Oh.. So Black Hat is Dieing?

[cody41]

Wow, buncha pm's coming in from people i haven't talked to in awhile..good to reconnect again Didn't really mean to go off and rant, but this place has been slowly evolving into what it is, as most of the old timers know, and I just felt like it was time to say something. It is what it is, I get that. But I figured if I was reaching anyone new who only knew blackhat as SENUKE, well, it was time for a mini education lol

 

[Ambassy]

We don't even know your actual rank nor do we know the toughness of the keywords you're ranking for.
The pictures show nothing of value

 

[Narrator]

So I just did some editing of my original post after my initial diatribe. What I'm trying to convey is that there is REAL blackhat and then there's pushbutton seo tools to game the seo industry. This site has moved well into that side of the world versus the original roots of where Diamond Dave brought the site up from. Don't get me wrong, a lot of real blackhat shit is illegal and morally reprehensible..but it's real. Hacking, infiltrating, embedding code, redirects, stuffing, etc, etc..all very real and used today. Ya think it's just the Chinese, Turks and Russians doing this shit around the world for "other reasons" related to bank card hacking, website defacing, and intel based hacks to sell govt info? Hell no. There are some people on THIS SITE that have made over a million dollars, yes, that amount, in gaming the system through backdoor means. Now, they may not be active, or active anymore, but yes way before this site became backlink tool and stupid question central in the main forums, this was the place for the thinktank to come to. The old guard is now spread out over the web and people do hold on to more than they did before, but that's only due to preservation in an already crowded space. That's just the reality of it.

Going to let you in on a little secret, and this is before VT scans for downloads and whatnot. But, there was a well known cracker who would crack seo proggries and distribute the crack to all of us across different forums. Some forums are more lax in terms of what's allowed for "blackhat" downloads and whatnot. Anyways, this guy was pushing cracks out with hidden, or FUD, code either in the root of the folder for the crack inside the rar that would NOT be picked up by most antivirus or he'd place it inside a folder inside the rar called..lol, get this, WALLPAPERS and place a jpg or gif inside that folder. So you know what would happen?

New Thread: "SENUKE CRACK ver 1.xx FULLY PORTABLE YADDA YADDA YADDA" - and then the sheep would start coming at the first sound of the shepherds bell. Like moths to a candle. White on rice. Stank on..ya get the point.

Million people want to get something for nothing, download the crack, use it, don't use it, complain it doens't work (LMAO @ this. You downloaded a crack you idiot..and you're complaining it doesn't work L.O.L) and they in turn rehost or reupload that crack to "keep the blackhat spirit alive".

You know what you're also keeping alive? That little iddy biddy undetectable code hidden inside the jpg inside the wallpaper folder Not every malware comes with a bow tied on it. And honestly, who the hell here can decompile in IDA PRO and walk through the code base to see what the hell is going on? Exactly. Either way, for many years and I'd argue right now as well, the crackers have been gaming you guys as well. Not saying all of them, but it'd be naive to think otherwise...just saying...and that my friends - is blackhat

That's all true, the methods you keep ranting about are black hat but they aren't SEO. This thread is in the SEO section so I don't know where you are trying to go with this.

As far as for the blackhat SEO methods from 5-10 years ago like keyword stuffing, cloaking, redirects, etc... most of them don't work anymore. Hence the reason why automated tools and networks are the primary topics posted here.

And as you mentioned SQL injections for links, yea they work, but being that it's illegal and this is a public forum it's not discussed here. Not to mention SQL injections aren't even all that impressive, any script kiddie can do it.

Edit: That sounded a bit more harsh than I intended. I understand you're frustrated with the large number of 'gurus' and newbies that consider everything blackhat. But that's the way this industry has always been. And I personally like it that way, because it keeps the majority from finding useful information, and the minority that choose to branch off from the flock find success.

Cheers!

