Are machines and humans really different?

zzARzz

zzARzz

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So I was laid on the couch this afternoon and started thinking about it. What really makes the difference between humans and robots? Aren't both of them kind of algorithms? I mean, the human doesn't really make decisions he only think he really does because he thinks conscious. But isn't consciousness an emergence of the complexity of our brain? Well, to be honest, I don't really know about it but I don't find any other possible solution to it. If it is so, that means that it's only matter of time before we create robots with algorithms with the same complexity of our brain that will, therefore, become self-conscious.
And if so, will they be living beings? If not, what are living being? I mean, we will be both constituted of dead parts that were assembled to create a functional pattern that will be able to interact with his environment.

Well, I might be totally wrong because I lack knowledge about this subject but I'm trying to seek for answers on this topic that interests me.
 
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The questions of the future my friend. I strongly believe in the fact that we'll need to enchant our brains with technology to keep up with robots to not become useless. And with that will probably do a lot more things. So yeah we'll become artificial humans or whatever definition you want to give it.
See it as evolution, morally a lot of people are afraid for changes as this, but you can't stop them and we're always afraid of everything.
 
Isn't this what separates science from spirituality? I think consciousness (with the subconscious mind and all its wonders) is actually what religious people would call soul, spirit, etc. What we know today is that consciousness manifests itself through the brain. However, we have no proof that it is generated by the brain and this is exactly why spirituality exists. If AI could in some way prove that it is a sentient, conscious being in the future I think spirituality will slowly disappear. If that happens...yes, psychically machines and humans will be similar, with a huge difference in intelligence levels though.
 
In theory, not really. You could theoretically model a neural network to resemble a human brain. Where each axon is a weight.
 
I don't think we can match them. Feelings are not bunch of neuro algo ? Do you guys really think humanity and machinery will be same ?

BTW interesting thread.

Once i had a trip similar this when i was in an acid trip.
 
What is living indeed. Most would say an insect is living. Is a weed or a single cell organism living?
 
I recently posted something relevant to this thread in the "karma" thread: https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/do-you-believe-in-karma.1006572/page-2#post-10786648

I could go on and say that we're all programmed since we're born to behave in a certain way. Remember Pavlov's classical conditioning? Your parents instil certain beliefs and reward you accordingly (negative or positive reinforcements) so it becomes a habit. And habits eventually forms your character. It makes you behave that way afterwards. That's why I believe no one ever does something good (or bad) for no reason. That "feel good" feeling is just brought up by your subconscious self that's instiled from your childhood. Or you captured the moment that 'good begets good' either from stories, movies, religious texts, or somewhere in your childhood so you are expecting something good in return. Perhaps your brain is expecting it consciously (a.k.a: let's do this for good karma and good returns later); or subconsciously ('the feel good feeling that's brought by years of positive reinforcement from childhood'). And when you really do receive something good after doing the good deed, it reaffirms that positive reinforcement and belief.
The same can happen when bad parenting is done on children. They became spoilt brats, intolerant of others, inconsiderate of other people's feelings, .etc.

That's why I always feel parenting is very important. Or empathy, and nothing builds empathy as strong as experiencing it yourself.

Am I saying humans don't have freewill? Are we all programmed like software and bots? I don't know.
Click to expand...

As I said above that we get our personality and character from our upbringing and life experiences. Our parents are the first to instil beliefs, conditioning, and so on that forms our personality. We also observe our parents and siblings on their actions and we also pick it up from there. That's why you and your family members share similar characteristics. However, as we go to school and so on, we enter a new environment with new people and new values are being taught to us. I also want to point out the possibility of games, especially in the current generation/era, that may influence our children's character. I remember reading a news article about the controversial game "bully" or something and how it teaches bad values. Alot of parents and people disagree and mock the article about it but I see some truth in it. I've NOT played it of course but I've seen the trailer in Youtube out of curiousity. Think about it, say you get bullied or pissed for the first time you wouldn't know how to act or behave; however, when you play such games or watch violent movies you recall the characters retaliating in a violent way; and that's what will most probably make you do the same. Why do you think movies always have that 'PG' (Parental Guidance advised) or "R18" ratings? lol

But there's one thing that's hard to assimilate and that is personality or attitude. We could make machines 'behave' like one but they can't incur emotional feedback as naturally as humans. For instance, we can make snickering sarcasms and say we can detect sarcasm and so on; but machines may just take it literally and process it. Or say, we keep asking the same stupid question repeatedly, a human would get annoyed and pissed off; but machines would still respond over and over. What you gonna do? Write if-else statements?

