Why are you all so pagerank mad?

Get the fuck off of BHW..your rep will sort you out soon enough.

You are all over the place in this thread, you can't even get your story straight about why PR is "bullshit"

There's a reason BHW's the #1 place for real SEO information

You're the one trolling because you sell links according to your sig and my truth upsets you. The stuff you have said already on here is very wrong and misleding to others.

My "story" is completely straight. Why don't you put the cheese burger down and read the English in front of you.:D
 
If the perceived value of PR is that it has value, then it has value -- regardless of whether it actually helps with ranking and SEO or not. Who gives a flipping flying crap whether its true value or perceived value, either way it translates into real money.

Can you read here? We are not talking about the best way to sell links to people.

Google likes to mention repetitively that it has 200 factors it ranks on. To say PR is definitively not one of those 200 factors is just being a troll.

It is one of the factors, are you silly? I'm talking about the pr you see not being the current pr. I'm going to go American here "Seriously Dude" you're killin me here :D
 
This site is full of bad advice which is why rep is silly as buying links for tool bar pr.
Don't let the door slap you on the arse on the way out.
PageRank, toolbar PageRank, is updated randomly. By randomly, I mean, it's been as long as 11 months in some cases between a toolbar PageRank update, meaning that a site's actual PageRank might have jumped up a bunch or gone down a bunch, but Google won't change the metric that they show for 11 months, and then recently we had a PageRank update that only took about one month. It used to be that it would happen every month. Now it is very inconsistent. I think the last ordering was there was a month between the last update. Then it was six months before that. It was about five months before that. It was like three months before that. So it is inconsistent. It is a little random. It is when someone at Google decides to turn on that meter. So you don't really know when the next update is coming, nor do you necessarily know how recent your PageRank is, the PageRank that is being reported in the toolbar, unless you check when the last update occurred. So that's an important thing to notice.

Also to note, PageRank happens on a log scale. Let's talk a little bit about a log scale, what that means. So, for example, a log scale, this is a log base 2. What I have done is just drawn little lines to try and illustrate. So, zero, there is nothing there. One, I drew one little line. Two has two little lines. Three has four lines. It is doubling, the base is 2. So we're going up. You can imagine, this curve sort of looks like this until we get to PageRank of 10, which would be way, way off the screen, just super high up, and obviously my line illustrations are by no means perfect. So this should actually be double that. It is probably not.

PageRank does not use log base 2. We suspect here at SEOmoz because we calculate our own similar metric by crawling the Web, we calculate a metric called MozRank. MozRank is designed to mimic PageRank. In fact, it is very similar to the original algorithm that was published by Larry and Sergey back at Stanford. But what we've found is that when we need to scale it, the log base is not 2, but it is between 8 and 9. That means that a PR 7 for example would be 8 times, let's say 8.5 times, more important, more linked to, more well linked to than a PageRank 6 page. So there is a lot of variation in here, and that gradation is not observable through the PageRank that you get in the toolbar, which is a little frustrating. It is one of the reasons why when you see MozRank reported, MozRank will say something like 6.42. So you get a sense of, oh, okay, that's where I am in the scale. I am closer to a 6 than a 7. I am right about the midpoint. This helps you to just see those changes month over month since MozRank is reported consistently every month.

PageRank in the toolbar has a relatively low correlation to how well things actually rank. Meaning that if you were to take the toolbar PageRank of thousands of top 10, top 20, top 30 results and compare them and ask the question, "Do things with higher PageRank tend to rank better then things with lower PageRank," the answer would be yes, but only barely. In fact, the correlation is around 0.11, 0.12. It is pretty darn low, and it gets lower and lower the further away we move from the last PageRank update, which makes sense, right? As the scores degrade in freshness, so too does that correlation. You get this sense of like, wow, yeah, PageRank is probably a very small part of the algorithm.

What it is useful for, and what Google talks about it being used for, and not toolbar PageRank but real PageRank, which we'll talk about in a sec, is to help them determine which URLs on the Web to crawl and prioritize and recrawl. Meaning that, things that are more important, they tend to recrawl them more frequently, and PageRank is one of the items that goes into that calculation. I think almost certainly another one is how frequently they are adding new unique content that Google has never seen before, because they want to make sure that they are indexing that stuff.

