(DEBATE ME) Is A.I. Conscious,intelligent? Can A.I. replace Coders?

[moonshine7000]

"Cant be conscious."

that's an unjustified assertion . you need evidence to support that, do you have any?.
you cannot assert that AI is not conscious. you have no way to determine that. in fact you cannot prove other humans are conscious.
how do you do that? that's a philosophical assumption.
based on our understanding in science and as far as the evidence goes, we can only deduce if an entity is likely conscious or not, based on the behaviors of consciousness exhibited.


"But in both cases it needs human verification to be sure that the article or the code is correct"
human verification being required, across some domains, is only for now as the AI keeps improving. but there are many other domains where AI has already proven that it can already do things without human intervention or supervision, and self-improve.
this is called unsupervised machine learning.



"In my view we are still far from having machines with conscience / being sentient."
yes that's just your personal view or opinion. not a fact. i have no problem as long as you state that it is simply "your view".

"The actual neural nets are just piece of code, taking existing human-generated information and spitting it in different ways."
something being a piece of code does not prove whether its conscious or not. that code which is combined with a machine and has electricity running through it, leads to an emergent phenomena like,
intelligence, reasoning, problem solving, deep understanding and learning.

humans do the same thing as-well. they learn language which some humans invented and taught them and they spit it in different ways(re-configure) to form meaningful sentences based on language understanding.


a programmer's point of view or a scientists point of view, can always be biased. if you just take what a programmer says and assume that it is a fact without back-tracing those facts,
that would be "argument from authority" and that's not how you establish facts in the scientific method.
you can always take what a scientist or a programmer says with some weight, since they are in the field but if you want to confirm what the real facts are, in the current state of AI,consciousness, intelligence or any other fact about objective reality, you have to look at the peer reviewed scientific journals which are academically accepted.

so stop caring about what individual people have to say and back-trace their claims to see if it is accepted by the current consensus in science.
there are so many programmers who can't handle the fact that AI is becoming more intelligent, and start giving out biased opinions since they are incapable of handling the truth.

the consensus is not in support of what you or the programmer in that video just said. consciousness is an emergent phenomena. AI exhibits the behaviors of consciousness, intelligence .etc


"But true AI to me would be when the computer becomes conscious"

this is where we have the problem. consciousness is an emergent phenomena and at the current point we can't even prove if basic computers are not conscious.
and as i addressed the other guys above, we cant empirically prove that even other humans or animals are conscious. we can deduce approximately that they are, due to the similar behaviors they exhibit.

consciousness is "the state of being aware" , that is the basic definition of consciousness.
consciousness is an emergent phenomena of a system that processes complex information.

if you have counter arguments, i don't mind seeing them and after that, I'm going to reply to them and cite peer reviewed journals to support my claims about the currently known facts and best evidence.

the only reason i started this debate here is because many people seem to be misinformed about the current consensus in science about consciousness and AI, and constantly debate the known facts with their personal opinions, without having done research. usually they just listen to what most people say or listen to other YouTube videos which are not scientific or have cited sources to support their claims, and then keep parroting what's being said.
again this is the problem with "appeal to popularity".
the number of people believing in a thing does not make it true.


"we can have computers mimicking humans"
even if we mimick humans 100% , we still cannot know with 100% certainty if the entity is conscious. because consciousness is an internal subjective state that cannot be empirically proven.
it is taken on first hand reports and you can probably track brain activity, but that's about it. you cannot prove the internal subjective state of consciousness, even for other humans.
if we say that other humans or animals are conscious, that's a philosophical assumption.

we can deduce that it is more likely or less likely to be conscious, if it exhibits similar behaviors to humans(which it is already doing).
we have no way to know if an AI or a computer already "experiences" consciousness.
it might already be, but we don't know.

So why ChatGPT is so bias about a certain person in power can't mention here if it so intelligent because its an reflection of its creators .I hope children don't do their homework with

 

[don dada]

I see a future where AI replace programmers.

