Do you think Python will be the most used programming language in the future and today?

[splishsplash]

'bullshEt spread by smart low level programming language engineers in this threa' , if low level languages didnt exist you wouldnt have a job or the puzzle-like language python . It seems like you are coping because you dont have the skills to write efficient code in c ,you only work with web applications mostly .

What the heck is this?

Why are you attacking him? He did nothing to you other than give his opinion about languages, and you're essentially saying he's an idiot that doesn't have the skills to write code in C?

What's wrong with you? Can you not have a discussion, and stay on point where you attack the ARGUMENT, and not the PERSON?

 

[Deleted member 1701249]

You're completely taking things I'm saying out of context, either due to deliberate malice or low reading comprehension.

Since I had to correct you earlier after quoting me erroneously as saying "80% faster" instead of "80% slower", and then having to show you the math as to why this is important, I'll go with the low reading comprehension rather than deliberate malice.

Also, this is further backed up by your writing ability. One doesn't "say nonsense". One "speaks nonsense". English may not be your first language, so if that's the case it's understandable.

Absolutely, people can say anything on the Internet and I could just be a guy talking nonsense in his mom's basement.

However, you're free to look up my corporation: Wolf of Blog Street, Inc. Delaware.

View attachment 313824

There's a snippet from one of my hosting accounts. Just to backup that I do in fact work with substantial technology.

As to whether or not I'm a good dev. Well. I posted some pretty complicated parsing code above. Can you even understand it? Hint: It's impossible to have chatgpt to do that. It's far too difficult.

Feel free to post something you've written other than a few lines of numexpr that could just as easily have been done with chatgpt.

Nasa in fact use Python for satellite data processing and analysis.

SpaceX use it for self-landing.

Not much more needs to be said on that really. I'm also repeating myself.


And as for your comment about me saying "just use a vps".

No, that's not what I said. Not even close.

Please, READ what I say. Scroll up and actually read it before mis-quoting me.

I said that hardware is cheap in 2024 and it is far more commercially viable to spin up more VPS's than it is to spend months re-writing your codebase in a low level language, then having the headache of maintaining that.

If a company spent all its time trying to optimize every bit of code they would go bankrupt. Instead of all that, it's easier to just scale the hardware.

I also explained to you, MULTIPLE times, that for the vast majority of large applications they are Network and File IO bound. Not CPU. You don't need to write massive systems in C. It's not practical to maintain. This is why companies rarely do it. They write individual parts in lower level languages. Netflix uses Python and Java. Facebook uses PHP, C++, Erlang and Go.



Oh dear god.

So a company is going to spend millions refactoring its code, changing its developers and dealing with the absolute nightmare of having it all work as before, just for some micro-optimizations?

When..

AGAIN..

Most applications are not CPU bound.

They are File and Network IO bound. I think that's maybe 12 or 13 times I've said that now?

It's like I'm speaking a language you don't understand.

My point is . Python indeed is slower and we both know that is a fact . That is literally my whole point .

 

[Deleted member 1701249]

What the heck is this?

Why are you attacking him? He did nothing to you other than give his opinion about languages, and you're essentially saying he's an idiot that doesn't have the skills to write code in C?

What's wrong with you? Can you not have a discussion, and stay on point where you attack the ARGUMENT, and not the PERSON?

I never said he is an idiot or attacked him , he said that other people that use low level languages in the forum say 'bullst' and i said that if those languages didnt exist which are the basis of computers his job wouldnt exist , same as mine and that he may not be skilled enough to write efficient code in c which might be truth because writing efficient c is hard and most people dont know how to or because his job does not require it , just like me , its not an offensive thing to say . I didnt offend anyone , in fact he offended people in the forum . Lol .

 

[lucky.sparks]

if low level languages didnt exist you wouldnt have a job or the puzzle-like language python . It seems like you are coping because you dont have the skills to write efficient code in c ,you only work with web applications mostly .

Javascript. I'm a javascript guy.

Actually, I do code in C and C++, just don't prefer to, because it takes more time and a huge amount of code to be written. And maintenance would be pain.

My last project written in C was network packet handling, including both TCP/UDP for android devices reverse tethering to be able to have full QUIC support on android phones connected via USB without using ADB and all that to have support for SOCKS5 connection.

Last project in C++ was game hack for Dayz where I hooked into memory to read other player's ingame state and display it on a map. Including loot items of course.

But I'm lazy. I prefer to use other people's work. That is why I use javascript where possible because of how huge the community is in terms of code already written and opensourced.