 

[loclhero]

Wow, buncha pm's coming in from people i haven't talked to in awhile..good to reconnect again Didn't really mean to go off and rant, but this place has been slowly evolving into what it is, as most of the old timers know, and I just felt like it was time to say something. It is what it is, I get that. But I figured if I was reaching anyone new who only knew blackhat as SENUKE, well, it was time for a mini education lol

I've said this more times than I can remember. BHW and BH in general used to mean something different. 5 years ago, BHW was full of nasty little tactics that made money. Big money. What happened I don't know but I suspect legal issues became involved for owner(s) of BHW and they decided it was in their best interest to stop discussions of what this forum was once truly about. Understandable.

That along with the fact that the forum has grown exponentially and has become populated with people from 3rd world nations who are hoping to just scratch out a few bucks a day. Eventually, niche marketing became the norm here and people went from making a grip of cash to people saying, "You need to build something long term". It's laughable. Of the thousands of posts from people hoping to build backlinks to their niche sites, I'd guess that 99% of them don't make enough money per day to buy a gallon of gas and their "long term, legit websites" will be gone within 3 months.

 

[C@MEL]

Well, quit intressting reading everything here, anyways congratz on your succes

 

[Scritty]

The thing about black hat techniques isn't that they don't work, its that they not always sustainable. Which is why every time Google release an update there are a dozen threads talking about how they got hit.

True - but they represent a noisy (They tend to feel a bit butt-hurt - so REALLY noisy) minority rather than the majority that they seem to be.
Not saying their concerns aren't real - just that Google's main "win" is the fear that is then spread by effectivley very little action.

A look at the linking profiles and onsite SEO for many commercial terms shows sites using spammy techniques and poor content linking as well now as they did in 1998. A few less sure, and you are under the SE's rifle sites - sure again - but the mass slapping is not as wide spread as the "noise" generated when a few hundred BH promoted websites get hit.

Everyone then runs around like headless chickens with the same couple of hundred web owners posting doom and fear all over the place.
That would be a couple of hundred out of many hundreds of thousands.
Then, rather than check say 250 results and see for yourself and discover.... "Hmm 248 of those terms still have the same old shit sites ranking well".... we concentrate too much on the fraction of a percent that got hit.

Either way - by divining the providence of links and promotion (which Google while a little better at - but still pretty shit) or by scaring people into stopping SEO campaigns. Google has still won.

 

[cody41]

That's all true, the methods you keep ranting about are black hat but they aren't SEO. This thread is in the SEO section so I don't know where you are trying to go with this.

As far as for the blackhat SEO methods from 5-10 years ago like keyword stuffing, cloaking, redirects, etc... most of them don't work anymore. Hence the reason why automated tools and networks are the primary topics posted here.

And as you mentioned SQL injections for links, yea they work, but being that it's illegal and this is a public forum it's not discussed here. Not to mention SQL injections aren't even all that impressive, any script kiddie can do it.

Cheers!

True, true. I realized half way through my rant where I was posting what I was saying. You definitely got me on that
Call it a late night frusturation after reflecting at what this board has become. It's sad, and there are people who you can count on maybe 3 or 4 hands who give meaningful contributions around here of thought invoking stuff. You do this long enough, as I know some of you have, and it just highlights where we are as a society of entrepreneur business people who make money online.

You're right, there's a bunch of stuff that don't work anymore, and that's because the algo's have changed and cpa companies and their operatives are keen on tracking many different stats to hone in on what is being sent to them or not. If I really think about it now, in the daytime, what I miss, truly miss, is the open ended exchange of innovative ideas amongst peers. I forget the posters name, but there was a guy in the white hat section last year that was tracking individual metric changes in how google was ranking his site. He broke everything down to the codeline level and made assumptions and assertations, but he was doing it and reporting it, and asking for group feedback. Granted, that's NOT blackhat but the innovation-ness of it was refreshing because whereas he was doing it the right way and putting the work in, someone equally as talented could have been trying to determine the next loop hole to exploit or leverage within the algo's gaps or data pass through connections.