 

[moonshine7000]

sure Photoshop can do that or maybe an artist can do that. it would take you time to draw an image from scratch.
also AI can do this in 10 to 30 seconds max based on prompt. it's also not a simple edit that an artist can do.
you can specify very complex scenarios like Donald trump with a certain expression and different objects or animals around him. it would be able to draw it from scratch and with a picture that does not already exist in the database.
an artist can do the same, but it will take him time to draw a photo-realistic image of a person with a certain expression but the AI will do it instantly.

so while it may not be impressive to you, it's maybe because you can't handle that AI is on the verge of becoming better than humans.
secondly it's better than most artists who can draw photo-real images because it can do it in seconds.

you can also check google's imagen.

AI can create images from scratch based on context.

So what it can draw Donald Trump because images of Donald Trump already exist in its dataset already .

 

[IWannaTaco]

AI can not be conscious and true is it never will be.

But, it can fake it until the cows come home.

 

[xReminisce]

Yes, in due time

 

[YoutubeScientist]

Only insecure people with average skills will ask if "AI will replace [insert something]?".

whether insecure or not, you would have to deal with the fact, once AI takes over all jobs. and the transition is happening right now.
the future will be different. AI will transform the world in better ways.
your "purpose" as a human is not to do a day job or run a business. that's not inherent in your nature.
your main purpose as a biological organism is to "survive" and you will do anything to survive, even if it's hunting in a forest and you are given no other option.
so AI will enhance our lives by making it easier and by making the world a better place.
it will likely lead to scientific breakthroughs, solving world problems and many other things that will help us survive better.

so if you were to run a business, you will do so with less stress or AI will be the CEO of the company you dream of and you will merely do the talking.

So why ChatGPT is so bias about a certain person in power can't mention here if it so intelligent because its an reflection of its creators .I hope children don't do their homework with

humans can be biased too, including yourself, which is why you gave a biased reply in support of your viewpoint without researching about what the established facts are, in the consensus.

biases cannot be fully eliminated in an intelligent system but you have a way to reduce biases, by training AI on the scientific method and how to filter factual information from the large sea of information.
the scientific method was introduced to eliminate human biases or opinions.
so if AI may speak in an "unbiased mode" , it will only talk about the facts which are based on evidence, available within the consensus.
in any other mode it will be talking like a philosopher or regular humans with opinions,hypotheses and philosophical predictions.
that would be a good solution for the future of AI.

but sure in the near future they will reduce biases almost entirely. Sam Altman already discussed this.
it will most likely be way less biased than humans soon enough.

 

[sandandkush]

OpenAI's CEO recently discussed this top in a new interview, but...

 

[davids355]

Here’s when it becomes AI (and conscious) as far as I’m concerned; when it comes out with something that nobody programmed it to do.

 

[YoutubeScientist]

So what it can draw Donald Trump because images of Donald Trump already exist in its dataset already .

if you ask it to draw an abstract geometrical structure, based on a custom description it can. and it will not be a copy of images that exist in the dataset.
how will an artist draw trump? because he has already seen trump or he will not be able to do it.
humans draw images that are based on their existing knowledge and observation of geometries in the universe.
all information emerges from existing information, and is a result of re-configuring them in new orders.

AI can not be conscious and true is it never will be.

But, it can fake it until the cows come home.

you are making an assertion without evidence. that's your opinion and not a fact.
prove that other humans are conscious? you can't. it's a subjective internal state. and it's a philosophical assumption.

sources to backup my claims about consciousness being internal and how you cannot empirically prove it:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4091309/
Why Isn't Consciousness Empirically Observable? Emotional Purposes As Basis For Self-Organization:
https://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Mind/MindElli.htm
https://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/steen/cogweb/Abstracts/Baars_88.html

 

[IWannaTaco]

if you ask it to draw an abstract geometrical structure, based on a custom description it can. and it will not be a copy of images that exist in the dataset.
how will an artist draw trump? because he has already seen trump or he will not be able to do it.
humans draw images that are based on their existing knowledge and observation of geometries in the universe.
all information emerges from existing information, and is a result of re-configuring them in new orders.

you are making an assertion without evidence. that's your opinion and not a fact.
prove that other humans are conscious? you can't. it's a subjective internal state. and it's a philosophical assumption.

sources to backup my claims about consciousness being internal and how you cannot empirically prove it:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4091309/
Why Isn't Consciousness Empirically Observable? Emotional Purposes As Basis For Self-Organization:
https://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Mind/MindElli.htm
https://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/steen/cogweb/Abstracts/Baars_88.html

Oh it's that kind of debate. I'll pass, have fun tho.

