Can I Be A Skeptic For A Minute?

<rant>

There seems to be 3 types of people on any "make money online" forum. Those who can count and those that cant. - ok forgive me.


The 3 types of Internet marketing people I refer to are the mods/admins and other top guys/gals who have been doing this for years who dont give any secrets (rightly so) and basically just hang out on the forum to chat and talk about a topic they love and make tons of money doing. They take action and don't waste time. They keep trying things until they find something that works and then NEVER reveal what tool they used or what system they used to make their millions.

The 2nd group are the people who make money just by selling tools or links or "systems". Thats it.. they dont use them.. EVER. They just sell them. All the programs to "make money online" by just using this or that plugin, this or that spam tool. However, they never use those tools themselves.. just make tons of money selling tools. WHY? Because IMO they dont work. Not that they dont do what they say software wise, but because THEY DONT MAKE ANYONE money. I am not talking beer money here. I am talking enough to make a living in USA type money.

What I dont get about this group is if I paid for someone to code software or even took time to code it myself and it was SO GREAT.. why would I sell it? Why wouldnt I just use my Amazon affiliate script or BlackBox Spammer or Fcebook,twatter script tool to make millions?


The 3rd group represents 98% of all internet marketing forums. The downloaders, the question askers, the people who actually buy all the software that the 2nd group sells hoping to make tons of money like the 2nd group promises. However, that never materializes. They just beg, plead and grovel for more free stuff, downloads and spam tools. They spend more time on the forums than anyone else but make a very small portion of the income comparatively.


Lesson I should have learned a long time ago via my days as a stock/options/futures trader.....

Those who can do, do. Those who can't teach.

Those who know the secrets don't tell them. Those who don't know are selling their "guru" status to all the sheeple. Be it trading systems, internet marketing systems or other assorted get rich quick type schemes.

There are the movie makers, producers, directors and actors and then there are the seeders and leechers.

I am so damn tired of the latest tricks, schemes, spam "techniques". If the latest coolest software programs actually worked to make tons of cash that they would actually be released to the public? Do you really believe that the guys/gals with clickbank books and systems are going to show you how to get rich for $39.95?

Most people do my friend, most people do. I for one am sick of it.

</rant>

wallofiron said:

<rant>
...
Those who can do, do. Those who can't teach.
...
</rant>

Click to expand...

I've never regretted any business decision I made because I always stick to this simple principle. Add to that the 'nothing is as bad as it seems' maxim and you'll see that the rest is just fluff.

you must be in that 3rd group

cool story, bro

Well, lets see here... You are missing some people here... It may only be a small group of people, but its still some people...

What about the people that aren't really good at making money just by themselves? They form lovely little conglomerations to make some livable cash money...

Also, what about the people that think that online marketing is a fun little hobby, but its not their full time job, because they like working for "the man"?

We are well, in the first group a little, but generally, we give stuff away, and sell some things, that are just little tools to help out... Can't make money at it, just make money easier with them.... The main thing on this site, or on any other site like this, is well, most of the super new people, just don't take action ever...

We have handed out fishing poles before, but yet still see people starving...

Amanda and I definitely have different ideas on your rant, she mostly agrees with you, but thinks that well, not everyone just does one thing on here... You can't just make money doing one thing.... The people on group two, may not just sell the product, but also use it in another enterprise that they do...

I think that you are being cynical and bitter... It has taken me a long time to learn what I am doing, as I am still getting all software oriented and stuff, but I still do work and make some money. And I help a lot of people who ask, for free... Not for a paycheck..

Take no insult from what I say, just adding my two cents in here...

Jason

I've got a lot to say in response to this thread, but I'll try and keep it as short as possible.

Group 1: They make a lot of money online. What you've outlined for group one is pretty much all true. It's really just about working your @ss off until you find what works. That IS the secret.

Group 2: This is probably what I have to comment most on. There is a large overlap between group 1 & group 2. There are a TON of IM'ers in Group 1 that make their money doing what you've defined Group 2'ers as doing.