Here's the thing about sql injections and getting root of a webserver and infecting every other index.php file out there on all 20 of your sites hosted with the same company: every script kiddie *could* do it, and at the same time - they're not. It's one idea to say you'll hack a site to get access..it's a completely different idea and scope of project to put everything ELSE in place to ultimately drive traffic, links, pr, money back to your site/account. Again, it's about innovation and pushing the boundaries.

Good points though about why this site has moved to more of a PG13 rating, and yea, it makes business/legal sense..I get that. But does anyone else here echo my sentiments in regards to all that we ever hear is the same exact thing, week after week in the subforums? Hell, you've got dev's making wiki submitter after wiki submitter to offer to the masses. I think I can spout 5 of them off the top of my head. Really? 5 devs, all offering the same thing? I'm all about selling the shovel at the mine entrance, but when you've got 5 sellers all doing the same thing, with shovels of different sizes and colors..big whoopy fucking do. It's still a shovel. What I'd love to see is the guy who shows up at the seller group with a goddamn giant excavator thus eliminating any mention of the "new" tools coming to market.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for competitive marketing..but of the right stuff. I can't be the only guy here that shook his head when they heard that "anther brand new WIKI SUBMITTER was coming to market!"

 

[Narrator]

True, true. I realized half way through my rant where I was posting what I was saying. You definitely got me on that
Call it a late night frusturation after reflecting at what this board has become. It's sad, and there are people who you can count on maybe 3 or 4 hands who give meaningful contributions around here of thought invoking stuff. You do this long enough, as I know some of you have, and it just highlights where we are as a society of entrepreneur business people who make money online.

You're right, there's a bunch of stuff that don't work anymore, and that's because the algo's have changed and cpa companies and their operatives are keen on tracking many different stats to hone in on what is being sent to them or not. If I really think about it now, in the daytime, what I miss, truly miss, is the open ended exchange of innovative ideas amongst peers. I forget the posters name, but there was a guy in the white hat section last year that was tracking individual metric changes in how google was ranking his site. He broke everything down to the codeline level and made assumptions and assertations, but he was doing it and reporting it, and asking for group feedback. Granted, that's NOT blackhat but the innovation-ness of it was refreshing because whereas he was doing it the right way and putting the work in, someone equally as talented could have been trying to determine the next loop hole to exploit or leverage within the algo's gaps or data pass through connections.

Here's the thing about sql injections and getting root of a webserver and infecting every other index.php file out there on all 20 of your sites hosted with the same company: every script kiddie *could* do it, and at the same time - they're not. It's one idea to say you'll hack a site to get access..it's a completely different idea and scope of project to put everything ELSE in place to ultimately drive traffic, links, pr, money back to your site/account. Again, it's about innovation and pushing the boundaries.

Good points though about why this site has moved to more of a PG13 rating, and yea, it makes business/legal sense..I get that. But does anyone else here echo my sentiments in regards to all that we ever hear is the same exact thing, week after week in the subforums? Hell, you've got dev's making wiki submitter after wiki submitter to offer to the masses. I think I can spout 5 of them off the top of my head. Really? 5 devs, all offering the same thing? I'm all about selling the shovel at the mine entrance, but when you've got 5 sellers all doing the same thing, with shovels of different sizes and colors..big whoopy fucking do. It's still a shovel. What I'd love to see is the guy who shows up at the seller group with a goddamn giant excavator thus eliminating any mention of the "new" tools coming to market.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for competitive marketing..but of the right stuff. I can't be the only guy here that shook his head when they heard that "anther brand new WIKI SUBMITTER was coming to market!"

I agree, that its frustrating how this entire industry has a herd mentality, the greatest example is the WF WSOs, but that's a whole other topic. But that gives us, the independent thinkers an advantage. It also limits our competition.

Nobody has imagination anymore they look for the easiest route to the money (even the devs in your example) which leads to failure.