if {questionAsked > 3) {
angryPersonality()
}

That's just a oversimplified code. Obviously programming machine's actions and emotions are way more sophisicated. And let's not get started on paradoxes. When we're faced with a paradox (whether is it a question, joke, or being treated) we humans will be confused for a moment but we may figure it out later; whereas AI or machines will just go into an endless loop back and forth till, well, a blue-screen-of-death? lol

Then a person who sincerely doesn't understand the repeated replies from a machine would get a hostile response for no reason. Or say you become great friends. Like how close friends (men or female) talk trash with each other or jokingly insult each other because of the emotional and friendship bond they have; I don't know how is it possible to program a machine to have that kind of bond with humans. I guess what really makes humans complicated isn't their character, but rather emotions. When a man/woman is deeply in love, he/she would do something entirely out of his/her character. Vice-versa when he/she is heartbroken, enraged, depressed, and so on. It is like an entire set of personality being loaded. Even stress (physically or emotionally) can make a person become totally different. I guess because when the body releases a surge of adrenaline, another set of personality gets loaded; or when a person is high on drugs or alcohol and there's a dopamine overload, he/she will behave very differently. Like how one of my friend, a calm, quiet and reserved woman, can become a 'life of a party' and a party animal after just a few glasses of drinks.

And what's more interesting is how our character or personality adapts over time. Put a happy and positive person in a place full of negativity and anger and he/she will slowly become like them; put a depressed individual in a group of happy people and he/she will get out of his/her depression (and that's why therapist always say peer support is vital because this is exactly one of the reason). A machine will just be what it is programmed to be regardless of the environment change and so on. And I think that is what makes it more superior in some areas where emotion interference can hinder one's success. Say, a stock or forex market trader vs a trading bot. I'm not referring to those cheap, lousy trading bot that the public can get their hands on; I'm referring to those algorithm trading bots banks and institutions. Regardless, it is not without faults (I will let you do the thinking).

When it comes to calculations and all, well, machine/AI has become the winner here. With all the advancements in supercomputers and all, they can process way much more efficient than us.

Put a highly-efficient being with an emotionless being and we're pretty screwed. The concerns of Elon Musk and Bill Gates were quite the truth, to say the least.

Behaving like algorithm... I see what you're pointing out here. It is like we behave and respond in a very programmed or preset manner. Well, yes, I do have to agree with that point. In psychology, there's a saying: humans are creatures of habit. When encountered with uncertainty, we fall back on our past experiences or knowledge. In fact, there are several good books that touched on this very subject: thinking, fast and slow - Daniel Kahneman, and... eh, can't recall the other one. I need to browse my home library's collection of books to get the other book's title.

Of course, that's just my opinion. Eh, that's all I can think for now and will write. I haven't had my coffee nor my wine yet!

And hey, stay happy and positive :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sophie said:
I recently posted something relevant to this thread in the "karma" thread: https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/do-you-believe-in-karma.1006572/page-2#post-10786648



As I said above that we get our personality and character from our upbringing and life experiences. Our parents are the first to instil beliefs, conditioning, and so on that forms our personality. We also observe our parents and siblings on their actions and we also pick it up from there. That's why you and your family members share similar characteristics. However, as we go to school and so on, we enter a new environment with new people and new values are being taught to us. I also want to point out the possibility of games, especially in the current generation/era, that may influence our children's character. I remember reading a news article about the controversial game "bully" or something and how it teaches bad values. Alot of parents and people disagree and mock the article about it but I see some truth in it. I've NOT played it of course but I've seen the trailer in Youtube out of curiousity. Think about it, say you get bullied or pissed for the first time you wouldn't know how to act or behave; however, when you play such games or watch violent movies you recall the characters retaliating in a violent way; and that's what will most probably make you do the same. Why do you think movies always have that 'PG' (Parental Guidance advised) or "R18" ratings? lol

But there's one thing that's hard to assimilate and that is personality or attitude. We could make machines 'behave' like one but they can't incur emotional feedback as naturally as humans. For instance, we can make snickering sarcasms and say we can detect sarcasm and so on; but machines may just take it literally and process it. Or say, we keep asking the same stupid question repeatedly, a human would get annoyed and pissed off; but machines would still respond over and over. What you gonna do? Write if-else statements?