You see, the people in Group 2 can't make a ton of money selling "X" unless they have the knowledge, know-how and skills of a real IM'er. I mean, somebody who doesn't know a thing about internet marketing can make/create whatever product/software/tool they want but they won't make a dime selling it...because they don't have a clue how to go about marketing something on the internet.

The tools that are sold work, but what is sad is that so many people confuse "a tool that works" with "a tool that makes money". A tool that makes money, doesn't exist on the web. There are WH automation tools, BH automation tools, WH tricks, BH tricks and the list goes on and on...but not a single one of them will EVER make you a dime. It's the implementation that creates monetization.

One of the easiest things to prove to you that the tools sold by group 2'ers work, is to throw your logic right back at you.

Group 1'ers buy the products sold by Group 2'ers! Now why would a group 1'er who knows how to make money on the web (and are quite good at it) buy a tool that doesn't work from a group 2'er? They wouldn't!

What creates all the confusion, is the difference in the number of people who know that things work and the number of people convinced that nothing works.

It's a case of who is shouting louder. There are WAY more people on internet that don't have a clue how to make money and have bought every damn thing under the sun that promised to make them millions, and still don't have a nickel to show for it. Get enough of these people together, and you'll soon hear nothing except "nothing works and the tools sold are all just there to take your money"

Well said, CrazyFlx. Very nicely put.

@ OP - I'm as much a cynic as anyone, but I like to think I can "do" and "teach" at the same time. I make good money (no secrets as to where most of my income comes from) yet I'm still happy to share my "secrets" whether it be free on BHW or as an info-product for the exact reason Crazy pointed out: the only real secret is hard work. And 99% of people are lazy.

crazyflx said:

I've got a lot to say in response to this thread, but I'll try and keep it as short as possible.

Group 1: They make a lot of money online. What you've outlined for group one is pretty much all true. It's really just about working your @ss off until you find what works. That IS the secret.

Group 2: This is probably what I have to comment most on. There is a large overlap between group 1 & group 2. There are a TON of IM'ers in Group 1 that make their money doing what you've defined Group 2'ers as doing.

You see, the people in Group 2 can't make a ton of money selling "X" unless they have the knowledge, know-how and skills of a real IM'er. I mean, somebody who doesn't know a thing about internet marketing can make/create whatever product/software/tool they want but they won't make a dime selling it...because they don't have a clue how to go about marketing something on the internet.

The tools that are sold work, but what is sad is that so many people confuse "a tool that works" with "a tool that makes money". A tool that makes money, doesn't exist on the web. There are WH automation tools, BH automation tools, WH tricks, BH tricks and the list goes on and on...but not a single one of them will EVER make you a dime. It's the implementation that creates monetization.

One of the easiest things to prove to you that the tools sold by group 2'ers work, is to throw your logic right back at you.

Group 1'ers buy the products sold by Group 2'ers! Now why would a group 1'er who knows how to make money on the web (and are quite good at it) buy a tool that doesn't work from a group 2'er? They wouldn't!

What creates all the confusion, is the difference in the number of people who know that things work and the number of people convinced that nothing works.

It's a case of who is shouting louder. There are WAY more people on internet that don't have a clue how to make money and have bought every damn thing under the sun that promised to make them millions, and still don't have a nickel to show for it. Get enough of these people together, and you'll soon hear nothing except "nothing works and the tools sold are all just there to take your money"

Click to expand...

Well I don't think group 1 buys the tools aimed at the masses. Rather they order highly customized tools that suit their specific method. Just like you had your suggestion scraper made to your specs.

For example I don't want to use any generic software because I don't care for domains under pr6 and I don't know of any software that let's me tell it to not download the source of any pages with pr5 or lower in order to drop my link. It saves me a lot of time and I can even make my mobile to build far fewer but a lot more valuable links.

Also right now I find the Indian market (if raped on a massive scale compared to what works here) to be very profitable because there is so little competition. And I've never been to Asia. But there are not many tools that support Eastern Asian codepages or Unicode so group2's tools were again of no help.