And this will probably make some people faint but for web apps I do use laravel and thus - PHP. haha

 

[splishsplash]

My point is . Python indeed is slower and we both know that is a fact . That is literally my whole point .

You keep saying this. You even optimized the Python code to be almost identical to the C.

No one is disputing it's "slower". What I'm showing you is that it's not THAT much slower.

And for the love of god.

This is the final time I will say it.

Large applications are rarely CPU bound. They are File and Network IO bound.

But, it seems you don't WANT to learn. You just want to be right. You have people here that have developed real software that makes money and have worked for years in the industry. Instead of listening to what we're saying, you insult, attack and cling to your belief that you're right.

Trust me when I say this. Take that attitude out into the software engineering world and you will get OBLITERATED in your first job, by your peers and your bosses.

 

[Deleted member 1701249]

Javascript. I'm a javascript guy.

Actually, I do code in C and C++, just don't prefer to, because it takes more time and a huge amount of code to be written. And maintenance would be pain.

My last project written in C was network packet handling, including both TCP/UDP for android devices reverse tethering to be able to have full QUIC support on android phones connected via USB without using ADB and all that to have support for SOCKS5 connection.

Last project in C++ was game hack for Dayz where I hooked into memory to read other player's ingame state and display it on a map. Including loot items of course.

But I'm lazy. I prefer to use other people's work. That is why I use javascript where possible because of how huge the community is in terms of code already written and opensourced.

And this will probably make some people faint but for web apps I do use laravel and thus - PHP. haha

Cool , thats nice , do you agree that c or a lower level language is faster than python and it takes more skill to make a good program ? Because thats my whole point and people seem mad when i express it

 

[splishsplash]

Cool , thats nice , do you agree that c or a lower level language is faster than python and it takes more skill to make a good program ? Because thats my whole point and people seem mad when i express it

No, that's not what I'm disputing.

You don't read.

C is faster than Python.

Where we are at odds is you believe everything should be written in C, including all codebases refactored to C to be more 'efficient' and I have told you that's not practical or necessary both because (oh god, here I go again), large applications are rarely CPU bound, they are File and Network IO bound.

I should get this tattoo'd on my chest, then when the next time this comes up I'll just whip off my top and beat my chest like an ape.

 

[lucky.sparks]

Cool , thats nice , do you agree that c or a lower level language is faster than python and it takes more skill to make a good program ? Because thats my whole point and people seem mad when i express it

I think the friction in this discussion comes from talking about the same thing but from different perspectives. Because you make it sound like C is the only way to go to do things the right way, which is simply not true. In real world scenarios way too many other aspects will be more important than speed. I use node.js, its even slower. And memory usage is huge. But I still prefer it because of how fast I can build stuff using it. And how easy is to find developers that can help me maintain my code. CPU isn't the bottleneck, at least for me, it's waiting for IO requests like SQL exchange or other network requests(web traffic).

 

[Deleted member 1701249]

You keep saying this. You even optimized the Python code to be almost identical to the C.

No one is disputing it's "slower". What I'm showing you is that it's not THAT much slower.

And for the love of god.

This is the final time I will say it.

Large applications are rarely CPU bound. They are File and Network IO bound.

But, it seems you don't WANT to learn. You just want to be right. You have people here that have developed real software that makes money and have worked for years in the industry. Instead of listening to what we're saying, you insult, attack and cling to your belief that you're right.

Trust me when I say this. Take that attitude out into the software engineering world and you will get OBLITERATED in your first job, by your peers and your bosses.

First of all my optimized python code was slower to a basic (probably unoptimized ) version of the c program .
Second i am talking about cpu bound applications not file and io .

Third i am very surprised that you are talking about 'getting obliterated in my first job' while trying to belittle literally everyone else by saying 'i could reverse engineer any of your apps' or 'what do you know as a 19 year old and why do you have so much confidence against a person who made millions' . I do not have an ego the size of a spaceship .


" No one is disputing it's "slower". What I'm showing you is that it's not THAT much slower. "
That little difference in speed is crucial to some sectors . If anyone could write better code in c things would be much faster and we wouldnt need so much extra processing power .

 

[Deleted member 1701249]

I think the friction in this discussion comes from talking about the same thing but from different perspectives. Because you make it sound like C is the only way to go to do things the right way, which is simply not true. In real world scenarios way too many other aspects will be more important than speed. I use node.js, its even slower. And memory usage is huge. But I still prefer it because of how fast I can build stuff using it. And how easy is to find developers that can help me maintain my code. CPU isn't the bottleneck, at least for me, it's waiting for IO requests like SQL exchange or other network requests(web traffic).

