Black Hat CPA is... white hat???

yao1994 · May 18, 2009

I've been thinking about people get pissed off when they see a black hat guys ripping off networks with incentives and stuff easily while them whiteys work like slaves to earn $10.

But I actually think black hat CPA is actually kinda... white hat?!!??

Think about it. Would you rather rip off honest (but dumb) people (except for fat crying moms who try to loss weight with some NEW OPRAH SENSATION) who are looking for help for problems (such as health, education, etc) which are very important to them...

...or would you rather rip off assholes who allow and encourage the promotion of companies and people who scam from the clueless and desperate people who are looking for a real solution?

I think you have an answer. I think that we should all leave the dumb (but mostly honest) people alone.

You agree?

INCENTIVES FOR LIFE

magpie2419 · May 18, 2009

I suppose you're right, but it has never really just a case of being black or white, there are also a million shades of grey. A lot of the stuff that you see posted here, it's not black or white. Just one of the shades of grey in between. In the end you have to do is your conscience tells you.

yao1994 · May 18, 2009

yea but giving a fake review on some acai subscription that you cant cancel isnt so greyyyyy...

TheGreyHatter · May 18, 2009

It's not a matter of what color the marketing is, its how your conversion quality looks to the network.

yao1994 · May 19, 2009

im now saying whether white or black hat converts better im just saying

we should all leave the dumb people alone

madinaz · May 19, 2009

yao1994 said:
im now saying whether white or black hat converts better im just saying

we should all leave the dumb people alone

Do that and 2/3 of your CPA offers are gone. Ringtones, Acai, or just about anything that offers a trial and has reoccuring billing. Now if your talking about strait out ripping them off then I agree that maybe in that case we should leave dumb people alone.

minute80 · May 19, 2009

I would say that all secrets in life are already exposed to each of us (and dumb people as well). I can summarize 100% efficient weight loss program in one sentence (feel free to repackage and sell

):

Eat less calories than you spend.

People are always looking for silver bullets (sometimes myself included, eventough with each day less): there are none. There is only difference in effect: negative, neutral, positive. So, IMHO if people are stupid enough to pay even 1 cent for something that can be achieved with two hours of research or similar methods (like thinking), then I think it is our "obligation" to take their money, to teach them a lesson. Actually it is scientific facts that learning is more effective when done through experiencing something, rather than just reading it (applies for BHing as well!).

yao1994 · May 19, 2009

minute80 said:
I would say that all secrets in life are already exposed to each of us (and dumb people as well). I can summarize 100% efficient weight loss program in one sentence (feel free to repackage and sell ):

Eat less calories than you spend.

People are always looking for silver bullets (sometimes myself included, eventough with each day less): there are none. There is only difference in effect: negative, neutral, positive. So, IMHO if people are stupid enough to pay even 1 cent for something that can be achieved with two hours of research or similar methods (like thinking), then I think it is our "obligation" to take their money, to teach them a lesson. Actually it is scientific facts that learning is more effective when done through experiencing something, rather than just reading it (applies for BHing as well!).

well said but who are we to teach people lessons.

plus when they are reading an article to learn and we put a adsense ad right between the paragraphs and say that

"it will be faster if u try this $50 acai bullshit drink!*

*subscriptions may not be canceled"

we learn through our mistakes but that doesn't mean we should be the ones that are makin them fail first to "teach them a lesson"

think about that

Whisker · May 19, 2009

I see what you are saying, but the industry in general is driven on profit margins and not consumer satisfaction so the idea of becoming "robin hood" will be shortlived. The real issue with this is that you run a higher risk of not being paid by detectable publishing flaws. The merchant can track your subid has a terrible retention rate, no activity after certain page submission, referer, customer complaints tracked by sale id, etc. This is just the reality.

yao1994 said:
I've been thinking about people get pissed off when they see a black hat guys ripping off networks with incentives and stuff easily while them whiteys work like slaves to earn $10.

But I actually think black hat CPA is actually kinda... white hat?!!??

Think about it. Would you rather rip off honest (but dumb) people (except for fat crying moms who try to loss weight with some NEW OPRAH SENSATION) who are looking for help for problems (such as health, education, etc) which are very important to them...

...or would you rather rip off assholes who allow and encourage the promotion of companies and people who scam from the clueless and desperate people who are looking for a real solution?

I think you have an answer. I think that we should all leave the dumb (but mostly honest) people alone.

You agree?