I agree however that most their tools work IF one has enough useful traffic. But traffic being the hardest part of IM means that if you can figure out how to get it, you are also smart enough to not need any pdfs telling you what to do with that traffic.

masteraffmarket said:

you must be in that 3rd group

Click to expand...

that made me lol bro

eh, some thoughts

group 1 - these people actually do give out great advice from their own experiences. it's just that the people in group 1 refuse to answer the retarded questions typically asked by group 3, and the people in group 3 lack the mindset and experience to truly understand what group 1 is saying. its not that the "secrets" aren't being told, it's that most of the time the people in group 3 aren't ready to hear them, in a way.

group 2 - the question of "if it works why are you selling it" has been asked a million times. one possible reason is that maybe the method is only capable of making $100 per day and isn't easily saturated. so the seller using it by himself only makes... $100 per day, not millions of dollars. so he decides to sell the method for a little extra cash.

group 3 - almost all of us started here at some point. try not to be too hard on them

also, bhw has an entire range of users. generalizing and labeling everyone into 3 categories isn't really that useful.

Some good points in your post, man. The only part where I disagree is that it cannot be made money online to make a living in USA (Let's say 3-5K per month, right?)

The part where I totally agree is that most people doing good money right now don't share their secrets.

For example, I was reading the thread with the 7 methods to make money, and I never used those methods and I did money in the past. Not anymore bacause the business where I was, died, and I'm looking for a new method or business right now, lots of experimenting trying to find something new. Have been experimenting and investing for last year and still nothing new.

But nowadays it's quite hard to find any realiable info online. It was not in 2003, to say a year.

Nowadays LOTS of competition and the money is less for everyone. So I can realize almost nobody share their secrets. Even doing reverse engineering is extremely hard, because everyone hides all his info, because they know someone will do reverse eng.

Competition is getting smarter and smarter and it's harder every day to get a slice of the pie.

dizzspaceteam said:

We have handed out fishing poles before, but yet still see people starving...

Click to expand...

Excellent point there and very true.

One thing a lot of people miss is that you must take action or you will always be standing there wondering why don't I make any money.

You have to take action to make money.

"Those who can...do...those who can't...teach!"

Really?

Tell that to successful IM'ers like:

• Frank Kern
• Mike Filsaime
• Russell Brunson
• John Reese

Here's a PRIME EXAMPLE of someone being a better 'teacher' then a student:

Does the name Butch Harmon ring a bell?
Here's a former PGA professional who never really had that much success on the PGA tour...He won one (1) tournament in 71'...

HOWEVER

He was such a "student of the game"...(of course, his father was Claude Harmon, so that sorta helped)....that after his playing career, he got into being a 'teacher'. During the 70s, Butch lived in Morocco for awhile, even serving as the golf instructor to King Hassan II, then later helped Greg Norman become the #1 golfer in the world during the early 90's.

After that, Butch then hooked up with golf superstar Tiger Woods and served as his golf instructor for about 11 years or so. (From 93' to 04')..and we all know how many majors Tiger won during that span! (8)

Since he's been a golf instructor, Butch Harmon has gone on to win numerous awards, including Golf Digest's "Instructor of the Year" from 03' to Present!

I see no reason why this type of success in the 'real world', can't be duplicated in the 'online world'...Matter of fact, it is...look at the people who had little to no success w/the traditional online marketing, but once the took their 'knowledge' to offline brick-n-mortar business, started seeing success!

Matter of fact, I've got a friend who set up a gaming server last year for a not-so-well known MMORPG game and I heard him talking one day to another friend who was the 'tech brains' behind everything talking about how to get more enrollments. After he was done w/the call, I asked him a few questions about the game, such as why people play it, what other similar games they would play and a few other common sense questions and once we were done talking, I hopped on my pc and started doing a little digging. I found that the other games these folks also played had a pretty big following and a few well known 'forums'. I dug deeper into the sub-culture and found that these forums offered 'advertising', so I sent a few emails and within a few days, I got responses and OMG..the cost to advertise was really, REALLY CHEAP! Like $50 for 30-days for a top listing banner that appeared on EVERY SINGLE PAGE of these forums and we're talking some good size forums!