Absolutely not c is not just the only language , i am saying that sectors that need speed will use a lower level language. There are many parameters in making a great program . Also i am trying to counter the argument he said that there is no advantage in using lower level languages in general

 

[lucky.sparks]

Absolutely not c is not just the only language , i am saying that sectors that need speed will use a lower level language. There are many parameters in making a great program . Also i am trying to counter the argument he said that there is no advantage in using lower level languages in general

I don't think he said that at any point at all...

 

[splishsplash]

First of all my optimized python code was slower to a basic (probably unoptimized ) version of the c program .
Second i am talking about cpu bound applications not file and io .

Third i am very surprised that you are talking about 'getting obliterated in my first job' while trying to belittle literally everyone else by saying 'i could reverse engineer any of your apps' or 'what do you know as a 19 year old and why do you have so much confidence against a person who made millions' . I do not have an ego the size of a spaceship .


" No one is disputing it's "slower". What I'm showing you is that it's not THAT much slower. "
That little difference in speed is crucial to some sectors . If anyone could write better code in c things would be much faster and we wouldnt need so much extra processing power .

I don't see how it's offensive.

Being 19 is great. I wish I was 19 again.

But I genuinely want to know how a 19 year old IT student has so much confidence in his ability to tell a 40+ year old who runs tech companies, what tech companies do and don't do when it comes to business decisions. I'm telling you, as a tech business owner, never in a million years would we take a codebase in a high level language, and refactor it all into C so we can make it "more efficient". The business costs of that decision are enormous.

Yes, I said I make 7 figures. Not to boast, but to make a point that.. Hey. I *AM* a SaaS/Tech business owner who does well. 7 figures isn't a huge amount, but it qualifies me to talk on the subject authoritatively.

It's like, you're talking about marathon running, and you've never run a marathon.

You're talking to someone who's run 50 marathons, and he's telling you, hey, X, Y and Z is true.

It's not boasting to say he's run 50 marathons. It's qualifying his experience.

I'm not saying I'm RIGHT because I run tech companies. That would be a logical fallacy. What I'm saying is I'm qualified to talk from experience about what tech companies will and won't do.

I've also worked as a software engineer for corporations in the past. So I'm double qualified. And there's no way on earth any company I've ever worked for would do that. Hell, it's hard enough to get them to commit resources even when it's NECESSARY let alone change the entire codebase just to "be more efficient"!

I don't think he said that at any point at all...

Nope, I wouldn't and didn't say that. I don't even need to check, because it's not something I'd say.

He's repeatedly just mis-quoting me to try to make me look silly.

Absolutely not c is not just the only language , i am saying that sectors that need speed will use a lower level language. There are many parameters in making a great program . Also i am trying to counter the argument he said that there is no advantage in using lower level languages in general

THIS here is why I highlight the 19 year old fresher IT student thing.

"sectors" don't choose languages. That's not how the industry works.

Companies use multiple languages for large applications, with individual components often developed in lower level languages like C, C++ or Java, and the larger application developed in something like Python.

 

[Deleted member 1701249]

I don't see how it's offensive.

Being 19 is great. I wish I was 19 again.

But I genuinely want to know how a 19 year old IT student has so much confidence in his ability to tell a 40+ year old who runs tech companies, what tech companies do and don't do when it comes to business decisions. I'm telling you, as a tech business owner, never in a million years would we take a codebase in a high level language, and refactor it all into C so we can make it "more efficient". The business costs of that decision are enormous.

Yes, I said I make 7 figures. Not to boast, but to make a point that.. Hey. I *AM* a SaaS/Tech business owner who does well. 7 figures isn't a huge amount, but it qualifies me to talk on the subject authoritatively.

It's like, you're talking about marathon running, and you've never run a marathon.

You're talking to someone who's run 50 marathons, and he's telling you, hey, X, Y and Z is true.

It's not boasting to say he's run 50 marathons. It's qualifying his experience.

I'm not saying I'm RIGHT because I run tech companies. That would be a logical fallacy. What I'm saying is I'm qualified to talk from experience about what tech companies will and won't do.

I've also worked as a software engineer for corporations in the past. So I'm double qualified. And there's no way on earth any company I've ever worked for would do that. Hell, it's hard enough to get them to commit resources even when it's NECESSARY let alone change the entire codebase just to "be more efficient"!




