Who Here Banks Offshore?

[texas_amy]

Did you have to fly to HK and BVI to set those thing up?

 

[silicon_ronin]

Hi,

Did you have to fly to HK and BVI to set those thing up?

No, but it again all depends

I use an agent in HK to set this up and as the bank I use in HK has an office in my country, they witnessed my ID / signature here as a bank officer, and then FedEx'd these to head office in HK

For a BVI company with HK bank account using the people I use in HK you normally do need to make one trip to HK only

Regards

Ronin

 

[texas_amy]

i see, but if your country does not have tax on outside income why bother with the bvi company? wouldn't just a personal hk account suffice?

 

[silicon_ronin]

Hi Amy,

I could choose to open a personal account only, and have a few, but I prefer an offshore company for privacy and other reasons.

Some of my clients prefer to deal with a company name, invoice and bank account. Inheritance is another - I refuse to allow any government to decide what happens to my life possessions when I die - so these are held by offshore companies with bearer shares (no names on the shares - the holder is the owner) and this allows me to divide this how I like.

Then you have legal liability issues. If I slander somebody for example and get sued - well I don't own anything - I work for this offshore company and the owners? Well they're secret sorry. You can bankrupt me but my family will still be comfortable.

Get the picture? Offshore companies allow you a lot of options you don't have as a person

Regards

Ronin

 

[furiouz]

Usefull information, Ronin, thanks.
Can you advice who can register for me BVI+HK account and how much will it cost? Will it be possible to receive PayPay to such account?
one remark: I live in eastern europe, i will not go to HK to open an account personally.

 

[silicon_ronin]

Hi Furiouz,

Depending on the options and services and the provider you use a BVI company will cost around $750 to $1000 to setup and pay for the first year. There are many providers and a lot are happy with a scanned copy of your passport and utility bill for ID / Proof of address.

The bank account is different though as the larger (safer / easier to access) banks all require you attend in person. I live in Asia and get around this as the bank I use has offices locally - but in Europe, most are not branch offices, but locally incorporated subsidiaries. You may need to make the trip unless you opt for one of the riskier bank accounts you buy online.

Paypal? I don't know, I try and avoid Paypal as they're bunch of criminals

Regards

Ronin

 

[teabag]

I hope you're not feeling offended OP, I'm on your side, and only trying to help.

 

[teabag]

Well just to clarify things:
- I don't piss around with PayPal.
- I will be getting paid weekly by CPA Networks via Bank Wire straight into a foreign account.
- Ideally I'd just have a debit card with this foreign account and can fund my Adwords account with that. (My income is from PPC)
- I am not from USA.
- So essentially all of my work is offshore. All of my money, my sites hosting etc, so lets say I also registered a company in Gibraltar (for non residents) I legally don't have to pay tax.

Thanks for your input, but posts telling me I'm only going to get screwed from the IRS aren't exactly productive.

If I do what I mentioned above, how would the IRS ever even know I do internet marketing? And how is it illegal if I'm essentially based offshore in a tax haven?

Cheers

I hope you're not taking offended OP, I'm on your side and only trying to help answer your question. No offense intended.

 

[teabag]

Hi,

I use British Virgin Islands (BVI) and Belize companies with a bank account and mailing address in Hong Kong, where income derived offshore is non taxable and the banks welcome foreign companies to open accounts. I'm a Citizen of an EU country that only taxes residents - but I haven't lived there in over 40 years, and I work in an Asian country that only taxes foreigners on locally sourced income, so I don't pay anywhere

My banking is multicurrency and with ATM card and internet access. I've used the same bank and incorporators for various companies in this way over 19 years and it works well

If you are a US Citizen, you're screwed by and large, as your money is needed for bailing out Wall Street and the White House - but OP said he was not.

I would avoid Gibralter or any EU jurisdiction to be honest, the days are numbered

Regards

Ronin

This looks like an excellent structure to me. Particularly for an individual. Are you saying that your holding account in HK is multi-denominated? If so, can you please PM me? I'd like to learn more.