INCENTIVES FOR LIFE

Hyperion · May 19, 2009

In the end everybody will choose their own sake above others, so profit above costumer satisfaction as whiskerbiscuit stated before. A noble cause but a foolish idea, this is real life

yao1994 · May 19, 2009

WhiskerBiscuit said:
I see what you are saying, but the industry in general is driven on profit margins and not consumer satisfaction so the idea of becoming "robin hood" will be shortlived. The real issue with this is that you run a higher risk of not being paid by detectable publishing flaws. The merchant can track your subid has a terrible retention rate, no activity after certain page submission, referer, customer complaints tracked by sale id, etc. This is just the reality.

trackin affiliates isnt a problem since there are many techniques to hiding.

but seriously dont u guys feel bad sometimes about bullshitin to a financially poor guy about how some some "ultimate technique that makes $29476.24 dollars a day! for just $37" and most likely making them give up on the only chance in their lives to have a good life?

yao1994 · May 19, 2009

which leads me to... are there even any non-scam offers?

only one i can think of is hostgator (actually a good product) but their commissions are... yea...

Whisker · May 19, 2009

yao1994 said:
trackin affiliates isnt a problem since there are many techniques to hiding.

Blanking or spoofing your affiliate link does not stop a merchant from seeing that your traffic sucks. An affiliate id from your network link is passed so they identify you as CD1500 or whatever your id is. So they see "oh 95% of sales from CD1500 have been cancelled" or "100 leads from CD1500 didn't respond to any phone calls" or "Ten leads from CD1500 were asking about the free jessica alba nipple slip pics they get once they fill out our insurance form".

yao1994 said:
which leads me to... are there even any non-scam offers?

only one i can think of is hostgator (actually a good product) but their commissions are... yea...

There are thousands of reputable companies who market their products and services online. If you are looking to promote only BBB accredited stuff or something go to commission junction or linkshare. Hostgator oversells the shit out of their shared servers so I don't know how they are the one good product you could think of.

yao1994 · May 19, 2009

Blanking or spoofing your affiliate link does not stop a merchant from seeing that your traffic sucks. An affiliate id from your network link is passed so they identify you as CD1500 or whatever your id is. So they see "oh 95% of sales from CD1500 have been cancelled" or "100 leads from CD1500 didn't respond to any phone calls" or "Ten leads from CD1500 were asking about the free jessica alba nipple slip pics they get once they fill out our insurance form".

but if they check their affiliates with that kind of precision... most of us bhers would be losing their shirts on CPA.

There are thousands of reputable companies who market their products and services online. If you are looking to promote only BBB accredited stuff or something go to commission junction or linkshare. Hostgator oversells the shit out of their shared servers so I don't know how they are the one good product you could think of.

sure there are many... but their commissions are like what.... %25 off skype (and u spend like 1cent for a minute?) prob take u two years to get $100 of one skype refer.

hostgator does oversell their servers but in these days which hosting company isnt... plus nearly all of their customers love it (and their customer support work for me like slaves)

im sure many people do incentives for CPA and make $$$

i think this "CPA has telepathy powers!" crap is just a myth. u just have to be over semi-dumb to get away with it. even if they do ban ur ass (and its probably just one of their random banning sprees not them findin out ur black hat) im sure u can make a lot before its gone and u can just make another one!

gurujh · May 19, 2009

yao1994 said:
I've been thinking about people get pissed off when they see a black hat guys ripping off networks with incentives and stuff easily while them whiteys work like slaves to earn $10.

But I actually think black hat CPA is actually kinda... white hat?!!??

Think about it. Would you rather rip off honest (but dumb) people (except for fat crying moms who try to loss weight with some NEW OPRAH SENSATION) who are looking for help for problems (such as health, education, etc) which are very important to them...

...or would you rather rip off assholes who allow and encourage the promotion of companies and people who scam from the clueless and desperate people who are looking for a real solution?

I think you have an answer. I think that we should all leave the dumb (but mostly honest) people alone.

You agree?

INCENTIVES FOR LIFE

My personal strategy is not to rip off anyone, but to try and supply potential prospects with solutions to their problems. Just because your using black hat methods does not mean you have to use them to take advantage of people.

For example, you find a offer that would be well suited for someone trying to sell their car, but the network doesn't allow social network traffic. But what if that social network traffic contains a group of people who are perfect for that offer? Isn't the bottom line for the network to have their ad convert?

I know lots of times the networks get slammed from people sending them fake responses to offers, which is why they dont want this traffic or that. I just tend to use the blackhat methods to bring people who really need things with offers that are matched to their needs, regardless of the traffic source.

For me, I have found this to be very effective. So effective that my AM will call me and ask me where in the hell are you getting your leads from, because the advertiser is very happy with the results. But that's just my opinion.

Oh, and of course I do not tell them where my traffic is really from. I tell them PPC and SEO. I have plenty of SEO pages and sites to back it up too.

Whisker · May 19, 2009

gurujh said:
I just tend to use the blackhat methods to bring people who really need things with offers that are matched to their needs, regardless of the traffic source.