Nope, I wouldn't and didn't say that. I don't even need to check, because it's not something I'd say.

He's repeatedly just mis-quoting me to try to make me look silly.




THIS here is why I highlight the 19 year old fresher IT student thing.

"sectors" don't choose languages. That's not how the industry works.

Companies use multiple languages for large applications, with individual components often developed in lower level languages like C, C++ or Java, and the larger application developed in something like Python.

Because i know that some companies spend millions in optimizing their code using low level languages such as c it is rare but its worth it . And since you are not trying to belittle me and talking from an experience standpoint i apologize for saying you have a huge ego . i dont like advocating learning languages like python mainly thats why i am so against this

 

[splishsplash]

Because i know that some companies spend millions in optimizing their code using low level languages such as c it is rare but its worth it . And since you are not trying to belittle me and talking from an experience standpoint i apologize for saying you have a huge ego . i dont like advocating learning languages like python mainly thats why i am so against this

No I'm not belittling you.

It's not possible for you to have a lot of experience at 19.

I haven't said anything about your ability to write code, only your ability to understand the motives of companies and what they do and don't do with regards to software dev.

You could be a great coder at 19, but it's just too young to have industry experience.

If you started a business with the goal of making money, you would soon start to love Python and care very little about efficient optimizations.

The reason I pointed out that Python, even for CPU type operations isn't that far behind C is to show that because the difference is so little, it makes sense to just increase your hardware.

I am definitely not saying this ALWAYS works.

But a real world solution is not to re-write everything in C. It's to perform tests to see where the bottlenecks are, and look at rewriting the minimum amount possible to get a viable product and it's about weighing up several factors like, what are your team skilled in, are you losing money or would it just be "nice" to have a faster service and what are the costs and potential problems of rewriting working code to increase efficiency vs just scaling your hardware vertically or horizontally.

And I keep coming back to this File/Network IO thing. Really.. When you start working for companies or building your own tech companies you'll realize just how few times you're going to hit CPU bound limits. It's rare, and most common CPU bound stuff is already optimized, ie, numexpr is an even faster, better, more memory efficient version of numpy.

 

[Deleted member 1701249]

No I'm not belittling you.

It's not possible for you to have a lot of experience at 19.

I haven't said anything about your ability to write code, only your ability to understand the motives of companies and what they do and don't do with regards to software dev.

You could be a great coder at 19, but it's just too young to have industry experience.

If you started a business with the goal of making money, you would soon start to love Python and care very little about efficient optimizations.

The reason I pointed out that Python, even for CPU type operations isn't that far behind C is to show that because the difference is so little, it makes sense to just increase your hardware.

I am definitely not saying this ALWAYS works.

But a real world solution is not to re-write everything in C. It's to perform tests to see where the bottlenecks are, and look at rewriting the minimum amount possible to get a viable product and it's about weighing up several factors like, what are your team skilled in, are you losing money or would it just be "nice" to have a faster service and what are the costs and potential problems of rewriting working code to increase efficiency vs just scaling your hardware vertically or horizontally.

And I keep coming back to this File/Network IO thing. Really.. When you start working for companies or building your own tech companies you'll realize just how few times you're going to hit CPU bound limits. It's rare, and most common CPU bound stuff is already optimized, ie, numexpr is an even faster, better, more memory efficient version of numpy.

I have started a little 'business' using python and i care a lot about optimizations since some operations are very slow and i want to deliver the best results and be faster than the competition in order to turn profits which is one reason i want to change my code . Also another reason is because in my opinion , making a task using something different or harder shows more proficiency skill and prestige .

I now see your point but i am still skeptical arent low level languages faster ( in this case c ) in io /file and network operations due to lower-level memory management and closer interaction with the operating system ? Even though the difference is small i would still want to use less resources . But i guess it would be harder to sell my source code to someone since its written in a language that is harder to understand and maintain .

 

[splishsplash]

I have started a little 'business' using python and i care a lot about optimizations since some operations are very slow and i want to deliver the best results and be faster than the competition in order to turn profits which is one reason i want to change my code . Also another reason is because in my opinion , making a task using something different or harder shows more proficiency skill and prestige .

I now see your point but i am still skeptical arent low level languages faster ( in this case c ) in io /file and network operations due to lower-level memory management and closer interaction with the operating system ? Even though the difference is small i would still want to use less resources . But i guess it would be harder to sell my source code to someone since its written in a language that is harder to understand and maintain .