Make a long story short, I told my friend about the advertising and told him why he should do it, so he got a few other friends (other players who he made 'mods' on the forum) to help cover the small investment and w/in the first 7 or 10 days, his server gained over 25 new enrollments. (Players had to pay a small monthly fee to ensure there were not 'bots' being used by other players and then had to pay for 'tokens', which they could then use to buy things w/in the game!

Bottom line: Was I some legendary marketing guru who was making 5 or even 6 Figures a month? NO! But having been a 'student' of how the game of "affiliate marketing" is played, I simply shared my knowledge with a friend...one that helped him and a few others, enjoy some nice spendable cash!

So, to say "Those who can..do...and those who can't...teach" is, IMHO, complete and utter BULLSHIT!


NOW

Regarding the remark as to why someone would sell their secrets to someone else for any amount of money?

Here are my opinions on the matter:

NOTE: For the sake of simplicity, let's just refer to a 'strategy' helping someone increase their monthly income, providing a well founded R.O.I.

Opinion 1: The strategy in question isn't nothing new, but rather one person's 'out of the box' way of thinking on an already existing but seldom technique. Their implementation of said strategy has allowed them to enjoy a very significant return each and every month for say 6 months.

HOWEVER

They know that at some point, someone is bound to notice it, figure it out, reverse engineer it and then start making the strategy a little less effective. Thus, to make as much money NOW before the well dries up, they sell it!

Opinion 2: Again, the strategy isn't NEW, but since there's not much of anything really NEW in the world of IM, this person simply has taken something 'old', improved on it by adding videos, audios, bonuses, etc,.etc., and decides to sell it to not only make a bit more money, which they know full well they'll be able to do, but also realizes the many benefits of having even more people on their LIST, which would be something the buyers would have to do in order to get a chance at buying said product.

Opinion 3: Marketer takes an already existing strategy, but one that is for the most part, on the way "out", but decides to milk the money chain one more time. Again, they sprinkle on a new catchy product name, throw some pixy dust on a kick-ass sales page, open the traffic flood gates by promoting it heavy to their own JV list and just wait for the masses of 'newbies' to come knocking on their door! Again, the benefits are IMMEDIATE CASH and an even larger LIST to sell to somewhere down the line.

Opinion 4: The strategy is new, but so damn dead simple, that eventually someone's going to catch on about it, thus before the competition increases, they sell it..but only after they've not so much perfected it but have realized that it only makes "X" amount of money and while there's no real concern of market saturation, realize that even more money could be made by packaging it and selling it!

I'm sure I could come up with a few more options, but these are the ones that came to mind immediately as I was reading your original post.

H2oBoy said:

"Those who can...do...those who can't...teach!"

Really?

Tell that to successful IM'ers like:

• Frank Kern
• Mike Filsaime
• Russell Brunson
• John Reese

Click to expand...

Yeah, really.

Frank Kern admitted himself that he had no success in online marketing until he started teaching people how to make money online.

There's exceptions but the sad truth is, there's no guaranteed blueprint to making money. You either "get it" or you don't.

After years of both successes and failures, I cringe when I see people asking stupid questions that can be solved by a 10 second Google search. You don't build a business by being spoon-fed or by buying a 'magic bullet' and expecting it to work. Unfortunately that 98% of the population will keep looking for it.

That's why pickup books and weight-loss books are so popular. People don't realize that by a) eating healthy every day and b) exercising every day you'll get fit or that by SURPRISE! talking to girls every day you get better at it... they want to be spoon-fed, they want to experience that day-dream and emotional satisfaction of imagining what their life will be like if they follow through the latest $500k/mo method.

Whatever. Life goes on.

Edit: You do have valid points in your post. You take someone who has 30,000 daily uniques who doesn't know how to monetize them and you got a winner. Or you take a hustler and give him pointers and you'll have another winner. These two examples fall in the first type of the OP, not the 98% of the crowd.

I know that a lot of people don't want to give out their secrets. But I have gotten a lot of information on this website. Right now, I'm impressed/overwhelmed by the wealth of information that is out there.