For me, I have found this to be very effective. So effective that my AM will call me and ask me where in the hell are you getting your leads from, because the advertiser is very happy with the results.

This is higher level thinking and marketing.

yao1994 said:
i think this "CPA has telepathy powers!" crap is just a myth. u just have to be over semi-dumb to get away with it. even if they do ban ur ass (and its probably just one of their random banning sprees not them findin out ur black hat) im sure u can make a lot before its gone and u can just make another one!

This is not.

twinglet · May 19, 2009

interresting impressions on black hat. i think as long as it dont lead into prison, it doesnt really matter. its like love or war, every weapon is allowed to make money. not only to make money, but to reach your goals. everywhere people are trying to earn some bugs to make a living, and mst of them would do everything for it. in some old ebook blackhat was descibed as "the secrets kept under black hats" thats where it started. i think todays term would be "violating the tos of your affiliate" well as long as your affil and your are making money i guess they wont care. but if you rip them off, or do illegal stuff, would it still be called blackhat? i think blackhat is just every dirty secret way of making legal money. and whitehat is just online buisness

minute80 · May 20, 2009

yao1994 said:
well said but who are we to teach people lessons.

plus when they are reading an article to learn and we put a adsense ad right between the paragraphs and say that

"it will be faster if u try this $50 acai bullshit drink!*

*subscriptions may not be canceled"

we learn through our mistakes but that doesn't mean we should be the ones that are makin them fail first to "teach them a lesson"

think about that

yao, I don't know you country of residence, but there is a signficant difference between how things function in States and in my country. For example, when you buy coffee in USA you get all those little warning that this is a hot coffee, to be careful etc. If you buy coffee in my country, and you get burned, you are an idiot. You are not a victim, but an idiot. And I agree with that point of view. I have a feeling that with all those regulations, people stop to notice and investigate, and are easily scammed. I made number of comments on this forum as well, that if somebody is selling "Make 30k per day" method for 37 USD, his ebook is crap - I am not selling this ebooks, but I am definitely not feeling sorry for someone who fell for that.
One more thing to notice: with BHing offers to people, you are actually behaving like one more shit filer! Who normal would buy acai berry advertised (or forcefully redirect to) on Facebook, than explained on shitty landing page, which after you continue is replaced with yet another web site on totally different domain? So, we are actually doing a good thing, since losers have one more chance to think before they buy a crap that says they will lose 50 pounds in 2 and a half days, or get caught in world of neverending subscriptions

yao1994 · May 20, 2009

minute80 said:
yao, I don't know you country of residence, but there is a signficant difference between how things function in States and in my country. For example, when you buy coffee in USA you get all those little warning that this is a hot coffee, to be careful etc. If you buy coffee in my country, and you get burned, you are an idiot. You are not a victim, but an idiot. And I agree with that point of view. I have a feeling that with all those regulations, people stop to notice and investigate, and are easily scammed. I made number of comments on this forum as well, that if somebody is selling "Make 30k per day" method for 37 USD, his ebook is crap - I am not selling this ebooks, but I am definitely not feeling sorry for someone who fell for that.
One more thing to notice: with BHing offers to people, you are actually behaving like one more shit filer! Who normal would buy acai berry advertised (or forcefully redirect to) on Facebook, than explained on shitty landing page, which after you continue is replaced with yet another web site on totally different domain? So, we are actually doing a good thing, since losers have one more chance to think before they buy a crap that says they will lose 50 pounds in 2 and a half days, or get caught in world of neverending subscriptions

i think everyone that lies to people in order to trick them into buying some shit for $47 is using "im teaching them a lesson" as an excuse. seriously, ur not their parents so you dont really have any rights to "teach them a lesson". a murderer could come in ur house, kill all your family and say "this is a lesson to show u should get a security system".

Originally Posted by gurujh View Post
I just tend to use the blackhat methods to bring people who really need things with offers that are matched to their needs, regardless of the traffic source.

For me, I have found this to be very effective. So effective that my AM will call me and ask me where in the hell are you getting your leads from, because the advertiser is very happy with the results.

sure its effective. that obvious. im not saying black hat techniques are bad (in fact i love em)

its just that sellin bullshit stuff with lies is bad

so is the auto product that u promoted good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yao1994 View Post
i think this "CPA has telepathy powers!" crap is just a myth. u just have to be over semi-dumb to get away with it. even if they do ban ur ass (and its probably just one of their random banning sprees not them findin out ur black hat) im sure u can make a lot before its gone and u can just make another one!
This is not.

This is an excuse to please your ego.

man cmon admit it... ur ripping people off...

so the real question is: do u care about ripping people off?

yao1994 · May 20, 2009

also im not being anti-promotion

im just trying to find gather the opinions on certain aspects of IM so new people and people like us can see what we are really doing

Black Hat CPA is... white hat???

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