if {questionAsked > 3) {
angryPersonality()
}

That's just a oversimplified code. Obviously programming machine's actions and emotions are way more sophisicated. And let's not get started on paradoxes. When we're faced with a paradox (whether is it a question, joke, or being treated) we humans will be confused for a moment but we may figure it out later; whereas AI or machines will just go into an endless loop back and forth till, well, a blue-screen-of-death? lol

Then a person who sincerely doesn't understand the repeated replies from a machine would get a hostile response for no reason. Or say you become great friends. Like how close friends (men or female) talk trash with each other or jokingly insult each other because of the emotional and friendship bond they have; I don't know how is it possible to program a machine to have that kind of bond with humans. I guess what really makes humans complicated isn't their character, but rather emotions. When a man/woman is deeply in love, he/she would do something entirely out of his/her character. Vice-versa when he/she is heartbroken, enraged, depressed, and so on. It is like an entire set of personality being loaded. Even stress (physically or emotionally) can make a person become totally different. I guess because when the body releases a surge of adrenaline, another set of personality gets loaded; or when a person is high on drugs or alcohol and there's a dopamine overload, he/she will behave very differently. Like how one of my friend, a calm, quiet and reserved woman, can become a 'life of a party' and a party animal after just a few glasses of drinks.

And what's more interesting is how our character or personality adapts over time. Put a happy and positive person in a place full of negativity and anger and he/she will slowly become like them; put a depressed individual in a group of happy people and he/she will get out of his/her depression (and that's why therapist always say peer support is vital because this is exactly one of the reason). A machine will just be what it is programmed to be regardless of the environment change and so on. And I think that is what makes it more superior in some areas where emotion interference can hinder one's success. Say, a stock or forex market trader vs a trading bot. I'm not referring to those cheap, lousy trading bot that the public can get their hands on; I'm referring to those algorithm trading bots banks and institutions. Regardless, it is not without faults (I will let you do the thinking).

When it comes to calculations and all, well, machine/AI has become the winner here. With all the advancements in supercomputers and all, they can process way much more efficient than us.

Put a highly-efficient being with an emotionless being and we're pretty screwed. The concerns of Elon Musk and Bill Gates were quite the truth, to say the least.

Of course, that's just my opinion. Eh, that's all I can think for now and will write. I haven't had my coffee nor my wine yet!

And hey, stay happy and positive :)
Click to expand...

Responding with violence is the best and most reasonable way of facing a bully, you're from Rusija, you should know that.
 
Humans are limited by mortality, they can never gain state of omniscient and omnipotent.

Machines(AI) aren't limited with such things, machines are simply more efficient. Humans depend on the biological process for genetic advancements which is very slow. Quantum computers aren't far away, they have the capability to take AI to next level. With a quantum computer, humans will never be able to keep up with AI, it will surpass human intelligence in no time. Gain the state of omniscient and omnipotent and that will probably be the creation of "GOD".

Humans possess felling and other personality traits which machines might never be able to achieve but the thing is, they might not be necessary. Our personality makes us human but that doesn't mean future is humans, more efficient race might not need "a personality".


images
 
Sophie said:
I recently posted something relevant to this thread in the "karma" thread: https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/do-you-believe-in-karma.1006572/page-2#post-10786648



As I said above that we get our personality and character from our upbringing and life experiences. Our parents are the first to instil beliefs, conditioning, and so on that forms our personality. We also observe our parents and siblings on their actions and we also pick it up from there. That's why you and your family members share similar characteristics. However, as we go to school and so on, we enter a new environment with new people and new values are being taught to us. I also want to point out the possibility of games, especially in the current generation/era, that may influence our children's character. I remember reading a news article about the controversial game "bully" or something and how it teaches bad values. Alot of parents and people disagree and mock the article about it but I see some truth in it. I've NOT played it of course but I've seen the trailer in Youtube out of curiousity. Think about it, say you get bullied or pissed for the first time you wouldn't know how to act or behave; however, when you play such games or watch violent movies you recall the characters retaliating in a violent way; and that's what will most probably make you do the same. Why do you think movies always have that 'PG' (Parental Guidance advised) or "R18" ratings? lol

But there's one thing that's hard to assimilate and that is personality or attitude. We could make machines 'behave' like one but they can't incur emotional feedback as naturally as humans. For instance, we can make snickering sarcasms and say we can detect sarcasm and so on; but machines may just take it literally and process it. Or say, we keep asking the same stupid question repeatedly, a human would get annoyed and pissed off; but machines would still respond over and over. What you gonna do? Write if-else statements?