I've never been too keen on BVI banks because they are chartered by Her Majesty the Queen. To keep their charters, the banks have to submit to audits by UK authorities. To many people that's a good thing, by the way, because it means the banks are answerable to some authority and so have to have some standards and reliability.

To me the biggest question is not taxation, but anonymity and security. If the US or the UK government want to, they can look into any bank account anywhere in the world, and see how much money is in there, where it came from and where it goes to. If push comes to shove, in many jurisdictions, including BVI, they can just freeze the assets by threatening the bank itself. The question for me is whether they can pierce the corporate veil to reveal the identity of the owners. The art of this stuff is creating a corporate structure that eliminates or at least minimizes the banks' ability to do so. Afterall, even Switzerland has rolled over on account holders.

 

[teabag]

Must be missing something. The OP says he is NOT from the US.


Regarding getting your advice from a CPA: As far as I know under US law they are required to report suspicious activity to the government.

In other words they are, by law, required to RAT on you.

Given the entrapment culture in the US they would be stupid if they didn't.

If you are a US citizen or a US resident this offshore stuff is a MINEFIELD.
Be VERY, VERY careful what you do or who you listen to because more likely then not it is still going to get you in trouble.

I agree 100% Be very careful and never take anyone's advice without thoroughly investigating for yourself. Especially on an internet board.

As far as US CPA's being required to rat out their clients, that's not exactly how I'd interpret it. If that were the case there wouldn't be a Bernard Madoff or a banking crisis. What the laws I think you're talking about refer to are "criminal or corrupt organizations and enterprise" which originally referred to bootleggers, then the mob, then colombian drug lords and now international terrorists. I don't know of any cases where the big mafia don or drug lord was turned-in by their accountant, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Then again, anyone who doesn't report criminal activity can be considered an accessory, not just CPA's.

And for the record, nothing I've written about on this thread is illegal. The whole point is that it IS legal.

 

[teabag]

Get the picture? Offshore companies allow you a lot of options you don't have as a person

This is exactly 100% absolutely the point. Well said!

 

[silicon_ronin]

This looks like an excellent structure to me. Particularly for an individual. Are you saying that your holding account in HK is multi-denominated? If so, can you please PM me? I'd like to learn more

Yes, you transfer in USD, GBP, Euro, Yen, Canadian Dollars whatever, and it appears in an account for that. I recently had some USD come in, although it had only held GBP, HKD and NZD up to then. When the money arrived there was another "account" inside my folio for USD with the net amount inside. You can minimize exchange loss and hedge nocely this way.

PM'd you my email address so we can chat easier

I've never been too keen on BVI banks because they are chartered by Her Majesty the Queen. To keep their charters, the banks have to submit to audits by UK authorities. To many people that's a good thing, by the way, because it means the banks are answerable to some authority and so have to have some standards and reliability.

My companies are incorporated in the Carribean - but I don't bank there. HK works well for most of my stuff. As to being answerable. Royal Bank of Scotland??

To me the biggest question is not taxation, but anonymity and security. If the US or the UK government want to, they can look into any bank account anywhere in the world, and see how much money is in there, where it came from and where it goes to. If push comes to shove, in many jurisdictions, including BVI, they can just freeze the assets by threatening the bank itself. The question for me is whether they can pierce the corporate veil to reveal the identity of the owners. The art of this stuff is creating a corporate structure that eliminates or at least minimizes the banks' ability to do so.

If you are a serious international criminal and there is evidence of a major crime like drug trafficking, gun running, people trafficking, terrorism - yes - and major bank will hand over the files and they have done so since 1990 when I first started doing this - they told me bluntly they would.

Tax evasion, hiding assets from creditors, ex wives etc is not in that category

But there are loopholes...

