Shitlist against @TheGreyMatter

[roydan]

To argue he didn't do nothing wrong. It's particularly worrisome coming from such an old member.

I didn't say that he did nothing wrong. What I said was that he didn't disgrace everything this place stands for, YET. And it was a reply to this part of your comment:

He disgraced everything this place stands for.

By looking at it as simple 'right or wrong', you disrespect the whole process.
I feel like even though the buyer essentially didn't get what he paid for, this situation is more complex than most other simple transactions. This is because the time it took, and OP's absence every once in a while. So although I think the buyer here should get his money back, this whole situation is not entierly the seller's fault.

Another thing is that business between members is not "everything this place stands for". Obviously, I agree that being an honest guy is a very important aspect of any online community. Most people don't do business here, they just hang around, read a tutorial, trying to figure things out, and exchanging advices. And all of these combined, are what this community really stands for.

 

[TheSplinter]

I didn't say that he did nothing wrong. What I said was that he didn't disgrace everything this place stands for, YET. And it was a reply to this part of your comment:


By looking at it as simple 'right or wrong', you disrespect the whole process.
I feel like even though the buyer essentially didn't get what he paid for, this situation is more complex than most other simple transactions. This is because the time it took, and OP's absence every once in a while. So although I think the buyer here should get his money back, this whole situation is not entierly the seller's fault.

Another thing is that business between members is not "everything this place stands for". Obviously, I agree that being an honest guy is a very important aspect of any online community. Most people don't do business here, they just hang around, read a tutorial, trying to figure things out, and exchanging advices. And all of these combined, are what this community really stands for.

Honestly, i'm ashamed. Then he starts crying about not making any money here, which isn't good at all for the reputation of the place. Can't make money because his product doesn't sell? What does that say to those looking to upgrade?

Now if he comes back it is going to be hard to trust him. If that was me i would have said: "Look, you're right. You deserve a refund. Unfortunely, i'm a failure, so i can't pay you everything now. Can we work something out?"

If he had said that he wouldn't have lost face. You live by the sword and you die by the sword. You can't play games with people's money. Gotta be honest.

 

[roydan]

Can't make money because his product doesn't sell? What does that say to those looking to upgrade?

It says that some services do better than others. If you think that openning a BST, or any other type of business is guaranteed to succeed you are naive.

If that was me i would have said: "Look, you're right. You deserve a refund. Unfortunely, i'm a failure, so i can't pay you everything now. Can we work something out?"

I hope you don't get to a point you have to stand behind these words.

You live by the sword and you die by the sword.

You have to calm down.

 

[TheSplinter]

It sais that some services do better than others. If you think that openning a BST, or any other type of business is guaranteed to succeed you are naive.

I know that. But upgrading is pretty much sold as paradise. You just gotta check any thread about it to see that type of rethoric completely dominates any topic about upgrading. You're gonna make a lot of money, etc, etc, etc.

I hope you don't get to a point you have to stand behind these words.

I will always make sure i ask myself this: "Can i and will i deliver what i'm selling?". I will only sell if i'm 100% sure the delivery of the product is 100% under my control. So you will get what you paid for. And any possible scenario the service may fail will be listed in the terms, so you know what possible risks you are accepting. You're not gonna buy anything from me without accepting that the service might fail or end 2 months from now for reasons outside of my control without you being refunded.

For example: If my product depends on some third party API i will tell you: If you buy this product i cannot guarantee you that the API that i need for it to work will be available forever. So you know some third party can interfere with the service. If you don't wanna run that risk, don't buy the product. But as soon as you buy the product you're saying "Ok, i accept this risk"

You gotta know how to shield yourself. It's not just about ethics. It's about protecting yourself. You gotta avoid misunderstadings, because misunderstandings will cost you a lot of money. If you don't make everything 100% clear you will have some dude going after you saying "Oh, i thought you were gonna do X and Y but you only did X and a little bit of Y for 2 days and now the Y stopped". This can't happen. You gotta say "I can't guarantee you Y. You may or may not have Y. "

 

[roydan]

I know that. But upgrading is pretty much sold as paradise. You just gotta check any thread about it to see that type of rethoric completely dominates any topic about upgrading. You're gonna make a lot of money, etc, etc, etc.

Upgrading is a no brainer, but this is not the place to discuss it. I'll just point out that having a BST is not the most common way of monetizing this upgrade.

I will always make sure i ask myself this: "Can i and will i deliver what i'm selling?". I will only sell if i'm 100% sure the delivery of the product is 100% under my control. So you will get what you paid for. And any possible scenario the service may fail will be listed in the terms, so you know what possible risks you are accepting.

For example: If my product depends on some third party API i will tell you: If you buy this product i cannot guarantee you that the API that i need for it to work will be available forever. So you know some third party can interfere with the service. If you don't wanna run that risk, don't buy the product.

You gotta know how to shield yourself. It's not just about ethics. It's about protecting yourself. You gotta avoid misunderstadings, because misunderstandings will cost you a lot of money. If you don't make everything 100% clear you will have some dude going after you saying "Oh, i thought you were gonna do X and Y but you only did X and a little bit of Y for 2 days and now the Y stopped". This can't happen. You gotta say "I can't guarantee you Y. You may or may not have Y. "

Well done, I just hope your BST will have room for some copywriting between all of these disclaimers. Nothing is simple when you try to balance these things in the real life.
You can't always have a list of things you can't guarantee while you try to recruit clients. That's just not how life work, you know.
It's easy to have all the answers retroactively, but nothing is that clear when you're in the middle of this situation.

 

[TheSplinter]

Upgrading is a no brainer, but this is not the place to discuss it. I'll just point out that having a BST

What is a BST? A sales thread?