Cheers!

 

[ok888]

@cody41 u r blowing up my mind with all these great posts


All the things u said about the real blackhat method is really interesting



I remember back in the days that all i used to see but i guess i missed the boat

Too bad it cant be discussed anymore

 

[thejake]

Ok, well this is after 2 months of using black hat tools on an aged test site <3

I could think of a hundred better things to do for 2 months that would result in something better than #5 in Google for something nobody searches for. Almost anything would be better, frankly.

 

[dog-tag]

If I EVER hear -

1.) Google is going to stop all black hat soon
2.) People don't click adverts online
3.) There is no money in porn

I will rip my own dick off.

 

[speedy5044]

cody41's posts should be made stickies so every new comers from DP WF and every other stupid places read them and learn whats BH means .

 

[cody41]

If I EVER hear -

1.) Google is going to stop all black hat soon
2.) People don't click adverts online
3.) There is no money in porn

I will rip my own dick off.

1 guy, 2 balls?

Yea, not a fan of the sky is falling shit either. It's either the marketer that wants to drum up interest in a new super product or a newbie that always fears the worth.
BTW- I better tell my rep @ Google about number 2. Apparently Google is just GIVING me money for the hell of it

 

[turbohacker]

If I EVER hear -

1.) Google is going to stop all black hat soon
2.) People don't click adverts online
3.) There is no money in porn

I will rip my own dick off.

Hey dog, Google is stopping all blackhat soon, people don't click adverts and there's no money in porn....

Now, I'll have it in a hot dog bun and so I can feed it to my dog

 

[dog-tag]

Hey dog, Google is stopping all blackhat soon, people don't click adverts and there's no money in porn....

Now, I'll have it in a hot dog bun and so I can feed it to my dog

 

[spookyloot]

So I just did some editing of my original post after my initial diatribe. What I'm trying to convey is that there is REAL blackhat and then there's pushbutton seo tools to game the seo industry. This site has moved well into that side of the world versus the original roots of where Diamond Dave brought the site up from. Don't get me wrong, a lot of real blackhat shit is illegal and morally reprehensible..but it's real. Hacking, infiltrating, embedding code, redirects, stuffing, etc, etc..all very real and used today. Ya think it's just the Chinese, Turks and Russians doing this shit around the world for "other reasons" related to bank card hacking, website defacing, and intel based hacks to sell govt info? Hell no. There are some people on THIS SITE that have made over a million dollars, yes, that amount, in gaming the system through backdoor means. Now, they may not be active, or active anymore, but yes way before this site became backlink tool and stupid question central in the main forums, this was the place for the thinktank to come to. The old guard is now spread out over the web and people do hold on to more than they did before, but that's only due to preservation in an already crowded space. That's just the reality of it.
...

Reading this made me feel very small in this blackhat world.. By pursuing the dream of making fast money online with blackhat methods people forget the persons who founded the basics of all this knowledge. Makes you forget about the darker sides of the internet. The community's you won't find ranked #1 in google.

 

[Scritty]

If I EVER hear -

1.) Google is going to stop all black hat soon
2.) People don't click adverts online
3.) There is no money in porn

I will rip my own dick off.

Yup -

This is the sort of bullshit that is propagated by numbskulls and SEOMOZ addicts.
Respect for pointing it out my man.

Scritty

 

[cody41]

Reading this made me feel very small in this blackhat world.. By pursuing the dream of making fast money online with blackhat methods people forget the persons who founded the basics of all this knowledge. Makes you forget about the darker sides of the internet. The community's you won't find ranked #1 in google.

Fast money doesn't really exist, in my opinion, unless you stumble upon something that works for you. I mean, if you really wanted to make a quick buck, go get a money making scheme in the subforum here, rewrite it in your own words, add color, graphs, income statements, and some pretty graphics and then to top it off add a spin or two to the system..and then offer it for $5 as a WSO.