For example I keep a USD account with the overseas branch office of a major HK bank in Manila, Philippines. As it is the overseas bank, not a Philippines bank, it is quite solid and secure

But, as a foreigner operating a USD account I get secrecy. Under Republic Act 6426 I get the following:

"Section 5. Withdrawability and transferability of deposits. - There shall be no restriction on the withdrawal by the depositor of his deposit or on the transferability of the same abroad except those arising from the contract between the depositor and the bank."

and

"Section 8. Secrecy of foreign currency deposits. - All foreign currency deposits authorized under this Act, as amended by PD No. 1035, as well as foreign currency deposits authorized under PD No. 1034, are hereby declared as and considered of an absolutely confidential nature and, except upon the written permission of the depositor, in no instance shall foreign currency deposits be examined, inquired or looked into by any person, government official, bureau or office whether judicial or administrative or legislative, or any other entity whether public or private; Provided, however, That said foreign currency deposits shall be exempt from attachment, garnishment, or any other order or process of any court, legislative body, government agency or any administrative body whatsoever. (As amended by PD No. 1035, and further amended by PD No. 1246, prom. Nov. 21, 1977.)"

This is one reason why the Philippines was one of the countries on the black list by the G20 at their recent summit Even a senate subcommittee cannot open the account - so snoopy feds from overseas?

I also keep a corporate account with a smaller bank there with USD10 in it for just in case

After all, even Switzerland has rolled over on account holders.

Switzerland is history - UBS was so big on Wall Street the Feds just threatened to revoke it's US license and they caved

Lichtenstein didn't though...

Regards

Ronin

 

[silicon_ronin]

That's a great story. People need to remember that any country that a person is a citizen of, has jurisdiction over them, regardless of where they are located. This means they are still subject to all of the laws of that country, even if they reside in a far off country. A country like the U.S. will hunt you down for certain crimes or tax evasion.

They don't even need to hunt you half the time. One thing they do here is the State Dept cancels the US Citizen's Passport and advises the Immigration Dept of the country you are in that you no longer have a valid travel document. This goes on to the computer. Next time you attempt to renew your visa or enter or exit the country, you are held in custody as an undocumented alien.

...and of course the only country that will accept such a stateless former US citizen is the US

They can short cut an extradition process in this way

So, for starters, if you're going to piss off a government, piss off someone else's and not your own?



Regards

Ronin

 

[Freddie]

I agree 100% Be very careful and never take anyone's advice without thoroughly investigating for yourself. Especially on an internet board.

AGREED!

As far as US CPA's being required to rat out their clients, that's not exactly how I'd interpret it. If that were the case there wouldn't be a Bernard Madoff or a banking crisis. What the laws I think you're talking about refer to are "criminal or corrupt organizations and enterprise" which originally referred to bootleggers, then the mob, then colombian drug lords and now international terrorists.

I don't recall exactly what law it is I am referring to. I have read quite a few things on this topic over the last 15 years. I doubt that it is the law that you are referring to above.

Don't have much time to dig around at the moment but here are a few links:

[url]http://baumanblog.sovereignsociety.com/2009/06/wealth-advisors-as-federal-snitches.html[/url]

Quote from that page:

"Many types of wealth advisors soon may be required -- that?s right, required -- to report clients who are evading taxes. Sometime later this year, guidelines, and maybe even laws, will be issued in the U.S. requiring 'gatekeepers' to report suspicious clients to the federal government."

Now, while this does not explicitly talk about CPAs and it says "soon", I distinctly remember reading several years ago that with a tax attorney you MIGHT have legally protected communication, with a CPA you DON'T and that CPAs are legally obliged to report your suspicious activities. Most CPAs are probably clueless about offshore stuff and the general perception is that offshore is suspicious.

Elsewhere on this page:

Vern also pointed out to me that under current IRS rules, CPAs, such as himself, already must report to the IRS certain "listed transactions, reportable transactions, transactions of interest and -- in some cases -- transactions that do not meet the standard of being supported by 'substantial authority'".