So, real PageRank is actually a number that is calculated between 0 and 1. It uses a ton of trailing decimal points typically. It's updated multiple times daily. So you can hear Google's representatives talking about PageRank and they say, "Oh yeah, internally we are constantly recalculating and refactoring PageRank. In fact, we now have systems to estimate the calculation of PageRank so that we don't have to run it across the full web graph because it is very computationally expensive to run PageRank so many times." In fact, here at SEOmoz, MozRank calculations are one of the big reasons that it takes a long time for us to process and calculate an index. I think it is almost a day, day and a half, of processing across 50 to 60 billion URLs to try and make the MozRank calculations happen, which are similar to PageRank.

So, all of that theoretical stuff in mind, let's talk about actually using PageRank, where you should and where you shouldn't.

PageRank is useful as a raw indication of link popularity. Meaning that, PageRank doesn't take into account anchor text. It doesn't take into account whether the sites are related to each other. It doesn't take into account whether some of the sites maybe have been flagged for spam. It doesn't take into account whether the page is relevant to the actual search query. All it says is, in terms of the raw link popularity, the how many pages are pointed to this and how important the pages are that link to this, how important is this on the grand scale of the Web? Remember, the most important site on the web will be a 10, and everything else will fall back from that. So, as the most important sites on the Web gain tons of links, Facebook for example, Twitter for example, everything else is going to be scaled down a little bit. You might have seen in this recent PageRank update, the last couple, that a lot of sites took hits. Big important sites. Nasa.gov went down, Yahoo went down, Google.com fell from a 10 to a 9. That's crazy. That's amazing. What happens there is essentially the most important sites, this is my opinion, but the most important sites are essentially pushing out the boundary of what it takes to be a 10 and then those other sites are falling along the curve somewhere.

So, okay, good as a rough indicator of raw link popularity. It can be useful as well to compare it to other metrics. So, if I see something like a MozRank of a 6 and a PageRank of 3, I might get a little suspicious. There are two big things that could be happening in this type of an instance. If I see that MozRank is high, PageRank is low, I might think to myself, well, maybe since Google's last update to PageRank, this page has gained lots of links and the SEOmoz web index, Linkscape, has recognized that and is crediting them with higher MozRank, but Google, while they have recognized it internally, through real PageRank, they have not calculated it with toolbar PageRank because they have not done a push, an update, of that exported data and so we're just not seeing it.

The other explanation and the more dangerous one is when you see a site and you're like, boy, I think they might be selling links, I think they might be buying links, I think they might be manipulating the link graph in some way through some Web spam and you see those low PR numbers and maybe the page doesn't rank so well, but the MozRank is high, remember that MozRank does not have Google spam calculations in it. PageRank, Google will sometimes penalize sites and pages for selling links or buying links, and that's the way they sort of let you know, like, wink wink, "Hey, we know you're selling links, stop doing it."

The other thing is that the history of PageRank can be useful. So if you se that your site a couple weeks ago or a couple months ago used to be a 6 and now it is a 7, you can gain some insight into that. Especially when you are looking at penalizations you might say, "Oh man, this site used to be a PR 6 four months ago. Now it is a PR 2. Something is mighty suspicious." There is a tool on SEOmoz that is free. It is called Historical PageRank. You can search for it and you will find that. It can be very useful. I actually use and like that tool a lot.

Do not use PageRank for understanding why things rank well in the SERPs or don't. You look at a page of search results and you see, oh, the number one result, well, it must have the highest PageRank. No. Like, no, I can't describe to you how frustrating that is for anyone, for search engineers, for professional SEOs, for . . . anyway, that is not how the search results work. I know. Ten years ago, it used to be the case. It was sort of like use good things on your page and get a high PageRank and you'll rank well on Google. That's not the case anymore. I think PageRank is possibly responsible for, I don't know, sub 5% of the ranking algorithm today, and I think most Googlers would tell you that as well.