Then, to really make it worthwhile - get 10 people here to give glowing "real world" testimonials that don't sound so contrived. Tell those 10 people that there's incentive for them that if you reach $500 in sales, you're paying them $10-$20 each for their one 100-200 word endorsement.

Rinse. Repeat.

I learned along time ago that everything, and I mean everything we do is a numbers game. Take the adsense side of my business line - for every 100 sites I develop and put out there, I assume at least 30-40 will be of some sort of substantial income..$5/day-$30/day..roughly..within 6 months to a year. That's pretty good. You'll have winners and losers. You treat this as a business..have a working capital expenditure for site development/content creation/domain purchasing, write off software purchases if you're U.S bases, and track metrics: income per day/week/month, bounce rates, traffic words, competitors etc.

Basically get the assembly line rolling so that it all becomes passive at some point. The big wrench in all of this, just adsense of course for what I'm talking about, is how Google fucks with their Google to meet their internal business development goals. I had a holiday site with a massively awesome EMD that for the month of October did roughly 10-15k in purse adsense revenue. You know what the kicker was? I built the site in 2006, and then set and forgot about it and just let those dings keep piling up every year. THAT should be the goal of anyone in business. Passive, reoccuring income.

Now, let's talk a little blackhat. Just by reading the tea leaves with what Google is attempting to do, and all you have to do if you have time is start reading the different patents that Google has applied for over the years and you can start piecing together what their long term plan appears to be. From all my research, I really think that the knowledge graph basis for contextual research will start to drive the taxonomies of ranking relationships. So what does that mean? How best to game the system from within Google's own algo to expose the exploitation. And you know it's there, covered up. That's why we test. Back in the day you could take rss feed creators/readers and suck down a ton of keyword content and generate 1000's of bullshit pages to rank really quickly and reap a ton of cash (quick cash!) before the algo adjusted for what was going on. Hit it and quit it. And it worked. Subdomain out every new keyword landing page and push it to the max to get forced to the top of the serp. Google had no answer until they adjustd various variables, most notably link weight and density.

It'll be someone with a good eye of deconstruction that will figure it out. Things still work now with tiered linking schema's, depending on the niche and the existing authority sites in place...fresh content, social signals, and contextual co-authority mentions are all a great means to play the game. But what to do to climb the ranks within the relationship taxonomy so that as a node on the graph, you can place yourself nearer the top than the bottom..that'll be the million dollar question that may never be answered...in public.

 

[cody41]

One other thing, I realize I cuss alot in my threads. If you're offended by that I apologize. Someone pm'd me and said that not many people are passionate about shit anymore and it's evident by some (many) of the postings in the forum. I speak my mind and how I feel. Blame it on me being in Texas and being Italian I'm not insensitive, but to hell with sugar coating crap for the sake of being PC. I know I hijacked the hell out of this thread, so I'll probably go start one on my own so that y'all can discuss why or why not blackhatting will never die lol

 

[dragonrage01]

Some of you guys clearly have no idea wtf blackhat even means, I hate to say. Gaming the seo system by backlinks and interlinking is NOT blackhat. "but man, i automate web 2.0s and get mad links!!"

/golfclap

Hell, if you want to argue what IS blackhat, go talk to some of the guys who do sql injections to hack sites to post out brand new pages with their own spun content to get ranked on Google. That shit is blackhat my friends. And don't get me started on cookie stuffing and redirects. Back in the day, there were a bunch of us pulling $1000's a day through different ad farms just based on doing botnet distributions of cookie redirects for amazon/ebay and any other profit tunnel we could milk.

Arguing over what "blackhat" tools like senuke or ultimate demon can do for your rankings is not blackhat

Just because Matt Cutts says what you do is blackhat, isn't even remotely close to what it actually is.

I hope you know that cookie stuffing is illegal now. People go to prison for 5 years due to it. Although most cases were only in the U.S. The most common penalty is just $250k dollars.
FBI is cracking hard on people that do these lately.