In that text on that site there is a link to those IRS rules.

This idea that CPAs need to rat on you by law is NOT unique to the US. Regardless of where you are resident better safe then sorry and CHECK if this applies where you are.

I don't know of any cases where the big mafia don or drug lord was turned-in by their accountant, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Then again, anyone who doesn't report criminal activity can be considered an accessory, not just CPA's.

I am taking a guess that there will be numerous of those in the witness protection program. That it may not happen a lot might have to do something with the fact they are more scared of a bullet than the feds.

And for the record, nothing I've written about on this thread is illegal. The whole point is that it IS legal.

And THAT is where I am putting some BIG question marks.

I am with ronin on this one:

If you are a US citizen you may as well drop your pants, bend over a desk and ring the Feds now and get it over with.

The US actively prosecutes those who promote offshore "schemes".

When the promoters of schemes and offshore constructions come under fire they will roll over and the plea agreements will results in every single participant in their scheme to be next in line for some reaming.



The fact that someone is not the owner on paper does not mean it is necessarily legal. There are various concepts along the lines of "beneficial ownership" and "dealing at arms length" etc.



The fact they may INITIALLY not be able to find you also does NOT mean that what you are doing is legal.

Another thing is that those schemes are often complicated and EXPENSIVE and at the end of the day probably only offer PERCEIVED protection. That is the idea of being safe in what you do until someone is either legally obliged to rat on you or enters into a plea agreement.

What you also need to realize is that the definition of money l@undering is ridiculously broad these days.

Another interesting thing to look into when considering offshore accounts is the Qualified Intermediary program. Here is a BIT more about it

[url]http://baumanblog.sovereignsociety.com/2008/10/grasping-irs-ai.html[/url]

What I don't think is mentioned there is that if a US citizen shows up at one of those banks and flashes a non US passport (either a serious one or one of those $5000 African "banking" passports) but it is somehow clear/suspected that he/she is a US citizen as well (e.g. US place of birth) that he/she will then be further investigated/reported anyway.

The level of extortion used by the US gov/IRS to expand their power far beyond their border is very substantial.

 

[Freddie]

People need to remember that any country that a person is a citizen of, has jurisdiction over them, regardless of where they are located. This means they are still subject to all of the laws of that country, even if they reside in a far off country.

Where did you get that idea? Laws come with a territory.

 

[Hell389]

I wouldn't keep big money too far away from me, just dig a big hole and keep it under your house.Make a secret door down and name it "my secret lab", put hi tech securities and put all your cash, diamonds, gold inside.Put a freeze full of beers, a big home theatre and soft sofa inside.

That's what I might do one day.

 

[stevesdata]

I would be really interested in any good solutions / advice for UK residents as I looked into this a while ago and much of the advice was more for US based ppl.

Much of the advice I got last time pointed to the Virgin Islands I believe. There were lawyers that set it up in central London. The only problem is if something shady happens with the country / their govt.

Many thanks for anyone that can help.

 

[Freddie]

Here's a true story

I live in a third world Asian country, layback tropical lifestyle. A few years ago I met an American in his late 30's, a former school teacher turned internet guy. He settled in with his local wife and kids and started to scam the US government and broke Federal laws in doing so.

Emboldened, he started to do this for other Americans who gladly paid him a big chunk of what they illegally saved or accrued.

He was a long way from the USA and untouchable right?

Wrong!

Early one morning two FBI agents and two local police turned up on his doorstep in my island location. He was told to pack a bag and then taken to the local airstrip where a charter flight flew him to Guam - US Federal Territory - and appeared before a US Federal Judge for arraignment.

He was then flown to mainland USA in chains, and after a plea bargain copped a US$1 million fine, 5 years federal jail time, and had to rat on every participant in the scheme (who were then of course investigated)

It's not just the CIA that renders people nowadays - be very careful

That story is one of many and a good example/warning for those who are are unaware of what they are up against.

