convey real mastery. This makes businesses weary about handing over FULL CREATIVE CONTROL in the 1st place. So you wind up with 2 idiots who don't know what they're doing.... leading each other in circles.

Anything successful you can think of has a leader. TV shows have "showrunners". You never see their names on tv but without them tv wouldn't exist. They are above the executive producers of any show.

A real marketer needs to be like a showrunner. Even if you're not running that persons business, you are RUNNING THE SHOW. The "show" being the marketing.

When you work this way you don't need 50+ clients. If you're really good all you need is 1.

The way it works is simple. Now that you're not capped at some bs monthly fee, you can drive that business to the stratosphere and make A LOT of money doing it. And if you're doing your job right, you'll make more than the manager of the company. Because the owner can fire the manager but when you're driving the lead force, the oxygen, firing you means they die.

Let me put it simple ok. Why do I rarely.... if ever hear the phrase "Chief Marketing Officer" on this forum?

Why do marketers on this forum never talk about this?

Do we need a thread? Just about what CMO's do?

Or WHY it's so important for marketers to approach businesses like a CMO? Like an OFFICER. A CHIEF. An AUTHORITY. You are the MARKETING JEDI. If someone has something to debate with you, fine. But if their idea is dumb, like most are, they know the minute you say "no" it's time for them to STFU.

All CMO's get paid on performance. You perform well and blow up a companies sales, you blow up your LIFE. Better house, better car, better wife. Perform shitty, your pay gets cut, pressure's on, eventually you get replaced. You can't be the CMO for Gieco and say some dumb shit like, "I'm sorry, it's gonna take a few more months for your SEO to kick in" or " sorry, I'm not quite sure why your website isn't converting. But we can both pose a random guess and not do shit about it".

Everything in life is based on performance.
 
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BreaknBrix said:
It depends on whether you wanna actually learn lead generation or not. If you don't care about lead gen, like a lot of marketers, then charge monthly.

If you actually give a crap about helping businesses grow, making yourself an indispensable assset, and making great money, then charge for performance....

All businesses require a unique approach. That's why really smart local marketers tend to carve out just a few industries. They don't target or accept clients from every and any industry. ...

Consider this. I own a brick & mortar biz with my brother. I also do lead gen on the side....

A marketer has to TAKE CONTROL over a businesses MARKETING to successfully grow a business.

What happens in real life with most marketers ... don't DIG DEEP into an industry or their clients companies.... They don't convey real mastery....

A real marketer needs to be like a showrunner. Even if you're not running that persons business, you are RUNNING THE SHOW. The "show" being the marketing.

When you work this way you don't need 50+ clients. If you're really good all you need is 1....

...if you're doing your job right, you'll make more than the manager of the company. Because the owner can fire the manager but when you're driving the lead force, the oxygen, firing you means they die....

Everything in life is based on performance.
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Thanks, some great points. For instance, makes tons of sense to narrow focus on certain industries. And, yes, performance is always being judged, even on a monthly fee, if the client is not getting more value out of it than they are paying, they'll drop you like a hot potato

For some context, is your one funnel for your existing b&m business, or for a single client, separate from/not related to your existing business? Is it in the same industry? If it is for multiple clients, how many also give you showrunner status? Do you also provide marketing services to this and other clients beyond SEO type services? Is it all online marketing service?

Not looking for anything too revealing here... Just trying to understand this better, and think about how to fold this approach and scope, as a noob, into starting a local marketing business for myself.

Cannot argue with success! ;)
 
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