if {questionAsked > 3) {
angryPersonality()
}

That's just a oversimplified code. Obviously programming machine's actions and emotions are way more sophisicated. And let's not get started on paradoxes. When we're faced with a paradox (whether is it a question, joke, or being treated) we humans will be confused for a moment but we may figure it out later; whereas AI or machines will just go into an endless loop back and forth till, well, a blue-screen-of-death? lol

Then a person who sincerely doesn't understand the repeated replies from a machine would get a hostile response for no reason. Or say you become great friends. Like how close friends (men or female) talk trash with each other or jokingly insult each other because of the emotional and friendship bond they have; I don't know how is it possible to program a machine to have that kind of bond with humans. I guess what really makes humans complicated isn't their character, but rather emotions. When a man/woman is deeply in love, he/she would do something entirely out of his/her character. Vice-versa when he/she is heartbroken, enraged, depressed, and so on. It is like an entire set of personality being loaded. Even stress (physically or emotionally) can make a person become totally different. I guess because when the body releases a surge of adrenaline, another set of personality gets loaded; or when a person is high on drugs or alcohol and there's a dopamine overload, he/she will behave very differently. Like how one of my friend, a calm, quiet and reserved woman, can become a 'life of a party' and a party animal after just a few glasses of drinks.

And what's more interesting is how our character or personality adapts over time. Put a happy and positive person in a place full of negativity and anger and he/she will slowly become like them; put a depressed individual in a group of happy people and he/she will get out of his/her depression (and that's why therapist always say peer support is vital because this is exactly one of the reason). A machine will just be what it is programmed to be regardless of the environment change and so on. And I think that is what makes it more superior in some areas where emotion interference can hinder one's success. Say, a stock or forex market trader vs a trading bot. I'm not referring to those cheap, lousy trading bot that the public can get their hands on; I'm referring to those algorithm trading bots banks and institutions. Regardless, it is not without faults (I will let you do the thinking).

When it comes to calculations and all, well, machine/AI has become the winner here. With all the advancements in supercomputers and all, they can process way much more efficient than us.

Put a highly-efficient being with an emotionless being and we're pretty screwed. The concerns of Elon Musk and Bill Gates were quite the truth, to say the least.

Behaving like algorithm... I see what you're pointing out here. It is like we behave and respond in a very programmed or preset manner. Well, yes, I do have to agree with that point. In psychology, there's a saying: humans are creatures of habit. When encountered with uncertainty, we fall back on our past experiences or knowledge. In fact, there are several good books that touched on this very subject: thinking, fast and slow - Daniel Kahneman, and... eh, can't recall the other one. I need to browse my home library's collection of books to get the other book's title.

Of course, that's just my opinion. Eh, that's all I can think for now and will write. I haven't had my coffee nor my wine yet!

And hey, stay happy and positive :)
Click to expand...

Well I’m with you in everything I would and this is very interesting but I think that you’re not right when you say that robots can’t have emotions. Every human behave the way he does for many factors not only because of what he experienced but also because of hormones, instinct....
I think we need to change our vision about robots. Of course, it is praticaly impossible to build a robot that will have all characteristics of a human being but it is theoretically possible. We could build a robot to feel pain or to be happy a way or another. Only coding him to feel emotions (not by adding a function behappy() but by adding to its machine something like hormones for humans or such things) will make him act like with other beings (whatever it is) like they were his friends.

And I thought about it yesterday. If today I cut my hand and replaced it with a robot hand then I continue and cut everyday another organ and replace it by a robot part. At which moment will I become a robot or will I stay a human anyways?
Well when I’ll be doing this experiment I won’t remove my brain. So I’ll be practically the same person but with a different body. So a human being depends on his brain. So we are just a set of data that is stuck in our brain? Too muh thinking for it lol I just red bishop berkeley idealism theory and my head is spinning so what I just writed might be completely meaningless excuse me.
 
We're source consciousness (part of universe) experiencing itself through the body (like a vessel) to have a human experience and learn and grow from the things we encounter throughout our life. Science is getting close to understanding whats really going on but science cant always explain everything. We're probably just the lonely-ass universe talking to itself through the various lifeforms that exist, wiping the mind at birth to create the illusion of separateness. All I can say is it don't matter. If a machine or AI is conscious. well. it can simulate it but it will never be source consciousness
 
Machines are limited to human intelligence. I don't believe humans will ever understand themselves 100%.
Both will keep advancing but machines will always be many steps behind.
This doesn't mean I don't believe machines will be capable of destroying us all, just that they will never be able to experience our state of self-awareness.
 
zzARzz said:
Well I’m with you in everything I would and this is very interesting but I think that you’re not right when you say that robots can’t have emotions. Every human behave the way he does for many factors not only because of what he experienced but also because of hormones, instinct....
I think we need to change our vision about robots. Of course, it is praticaly impossible to build a robot that will have all characteristics of a human being but it is theoretically possible. We could build a robot to feel pain or to be happy a way or another. Only coding him to feel emotions (not by adding a function behappy() but by adding to its machine something like hormones for humans or such things) will make him act like with other beings (whatever it is) like they were his friends.