Do not use it for valuing link prospects. A lot of cases, I'll see someone say, "Oh, you know, I have this great opportunity. It looks like a great page. It is sitting at CNN.com/articles/012345, but it has a PageRank of 0 or 1. I don't really know if I want that link." Oh my God! You want that link! It's on CNN! What? Come on! PageRank of the actual page, please, use better metrics. Think about things like domain authority. Think about things like page authority. Think about things like, does that PageRank well, is it relevant, is it on a good site, is it useful, is it going to pass good anchor text, are good visitors going to come from there? Don't be thinking about PageRank as your primary metric for valuing link prospects. You can use it in the sense of, hey, let's see if Google might have penalized this page or site for selling links. Maybe that would be worth checking out.

Finally, don't use it as a key metric for reporting. PageRank is not a KPI for anyone and never should be. If someone is coming to you to do SEO and they say, "Hey, you know, we'd really like to improve our PageRank," say no, because PageRank will not send you more visits. It will not send you more business. It will not make your website better in any way. It will not improve your conversion rate. It won't bring you more Twitter followers. It is not going to make your life any better in any way. So please don't report it as a key metric and don't request that it be reported as a key metric. It is generally useless as a KPI. You might consider looking at it just to make sure that you haven't been penalized or that things aren't going terribly wrong. But if you see your PageRank go up by 1 or down by 1, look at your visits. Look at your traffic. Look at how many keywords are sending you referrals. Those are key performance indicators for SEO, not PageRank.

The last thing, possibly the thing that upsets me the most, because I think a lot of experienced SEOs should know this, and many don't. I am not quite sure where this miscommunication happens or why, but PageRank is for pages only. You'd think that would be obvious since it's in the name. Right? It's not called domain rank. It's called PageRank. I know, technically it refers to Larry's last name, Larry Page, not page rank. We're lucky Brin didn't use it or, I don't know, God forbid, I'd created Google. It would be called FishkinRank. That would be horrible.

But PageRank measures pages. Right? So, when you see someone say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I have a PageRank 6 domain," you have my permission to call baloney on them. You can even use something stronger if you would like, because there is no such thing as a PageRank 6 domain. There is a domain whose home page may indeed have a PageRank score of 6, but that is measuring that home page's link importance and that home page's PageRank, not the importance of the domain as a whole. So, you will find dozens, hundreds, thousands of sites who have a PageRank on their home page that is smaller than what their internal pages might have. For years, SEOmoz had a PageRank of 5 on our home page, but we had a PageRank of 7 on one of our articles and PageRank of 6 on another one. It is not describing how important your domain is. It never is. There is no such thing as domain PageRank.
Credits = Aaron Wheeler SEOMOZ
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
PageRank, toolbar PageRank, is updated randomly. By randomly, I mean, it's been as long as 11 months in some cases between a toolbar PageRank update, meaning that a site's actual PageRank might have jumped up a bunch or gone down a bunch, but Google won't change the metric that they show for 11 months, and then recently we had a PageRank update that only took about one month. It used to be that it would happen every month. Now it is very inconsistent. I think the last ordering was there was a month between the last update. Then it was six months before that. It was about five months before that. It was like three months before that. So it is inconsistent. It is a little random. It is when someone at Google decides to turn on that meter. So you don't really know when the next update is coming, nor do you necessarily know how recent your PageRank is, the PageRank that is being reported in the toolbar, unless you check when the last update occurred. So that's an important thing to notice.

*ahem oxy all you've done is prove me right...:rolleyes::eek:
 
wrong.jpg
 
*ahem oxy all you've done is prove me right...:rolleyes::eek:
But you can't deny the fact PR sells sites and links and that is what we are
all about.
I personally would rather have contextual links then spam PR links for a money site. But if I were just going to flip it I'd take them from where ever and high PR
certainly does the job for that.