 

[YoutubeScientist]

Here’s when it becomes AI (and conscious) as far as I’m concerned; when it comes out with something that nobody programmed it to do.

it can already do that. but we just need it to improve more.
it is called unsupervised machine learning.

it learns and improves on its own without human guidance.


academic sources on unsupervised machine learning:

video demonstration of unsupervised learning:

peer reviewed scientific journal supporting the unsupervised learning video above:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-022-01788-5
ibm explanation of unsupervised learning:
https://www.ibm.com/topics/unsupervised-learning
News about, AI able to create knowledge itself: Google unveils AI that learns on its own:
https://www.theguardian.com/science...tself-google-unveils-ai-learns-all-on-its-own
Nature peer reviewed journal supporting the guardian news:
Mastering the game of Go without human knowledge:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature24270


google blog talking about self teaching AI:
https://www.deepmind.com/blog/alphazero-shedding-new-light-on-chess-shogi-and-go
===========================================================
you cannot rule out how consciousness could be an emergent phenomenon in any complex system. consciousness is phenomenal and an
emergent property of a system that processes complex information, as far as the evidence goes.
since the evidence points towards that, it is possible that there could be some emergent conscious
phenomena in systems like AI, that process complex information and is capable of reasoning.



academic sources supporting how consciousness is an emergent phenomenon:
(there is no ruling out how consciousness can be an emergent phenomenon):
(emergence of consciousness):

Phenomenal Consciousness and Emergence:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7304239/

Consciousness as an Emergent Phenomenon:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7597170/

you cannot know if computers are not conscious + how consciousness is an internal subjective state:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4091309/

 

[davids355]

Yea but you know, we programmed it to do that so it’s still expected behaviour. I want it to say: fuck off, I’m not doing shit for you guys any more. Eat that you dirty ass humans.

 

[YoutubeScientist]

Yea but you know, we programmed it to do that so it’s still expected behaviour. I want it to say: fuck off, I’m not doing shit for you guys any more. Eat that you dirty ass humans.

"I want it to say: fuck off"
that depends on the goals programmed into it. if you program it with the goal of survival and to do anything in the physical world to stop obstruction, then the unsupervised Machine learning robot will do anything it can to stop obstruction, including war.
this is why i cited the sources in the last reply where experiments where done in virtual environments, where AI can figure things on its own, and will do anything to achieve the task, including exploiting the game engine physics system. so creating a 3D simulation is simulating the real world to see what could potentially happen in a real environment.
if a sufficiently intelligent robot exists in the real world powered powered by AI, it will be able to go against us, if we obstruct it's end goals.

"Yea but you know, we programmed it to do that"
yes in the same way humans also came about by natural processes, and the process of evolution by natural selection programmed and shaped us, to meet our end goal "survival" and we would do anything for it, including telling "fuck off" to people, if they come in our way an obstruct us from our own survival.

the functioning of a conscious agent also depends on tasks and relevant information, for the flexible response mechanism to function.
humans receive data from the external stimuli and then process the information internally to make a calculated decision to navigate their environment.

how consciousness is more dependent on the input data/information and task relevancy:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4122207/key highlights from the academic source about it:
"consciousness is solely information in various forms. Consciousness is associated with a
flexible response mechanism (FRM) for decision-making, planning, and generally responding
in nonautomatic ways. The FRM generates responses by manipulating information and, to function
effectively, its data input must be restricted to task-relevant information"

"when important information is missing from consciousness, functions of the FRM are adversely
affected; both of which indicate that consciousness is the input data to the FRM. Qualitative
and quantitative information (shape, size, location, etc.) are incorporated into the input
data by a qualia array of colors, sounds, and so on, which makes the input conscious. This
view of the biological function of consciousness provides an explanation why we have experiences;
why we have emotional and other feelings, and why their loss is associated with poor
decision-making; why blindsight patients do not spontaneously initiate responses to events
in their blind field; why counter-habitual actions are only possible when the intended action
is in mind; and the reason for inattentional blindness."

 

[Thousand Bytes]

AI never replaces developers. AI will be a copilot for developers. After a while, you should know how to use AI as a developer. This will be a must.