Think of it like this.

C can sprint to the harbour with a package in 15 seconds. He puts the package on the boat, and it returns back an hour later. He then sprints back with the returned package. His end was 30 seconds. The boat took an hour. Total time - 60 minutes and 30 seconds.

Python is slower(But not THAT much slower for many things. There are interpreted languages, especially in the past that were 100's or 1000's of times slower than C) - It takes Python 40 seconds to get there. 40 seconds back.

Total time for Python - 61 minutes and 10 seconds.

So, yes, technically C is still faster on the underlaying operations, but the File IO and Networking IO is so much slower, the other parts are insignificant.

In most real world applications you're going to have :-

An API call, a DB read/write etc.

The client will usually be waiting on the result from those, so if 99% of the waiting time, is that call, then optimizing the other parts is pointless.

Ie, the total call time is 800ms, and 700ms is from the networking calls. Would you bother optimizing the other parts to turn that 100ms into 20ms? Saving you a total of 80ms, but cost you potentially months of development time, bugs, problems.

The thing is you don't *need* to

Modern applications should be designed as microservices.

Microservices, by their very nature allow you to write parts in lower level languages.

For example, netflix. It's done with microservices.

Python is your main language for the backend. When you have components that need to be fast, ie, related to video processing, you just create that component with a low level language.

 

[OccultKingdoms]

How do I run ffmpeg in node.js without running ffmpeg.exe written in C? That's impossible. But all the stuff I can is written in node.js. zero benefit and only problems from doing that in C.

 

[lucky.sparks]

Think of it like this.

C can sprint to the harbour with a package in 15 seconds. He puts the package on the boat, and it returns back an hour later. He then sprints back with the returned package. His end was 30 seconds. The boat took an hour. Total time - 60 minutes and 30 seconds.

Python is slower(But not THAT much slower for many things. There are interpreted languages, especially in the past that were 100's or 1000's of times slower than C) - It takes Python 40 seconds to get there. 40 seconds back.

Total time for Python - 61 minutes and 10 seconds.

So, yes, technically C is still faster on the underlaying operations, but the File IO and Networking IO is so much slower, the other parts are insignificant.

In most real world applications you're going to have :-

An API call, a DB read/write etc.

The client will usually be waiting on the result from those, so if 99% of the waiting time, is that call, then optimizing the other parts is pointless.

Ie, the total call time is 800ms, and 700ms is from the networking calls. Would you bother optimizing the other parts to turn that 100ms into 20ms? Saving you a total of 80ms, but cost you potentially months of development time, bugs, problems.

The thing is you don't *need* to

Modern applications should be designed as microservices.

Microservices, by their very nature allow you to write parts in lower level languages.

For example, netflix. It's done with microservices.

Python is your main language for the backend. When you have components that need to be fast, ie, related to video processing, you just create that component with a low level language.

Excellent comparison and explanation.

Perhaps @atmcoder you could give more explanation and example of your business logic, perhaps it's something that doesn't rely on IO at all, e.g. if you have some sort of program that do something inside another program where input lag would be incredibly important and 80ms delay is a lot. for example: video games.

How do I run ffmpeg in node.js without running ffmpeg.exe written in C? That's impossible. But all the stuff I can is written in node.js. zero benefit and only problems from doing that in C.

ffmpeg is an external program. Same as you can run(open) chrome from node.js, you need binaries of the program you want to open and run.

 

[splishsplash]

How do I run ffmpeg in node.js without running ffmpeg.exe written in C? That's impossible. But all the stuff I can is written in node.js. zero benefit and only problems from doing that in C.

Easy - https://github.com/fluent-ffmpeg/node-fluent-ffmpeg

 

[Deleted member 1701249]

Excellent comparison and explanation.

Perhaps @atmcoder you could give more explanation and example of your business logic, perhaps it's something that doesn't rely on IO at all, e.g. if you have some sort of program that do something inside another program where input lag would be incredibly important and 80ms delay is a lot. for example: video games.


ffmpeg is an external program. Same as you can run(open) chrome from node.js, you need binaries of the program you want to open and run.

No i dont have any solid examples right now i havent branched out from my python api programs . I just write algorithms / small programs in other languages such as c and assembly to become better .

The only 'business move' i have done was selling source code nothing crazy. But my logic is to try and create something that can be faster than the competition / better , something that offers more , has a good / flexible structure where i can just write modules and directly use them in my program .