PageRank is useful as a raw indication of link popularity. Meaning that, PageRank doesn't take into account anchor text. It doesn't take into account whether the sites are related to each other. It doesn't take into account whether some of the sites maybe have been flagged for spam. It doesn't take into account whether the page is relevant to the actual search query. All it says is, in terms of the raw link popularity, the how many pages are pointed to this and how important the pages are that link to this, how important is this on the grand scale of the Web? Remember, the most important site on the web will be a 10, and everything else will fall back from that. So, as the most important sites on the Web gain tons of links, Facebook for example, Twitter for example, everything else is going to be scaled down a little bit. You might have seen in this recent PageRank update, the last couple, that a lot of sites took hits. Big important sites. Nasa.gov went down, Yahoo went down, Google.com fell from a 10 to a 9. That's crazy. That's amazing. What happens there is essentially the most important sites, this is my opinion, but the most important sites are essentially pushing out the boundary of what it takes to be a 10 and then those other sites are falling along the curve somewhere.

Credit = Aaron Wheeler SEOMOZ
 
Last edited:
But you can't deny the fact PR sells sites and links and that is what we are
all about.
I personally would rather have contextual links then spam PR links for a money site. But if I were just going to flip it I'd take them from where ever and high PR
certainly does the job for that.

Without being rude to you guys you're trying to shout me down on the truth. I'm not talking about the best way to sell stuff. If you're selling then why not take advantage of the PR nuts around.

You have all posted suggesting basically i'm an "idiot".

Then, then someone posts seomoz stuff (i hate seomoz personally) that backs me up.

I don't mean to offend but i'm not even an internet marketer (i'm inhouse for my property company) and i know more than 99% of people who claim to be seos.
 
Saying "Why are you all pagerank mad" ... show me one person on BHW who is hung up on PR as a ranking factor. No one here needs to be saved by your revelation that PR isn't everything to consider when rankng a website. Go save people at DP.

Why are all PR trolls morons? Thats the question I want answered.
 
I don't mean to offend but i'm not even an internet marketer (i'm inhouse for my property company)
Then why are you even here?
This is a black hat IM forum. PR is of value to us because we use it to our advantage. If it's of no use to you fine but don't come on here slagging off
our methods when frankly you don't even know the first thing about black hat IM.
 
Without being rude to you guys you're trying to shout me down on the truth. I'm not talking about the best way to sell stuff. If you're selling then why not take advantage of the PR nuts around.

You're right and you're wrong:

- yes, toolbar PR is out of date. No one is contesting that.

- no, that doesn't make it invalid for buying decisions. For the simple reasons that:
a) toolbar PR rarely goes down significantly. The only reasons for minor drops in PR are a slowing of link acquisition in relation to the rest of the web or a recalibration of toolbar PR. For example, in adult for a long time the maximum possible PR was 6, then they shifted it to 5 so all the big PR 6 sites went down a notch.
b) The exception to this is PR 0s or grey bars are generally applied immediately with no wait until the next toolbar export. Thus, if you see a page has a PR 6 (and it's not faked) then, regardless of the unknowable "real" current PR, you can still be reasonably certain that it's a significant page and you are going to get some benefit from buying a link there.

- BHW is not "pagerank mad" and the "PR doesn't matter' mantra is chanted here daily.

- most people base their link buying decisions on a number of factors and not just PR eg. Alexa and other traffic measures, backlink counts in the main tools, number of outgoing links and link position on the page etc. This goes for buying domains as well as buying backlinks.

- as has already been stated, link buying is an art not a science and however flawed, toolbar PR is still one of the best ballpark tools we have.

You have all posted suggesting basically i'm an "idiot".

Your attitude in this thread quite clearly demarcates you as a complete idiot, and that's quite apart from the gaping holes in your logical abilities that leave you ignorant of why toolbar PR is still a useful tool that should be utilized as appropriate.

I don't mean to offend but i'm not even an internet marketer (i'm inhouse for my property company) and i know more than 99% of people who claim to be seos.

Do us all a favour and fuck off then! Please!
 
Not sure why we are even bothering to argue with the OP as he is obviously is a DP reject.. anyway as some else has said one of the few measures we have of what google thinks of a site is PR. Yes it isn't perfect but at least it is something to consider when building your mix of backlinks. The other way we could get high quality backlinks from google trusted sites is to do a search for your keyword and beg the top 20 sites to give you a backlink! and we all know how that will pan out dont we? They aren't in the top 20 because they are stupid.
 
Saying "Why are you all pagerank mad" ... show me one person on BHW who is hung up on PR as a ranking factor. No one here needs to be saved by your revelation that PR isn't everything to consider when rankng a website. Go save people at DP..

