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Black Hat vs Fraud: What's the Difference?

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by overl00rd, Nov 6, 2009.

  1. overl00rd

    overl00rd Junior Member

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    Not in your wettest dream...
    Sometimes I keep reading these posts that screamed 'this is fraud!' when some new money-making method come up. While the guy who posted that is doing a black hat thingy such as posting fake job leads in CL to drive traffic to his pay-per-lead offers.

    There was a quite popular thread about posting fake job leads and nobody shouted 'fraud!' on it (it is a fraud, go ask Merriam-Webster), while there's this one thread about covering your adsense ad with a video image and it's considered black hat.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy BHW forum so very much. I mean, this forum actually prints money to members who know what they're doing ;). This is the best money making forum in my 2 years journey of IM so far.

    Yes I agree, that BH is one of the kick-ass way to make truckload of money in a short term and you should invest or *cough* launder *cough* your money into WH stuff to make it long term....

    Morals aside, this question still haunts me...

    Is there a fine line between BH vs fraud?

    ...or, what makes a method 'black hat' or what can be stamped as 'fraud'?

    (Daamn, I sound like Carrie Bradshaw :D)

    Peace, y'all.
     
  2. pewep

    pewep Power Member

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    It's the difference between 18 year old barely legal, dress-up, unethical porn and 16 year old CP
     
  3. electric

    electric Junior Member Premium Member

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    Blackhat: "tricking" a user to enter their CC
    Fraud: using a VCC to fill out your own leads
     
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  4. neo

    neo Power Member

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    LOL! Well said.

    Blackhat is tricking the person without hurting him for our benefit. The job method gives hope to the job seekers and we make money. But it doesn't promise the job seekers anything. On other hand if you promise the job and ask him to pay $50 registration fees and run away with it, it is fraud.

    BlackHatWorld was originally meant for SEO. See the tag line of BHW. It still says Black Hat SEO forum. In blackhat SEO, you don't follow the rules set by google and think outside the box to manipulate the SERPS. It is not fraud.
     
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  5. Geetfaux

    Geetfaux Super Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Very well said, I was going to post something similar but a lot of people know the CL "marketers" try to justify their actions by things they don't even understand fully.
     
  6. pewep

    pewep Power Member

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    Just don't do anything exceedingly annoying....or cover your tracks well ;)
     
  7. xziler8r

    xziler8r Regular Member

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    amen, preach it brotha!
     
  8. overl00rd

    overl00rd Junior Member

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    Not in your wettest dream...
    That pretty much added my point of this whole thread. CL marketers who shouted 'fraud!' when they found out someone filling out their own PPL offers.

    Guys c'mon, this is a BH forum fuhgudssake... No need to point fingers to someone as fraudster cuz we're all making a sh!tload of munny in here thanks to BHW, and cuz...

    Like it or not, we're on the same boat here :D
     
  9. boobleay

    boobleay Newbie

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    The first can also be fraud depending on what you represent to the user.
     
  10. tony-raymondo

    tony-raymondo Junior Member

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    Make no mistake about it

    we're all grifters


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASyVNfEjs-g

    "The Grifter's got an irresistable urge to be the guy that's wise."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi63rXnuWbw

    "You can manipulate consumers into wanting, and therefore buying your products. It - it's a game. Somebody asked me Lucy, 'is that ethical? You're essentially manipulating these children.' Well - is it ethical? Yeah, I don't know. But our role at Initiative is to move products. And if we know that you move products with a certain creative execution placed in a certain type of media vehicle, then we've done our job."
     
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  11. sam12six

    sam12six Newbie

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    White-Collar, I agree with every damned word you wrote.

    Part of the problem with discussing where the line gets crossed from blackhat to fraud is the fact that blackhat doesn't really have a definition so everyone forms their own definition of it.

    For myself, I look at blackhat as manipulating things to take advantage of how a given system is set up, giving yourself an unfair advantage. This would be doing something like setting up a blogfarm to give yourself extra linkjuice in the serps.

    I personally don't include anything that involves tricking anybody. Whatever you're promoting, getting someone to sign up for it by misrepresenting what they'll be getting is fraud. You've defrauded the customer by making him or her pay (even if the payment is only time) for something when they're expecting something else. You've defrauded the CPA network by tricking them into paying you for useless leads (it's like making an agreement to sell you bags of gold, but instead I sell you bags of shit).

    Now, depending on the individual's definition, this fraud could still be blackhat but they should be smart enough and honest enough (at least with themselves) to understand and admit they are committing fraud.

    One of the most important things I think the OP posted was the need to recycle some of your profit into whitehat ventures to build a long-term income. The advantage of blackhat is that you can get a quicker return and be banking money much quicker than most whitehat methods. That said, the drawback of blackhat is that income dries up as you stop posting ads, ewhoring, or whatever it is you're doing.

    In other words, if you want long-term blackhat income, you're going to be putting in long-term effort to keep the income going.

    Anyway, I'm surprised and happy to see that this thread didn't inspire 15 dozen posts of people saying, "This is blackhat world!! If you're that much of a do-gooder pussy, leave. Good luck flipping burgers!!".

    I'm hoping that means that a big portion of our community here is learning that someone discussing this isn't passing judgement and condemning you for how you choose to make income, but rather is just batting around ideas...
     
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  12. howdoyou

    howdoyou Regular Member

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    video #2 is the tits....
    subliminal advertising subliminal advertising subliminal advertising DRINK COKE subliminal advertising subliminal advertising
     
  13. xtroublex

    xtroublex Registered Member

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    Some of you amuse me. "tricking" users = conning, lying, fraud, it's all the same. I guess if you consider using VCC to fill in your own referrals fraud but causing someone who is not interested in what your selling to enter theirs is ok then you have a twisted view on reality.

    Cheating is cheating. I do it and I don't try to kid myself that it is anything more or less than what it is. I guess some folks can't be honest with themselves so whatever you have to call it to make yourself feel better, go ahead!
     
  14. mrsix

    mrsix Power Member

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    Fraud is a crime. blackhat tactics are not, it just bends the rules to a hair from breaking
     
  15. xtroublex

    xtroublex Registered Member

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    So if you knowingly and deliberately violate the TOS of a CPA your not defrauding the CPA?
     
  16. liquidrage

    liquidrage Junior Member

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    It's only Fraud if you are sitting on a metal bed using a toilette with no seat and staring at bars while reading this thread. Life is all about finding new and creative ways to take money out of other peoples pockets. Look at a $300 pair of shoes made by a 12 yr old kid that's being paid 25 cents a day to make them...That's fraud
     
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  17. freqout

    freqout Regular Member

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    Who cares? The money is green in either form.
     
  18. starhorse

    starhorse Newbie

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    The difference between blackhat and fraud is with the first you can sleep at home with the second you can sleep in jail.It´s all about yourself not crossing the line
     
  19. ClownBaby

    ClownBaby Power Member

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    people like to throw words around. blackhat marketting is NOT fraud in any way.
     
  20. xtroublex

    xtroublex Registered Member

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    roflmfao!!!