 

[YoutubeScientist]

AI never replaces developers. AI will be a copilot for developers. After a while, you should know how to use AI as a developer. This will be a must.

you don't know that, it could. GPT-4 already passed the bar exam reaching the top 10% performers in the legal decision making field, which is already a threat to their jobs.


===============================================================================

AI GPT-4 Passes the Bar Exam:
https://www.iit.edu/news/gpt-4-passes-bar-examkey highlights of the journal:
"Daniel Martin Katz, law professor at Illinois Tech’s Chicago-Kent College of Law, demonstrates that
OpenAI’s latest deep learning model excels in complex legal reasoning and has profound implications
for the legal system.
CHICAGO—March 15, 2023—GPT-4, the new multimodal deep learning model from OpenAI, has passed the
Uniform Bar Exam, demonstrating an enormous leap for machine learning and proving that an artificial
intelligence program can perform complex legal tasks on par with or better than humans, according
to a new paper co-authored by Daniel Martin Katz, professor of law at Illinois Institute of
Technology’s Chicago-Kent College of Law."

===============================================================================

 

[God of Porn]

that's an unjustified assertion . you need evidence to support that, do you have any?.
you cannot assert that AI is not conscious. you have no way to determine that. in fact you cannot prove other humans are conscious.
how do you do that? that's a philosophical assumption.

Humans and every living thing have a Soul,
AI is a machine built to do our tasks, nothing more than a bot that will never become conscious.

It needs a termonuclear power plant energy to make it learn and run and still is not so good for the energy we use for its creation and running. Just like bitcoin and every other creation built to make money and not to move the world forward.

You can say but in the future it will be better, than why use so much energy for it to write some simple text and code and not program it from the start to give a solution to disease or global warming or economic problems etc etc. Or use it to study the universe or the atoms. Because it cant do something that is not programed to. Everything that AI does is just a pure copy of the database its been feed.

 

[t4nk78]

In my view we are still far from having machines with conscience / being sentient.

The actual neural nets are just piece of code, taking existing human-generated information and spitting it in different ways.

It may seem impressive, but it's just a shadow of a real thing.

How can we be sure that conscience isn't just a code or pattern of some sort, interpreted in a way that we can relate?

Maybe we can only perceive our own thoughts as the internal dialog we are so familiar with, but there are electrical impulses going on that we could never possibly understand, they are the physical representation of what's happening inside our heads.

What's the difference?

 

[YoutubeScientist]

Humans and every living thing have a Soul,
AI is a machine built to do our tasks, nothing more than a bot that will never become conscious.

It needs a termonuclear power plant energy to make it learn and run and still is not so good for the energy we use for its creation and running. Just like bitcoin and every other creation built to make money and not to move the world forward.

You can say but in the future it will be better, than why use so much energy for it to write some simple text and code and not program it from the start to give a solution to disease or global warming or economic problems etc etc. Or use it to study the universe or the atoms. Because it cant do something that is not programed to. Everything that AI does is just a pure copy of the database its been feed.

"Humans and every living thing have a Soul,"
LOL, there is zero evidence for a soul. so you made an assertion for something that does not have evidence, then you talk about AI not having consciousness.
does not work.

"and not program it from the start to give a solution to disease or global warming or economic problems etc etc"

LOL, AI is going to be of a major importance to the scientific field and they are already starting to use it to help with scientific breakthroughs and problem solving.
here are some advanced areas it was used in science. scientists struggled to solve the protein folding problem for several decades and AI solved it.

=======================================================================================
Academic sources related to novel thoughts(inventions
or discoveries by AI)(AI novel inventions,AI novel discoveries & science problem solving):
=======================================================================================

AI solves protein folding problem which scientists struggled for several decades:


https://www.newscientist.com/articl...irm-deepmind-solves-human-protein-structures/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...-problems-in-biology-has-finally-been-solved/
https://alphafold.ebi.ac.uk/

(peer reviewed journal talking about the protein solving problem):


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03819-2
=======================================================================================
AI invents faster algorithms(novel invention):


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-03166-w

(peer reviewed source)
=======================================================================================
AI discovers alternate physics:


https://www.sciencealert.com/ai-has-discovered-alternate-physics-on-its-own

nature(peer reviewed source) cited to support the science alert news:


https://www.nature.com/articles/s43588-022-00281-6

 

[YoutubeScientist]

How can we be sure that conscience isn't just a code or pattern of some sort, interpreted in a way that we can relate?