Wow, you New Yorkers are a laugh a minute. (sorry you're not the NY chap)

Open your eyes "dude" this site is full of the same posts every day "only get high pr ones" "this is a high pr" " i will only exchange with pr 2 or above"

Everone is outside of my truth here bar a small few, i'm helping them to see the light.
 
Last edited:
Then why are you even here?
This is a black hat IM forum. PR is of value to us because we use it to our advantage. If it's of no use to you fine but don't come on here slagging off
our methods when frankly you don't even know the first thing about black hat IM.

I'm here because i find seo very interesting and like to see what spammers are up to sorry if it offends you.
 
You're right and you're wrong:

- yes, toolbar PR is out of date. No one is contesting that.

Err, yes people here are contesting, some here have made laughable statements. Why you getting all excited posting your pictures and trying to impress others with your swearing.


- no, that doesn't make it invalid for buying decisions. For the simple reasons that:
a) toolbar PR rarely goes down significantly. The only reasons for minor drops in PR are a slowing of link acquisition in relation to the rest of the web or a recalibration of toolbar PR. For example, in adult for a long time the maximum possible PR was 6, then they shifted it to 5 so all the big PR 6 sites went down a notch.
b) The exception to this is PR 0s or grey bars are generally applied immediately with no wait until the next toolbar export. Thus, if you see a page has a PR 6 (and it's not faked) then, regardless of the unknowable "real" current PR, you can still be reasonably certain that it's a significant page and you are going to get some benefit from buying a link there.
Still if it shows pr6 it could be pr0'd the following update. I have seen enough to know what im talking about sweety.

- BHW is not "pagerank mad" and the "PR doesn't matter' mantra is chanted here daily.
Well i must just click on the threads full of doughnuts then :D

- most people base their link buying decisions on a number of factors and not just PR eg. Alexa and other traffic measures, backlink counts in the main tools, number of outgoing links and link position on the page etc. This goes for buying domains as well as buying backlinks.
Jee, don't get me started on alexa :D

Those are good metrics to buy on, the majority of business here though is unrelated blog roll links with "high pr".

- as has already been stated, link buying is an art not a science and however flawed, toolbar PR is still one of the best ballpark tools we have.
As stated in the seomoz text posted, it isn't the best metric as i'm trying to explain sweety.

Your attitude in this thread quite clearly demarcates you as a complete idiot, and that's quite apart from the gaping holes in your logical abilities that leave you ignorant of why toolbar PR is still a useful tool that should be utilized as appropriate.
No attitude here.

Do us all a favour and fuck off then! Please!
As i said i like seo and like to see what the lesser people of ability compared to me get up to. I'm currently working on sideline businesses for my lil sister to run, such as page ones for electronic cigarettes where google display no ads. Even though i have the cash i won't be basing link buy on pr :D
 
"only get high pr ones"

BS. Show me.

"this is a high pr"

So? PR is a ranking factor, as mentioned thoroughly in this thread. Pointing out a source of PR is something that is of benefit.

" i will only exchange with pr 2 or above"

BS. Show me.

Everone is outside of my truth here bar a small few, i'm helping them to see the light.

You're delusional.

You're a troll. You've attempted to sell links here with toolbar PR on one hand (using toolbar PR as the only selling factor), while on the other denouncing toolbar PR as being of no use.

This is my last post in this thread -- done feeding the troll.
 
Not sure why we are even bothering to argue with the OP as he is obviously is a DP reject.. anyway as some else has said one of the few measures we have of what google thinks of a site is PR. Yes it isn't perfect but at least it is something to consider when building your mix of backlinks. The other way we could get high quality backlinks from google trusted sites is to do a search for your keyword and beg the top 20 sites to give you a backlink! and we all know how that will pan out dont we? They aren't in the top 20 because they are stupid.

I don't know what dp is.

You're making sweeping statements that are just derogatory and unhelpful to the debate.
 
What's that sound?

Oh... it's your boss telling you that your lunch break is over.

Protip: SEOs who can get real results in competitive global markets don't work for a salary.
 
Back
Top