And I thought about it yesterday. If today I cut my hand and replaced it with a robot hand then I continue and cut everyday another organ and replace it by a robot part. At which moment will I become a robot or will I stay a human anyways?
Well when I’ll be doing this experiment I won’t remove my brain. So I’ll be practically the same person but with a different body. So a human being depends on his brain. So we are just a set of data that is stuck in our brain? Too muh thinking for it lol I just red bishop berkeley idealism theory and my head is spinning so what I just writed might be completely meaningless excuse me.
Click to expand...

Suddenly I recall that cartoon sitcom.... Futurema? I remember it is produced by the creator of The Simpsons. I used to watch it many, many years back.

In one of the episode, the Jamaican guy got robbed or something and he replaced every organ with robot parts till he became a full robot. Haha!

Anyway, great discussions with all! Wish everyone a beeeeeeeeautiful Sunday! :)
 
The difference is consciousness I suppose - nobody really knows what that even is. But no matter how clever a robot is, it won’t have consciousness will it?

Unless every object already has consciousness and we just don’t know it yet?
 
davids355 said:
The difference is consciousness I suppose - nobody really knows what that even is. But no matter how clever a robot is, it won’t have consciousness will it?

Unless every object already has consciousness and we just don’t know it yet?
Click to expand...

Talking about consciousness...

Many, many years back... I guess I was 15 or 16, my brother asked me something that made me couldn't sleep well for days.

He used to play that counter strike computer game or something. As he was playing he asked me this:

counter-strike%20making%205.jpg


"In movies, stories, and even games, we are looking into another person's perspective. Like in this game, I am controlling this supposedly character as I go around killing people. I am looking at this character's view as a first person."

I went, "Uh huh."

"So right now, you're looking at me and listening to me (or as you'r reading this).... who is watching your current view now. And what happens to this supposedly conscious self after we die?"

Almost instantly, I begin questioning about life. I left the room, couldn't sleep well for days (tossing and turning in bed as I keep thinking about it), and that question still lingers on my mind every now and then.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
davids355 said:
The difference is consciousness I suppose - nobody really knows what that even is. But no matter how clever a robot is, it won’t have consciousness will it?

Unless every object already has consciousness and we just don’t know it yet?
Click to expand...
Just like I said up there, we don’t really know what counsciousness is but that might be the effect of the complexity of our brain and the enormous number of data that it treats and analyze each seconds which make us think we are counscious. That is the most rational explanation I think but we might be wrong from the beginning about our true nature and every discovery and thought about the universe and ourself may be completely false and we’ve been tricked by our mind from the beginning since we can’t as human beings see the universe in its true nature.
 
Sophie said:
Talking about consciousness...

Many, many years back... I guess I was 15 or 16, my brother asked me something that made me couldn't sleep well for days.

He used to play that counter strike computer game or something. As he was playing he asked me this:

counter-strike%20making%205.jpg


"In movies, stories, and even games, we are looking into another person's perspective. Like in this game, I am controlling this supposedly character as I go around killing people. I am looking at this character's view as a first person."

I went, "Uh huh."

"So right now, you're looking at me and listening to me (or as you'r reading this).... who is watching your current view now. And what happens to this supposedly conscious self after we die?"
Click to expand...

So maybe our consciousness is somewhere else and we’re just looking through the eyes of a physical body like a computer game?

I had another random thought about consciousness as well, a long time ago; what if all objects have consciousness? For example, it’s easy to assume humans and animals are conscious, how about flowers - although we can’t really gauge any level of consciousness, they are alive, so do they have consciousness?

And what about a table; it’s made from something that was once alive, does that have consciousness? Even though it can’t communicate or show any sign of “existing”, or see or hear or smell, whose to say there isn’t some form of conciousness still trapped in there?

And I’m the same respect, maybe there is conciousness already in AI technology, it just won’t be apparent until the tech becomes good enough for that conciousness to really make use of.
 
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