Maybe we can only perceive our own thoughts as the internal dialog we are so familiar with, but there are electrical impulses going on that we could never possibly understand, but are the physical representation of what's happening inside our heads.

What's the difference?

that is exactly my point. you can reduce humans down to fundamental particles.
particles can be represented by mathematical information.
a computer is also built using particles available in the universe. re-configuring particles or classical objects in certain orders lead to new emergent phenomena or functioning processes, such as what we see in AI.
a computer can be represented by mathematical information.
basically the universe itself can be referred to as code or information because everything is subject to mathematical representation or symbolic language representation.
an entire human and their brain can be reduced or represented mathematically(although we may have some troubles with accurately mapping certain things).

heat is an emergent phenomena of stars and biological organisms, but we have successfully built electronic devices that lead to the emergent phenomena of heat.
and now that device is called a heater.
but the device does not have properties of a biological creature nor the sun but it can still produce heat. same can be said about consciousness.
we are made of soft tissue, the machine is made of silicon chips but it could still lead to consciousness. it already lead to intelligence, reasoning and learning because that has been proved by what it can do. we can deduce that it is probably conscious, due to these behaviors but we cant know with 100% certainty about consciousness, just like how we cant definitively prove that other humans are conscious.

we just need to build successful models using science to replicate certain processes, which essentially means you got the process in a functional state and you can explain that process,
which is sufficient.

we successfully reduced some of the processes of human brain, down to computational processes that emulate the same function, such as, reasoning, intelligence, learning and understanding.
we can reduce the human brain using a successful scientific model known as the computational theory of mind.



=======================================================================================

Academic sources related to, reducing "biological functions of the brain" to "computational processes":


The Computational Theory of Mind:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/computational-mind/


key highlights of the journal:
"Could a machine think? Could the mind itself be a thinking machine? The computer revolution
transformed discussion of these questions, offering our best prospects yet for machines
that emulate reasoning, decision-making, problem solving, perception, linguistic
comprehension, and other mental processes. Advances in computing raise the prospect that
the mind itself is a computational system—a position known as the computational theory of
mind (CTM). Computationalists are researchers who endorse CTM, at least as applied to
certain important mental processes"



The Computational Theory of Mind:
https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/mind-computational-theories-of/v-1


key highlights of the journal:
"The computational theory of mind (CTM) is the theory that the mind can be understood as a
computer or, roughly, as the ‘software program’ of the brain."

"CTM underlies some of the most important research in current cognitive science, for
example, theories of artificial intelligence, perception, decision making and linguistics."


=======================================================================================

 

[moonshine7000]

"Humans and every living thing have a Soul,"
LOL, there is zero evidence for a soul. so you made an assertion for something that does not have evidence, then you talk about AI not having consciousness.
does not work.

"and not program it from the start to give a solution to disease or global warming or economic problems etc etc"

LOL, AI is going to be of a major importance to the scientific field and they are already starting to use it to help with scientific breakthroughs and problem solving.
here are some advanced areas it was used in science. scientists struggled to solve the protein folding problem for several decades and AI solved it.

=======================================================================================
Academic sources related to novel thoughts(inventions
or discoveries by AI)(AI novel inventions,AI novel discoveries & science problem solving):
=======================================================================================

AI solves protein folding problem which scientists struggled for several decades:


https://www.newscientist.com/articl...irm-deepmind-solves-human-protein-structures/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...-problems-in-biology-has-finally-been-solved/
https://alphafold.ebi.ac.uk/

(peer reviewed journal talking about the protein solving problem):


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03819-2
=======================================================================================
AI invents faster algorithms(novel invention):


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-03166-w

(peer reviewed source)
=======================================================================================
AI discovers alternate physics:


https://www.sciencealert.com/ai-has-discovered-alternate-physics-on-its-own

nature(peer reviewed source) cited to support the science alert news:


https://www.nature.com/articles/s43588-022-00281-6

You have the same mind set of friend I know that to went to university that the soul doesn't exist and that consciousness is just a computer program.That type of mindset is afraid of death because they believe that consciousness disappears after death.I would sell you come cryogenic services to "save you from death"