If you are a serious international criminal and there is evidence of a major crime like drug trafficking, gun running, people trafficking, terrorism - yes - and major bank will hand over the files and they have done so since 1990 when I first started doing this - they told me bluntly they would.

Yes they WILL. The question is will they go through the effort of checking accusations and waiting for a court order or will they give in to anyone who uses one of the "magic" words such as "t*rrorism" or "money l@undering" etc?

I recently read the terms and conditions of a bank in an offshore jurisdiction and it stated -indirectly- that they will give your info to just about anyone who wants it WITHOUT a court order.

Tax evasion, hiding assets from creditors, ex wives etc is not in that category

But there are loopholes...

For example I keep a USD account with the overseas branch office of a major HK bank in Manila, Philippines. As it is the overseas bank, not a Philippines bank, it is quite solid and secure

But, as a foreigner operating a USD account I get secrecy. Under Republic Act 6426 I get the following:

Maybe from the local government. But probably not from the US gov if it is a USD account.

Well over a decade ago banks in certain offshore jurisdictions where already sending letters to their clients holding USD accounts that they would have to close their USD account unless they confirmed in writing that the bank could violate their privacy by revealing the beneficial owner of the account to the US gov. If I remember this correctly this was also for non US citizens holding USD accounts.

They don't even need to hunt you half the time. One thing they do here is the State Dept cancels the US Citizen's Passport and advises the Immigration Dept of the country you are in that you no longer have a valid travel document. This goes on to the computer. Next time you attempt to renew your visa or enter or exit the country, you are held in custody as an undocumented alien.

That might be preventable. This is a good example as to why having more than one nationality can have benefits. DISCLAIMER: Check with a lawyer if that is true and applicable in your specific case if you intend to rely on that!!

...and of course the only country that will accept such a stateless former US citizen is the US

Not having a passport does not make you stateless or a former citizen

They can short cut an extradition process in this way

So, for starters, if you're going to piss off a government, piss off someone else's and not your own?



Regards

Ronin

Or at least make sure you know your enemy when you do it.....

 

[Freddie]

I would be really interested in any good solutions / advice for UK residents as I looked into this a while ago and much of the advice was more for US based ppl.

Much of the advice I got last time pointed to the Virgin Islands I believe. There were lawyers that set it up in central London. The only problem is if something shady happens with the country / their govt.

Many thanks for anyone that can help.

Are you only UK resident or are you also a British citizen domiciled in the UK?

Don't know exactly what the implications are but the tax situation will depend heavily on your exact status. There are various benefits when being resident but not domiciled in the UK.

 

[silicon_ronin]

Hi,

Just a few quick ones...

Many laws do not go with territory only, but with citizenship

For example, where I live you just do not get government contracts without bribing officials. However, any US company that bribes an official, even through their local agent, will get nailed for criminal prosecution at the executive level back in the USA. It's common practise here for locals to coerce a US bidder to bribe and win the contract - then hold evidence of this bribery and milk the US company dry by extortion

Many countries like the UK, the USA, Australia, have sex tourism laws. If a citizen travels to a third world country and exploits an underage minor, then even if local police don't prosecute (they get paid off) then the home country will prosecute their citizen on return. We had an Australian forcibly rape a 14yo girl where I live and then walk away after bribing a police chief for US$8K. I had him dragged back to Melbourne in handcuffs where he is still rotting in jail. His citizenship nailed him.

US Citizens really cannot do much nowadays it is that tight and there are more and more banks and offshore corp secs who won't deal with them as they just don't want the hassle of the US govt

As for UK citizenship and residence - tax is purely on residence. Yes, third world jurisdictions are a risk, and that is why I form companies there but never, ever bank there. I bank in HK where carribean companies can operate bank accounts in a safe, fast, efficient environment.

Regards

Ronin