You can't always have a list of things you can't guarantee while you try to recruit clients. That's just not how life work, you know.
It's easy to have all the answers retroactively, but nothing is that clear when you're in the middle of this situation.

I understand. But if you know retroactively what is completely out of your control and can fail, you can warn your potential clients. They might still come after me, but unless the mod is comepletely unfair and biased, i can simply point to the thread and say "See? i told you. You accepted it". So i don't see how he can demand any sort of refund.

If the product is a bit more complicated, then i won't sell it at all. I have a great bot that has done me wonders for personal use. Really cool, really creative and does what people here pay a lot of money for others to do for them for only 30 bucks or so, one time fee. I had that plan. However, i think having a bunch of people using it might affect its performance, so i decided not to sell it, for now. Cause i can't control it. I know it's amazing when i use it, but if 100 people are using it i have no idea.

Unless you have a shitload of money, you can't risk people trying to get their money back. You gotta be as honest and as clear and as sure of your product as possible. The banned dude clearly didn't think his whole business through.

Don't think i'm being overly judgemental. It's perfectly human to screw up. That doesn't make him a bad guy. What triggered me was him trying to escape from the punishment. Trying to argue he didn't do anything wrong. If you did something wrong, just be honest. Maybe they could have forgiven his mistake and just wait for him to be able to pay. Who knows?

 

[roydan]

What is a BST? A sales thread?

Yes.

I understand. But if you know retroactively what is completely out of your control and can fail, you can warn your potential clients. They might still come after me, but unless the mod is comepletely unfair and biased, i can simply point to the thread and say "See? i told you. You accepted it". So i don't see how he can demand any sort of refund.

That's not true. Sometimes, even though you wrote everything in your BST you might need to refund a client, at least partially. Sometimes is because you wrote some disclaimers in bad faith, and sometimes it's because the client misunderstood it. Nothing is that simple.

 

[TheSplinter]

Sometimes is because you wrote some disclaimers in bad faith, and sometimes it's because the client misunderstood it. Nothing is that simple.

A written contract between two people should be that simple, as long as all the information is provided. Otherwise, what's the point of an agreement? That will only not be enough if someone intervenes in bad faith to side with the buyer. If i very clearly tell you "I don't know if i can guarantee 99% uptime forever" and you still buy it, but then try to ask for a refund, you're the one acting in bad faith by trying to manipulate the agreement. And if it's clear, i'm not sure how any non-corrupt entity would side with you. That pretty much says agreements mean nothing and anything can be undone...only in favour of the buyer, right?

Anyway, you're right. I actually saw a shitlist thread where the seller didn't do anything wrong but was still asked to refund. He refunded the buyer because the buyer didn't understand the sales thread. So anyone can buy something and then play stupid and hurt someone financially. I'm not a big fan of lack of personal responsibility. Maybe that's why i haven't started a BTS yet. First i gotta try to understand what type of BS they might pull on sellers around here. I really can't afford, two months from now, when i no longer even have your money anymore, to find out that you decided that you didn't read and accept what we both know you read and accepted, and that a mod, for some bizarre reason sided with you.

If it happens here it's quite sad, because that is the type of unfair treatment that leads sellers to run from Paypal. One would hope we could have a place that treated sellers fairly and agreements were actually honored. Why do i even need to write anything in my sales thread, if the agreement can be replaced by the mood of the buyer and the mod?

 

[roydan]

A written contract between two people should be that simple, as long as long as all the information is provided.

It should be, but it never is. Even in the example you brought:

I don't know if i can guarantee 99% uptime forever

No one can guarantee 99% uptime without stating the timeframe. Have you ever seen such clarification? If the server was down for 1 hour during October 1st, it doesn't matter that the following 99 hours it was up. A client can come and say that it was down for 4% on October 1st, and he will technically be right.

You can disclaim everything you want in your contract, what matters is "the spirit" of what you wrote and not every single and tiny aspect of it.

Most things can be interperted in multiple ways, and that's why nothing is simple.

 

[TheSplinter]

No one can guarantee 99% uptime without stating the timeframe. Have you ever seen such clarification? If the server was down for 1 hour during October 1st, it doesn't matter that the following 99 hours it was up. A client can come and say that it was down for 4% on October 1st, and he will technically be right.

It's just an example. Maybe a bad one. let me give you another: I sell you a piece of software for a very good price. Just a one time fee. Lets say 4 months from now the software no longer works. You will ask for a refund, right? What if i tell you: The fee guarantees 1 month of use, but after that there's no guarantee the software will still be functional. It may or may not be. Would you also ask for a refund?

You can disclaim everything you want in your contract, what matters is "the spirit" of what you wrote and not every single and tiny aspect of it.

That seems like a pretty nice excuse to scam someone. Because spirit isn't something tangible. You cannot define it objectively. You can only have an opinion about it. So your opinion can undermine a contract. You and a mod with a similar mindframe can just decide i had bad spirit. What kind of message does that send to everyone else? The messahe it sends is: "You're not safe here, even if you do everything right, because some mod and some buyers opinion is more important than an agreement in BIG LETTERS"

Now, the question is: If "the spirit" was so bad, why was the thread allowed and the product bought? You were ok with using it for as long as you could or wanted, and the mods were ok with what i wrote in my post. But all of the sudden...not anymore?

You do realize that can completely bankrupt someone, right? Your perception of "spirit" can destroy someone's life. And if you claim that i acted in "bad spirit" and ask for a refund, other people might take a look at it and think..."Hummm...i can just get my money back?" and do the same and gangbang the seller into bankruptcy

Most things can be interperted in multiple ways, and that's why nothing is simple.

That defeats the purpose of an agreement and makes business unfeasible.

 

[roydan]

@TheSplinter I think we hijacked this thread enough.
We repeat ourselves for the past few comments and not going forward.

I think that you see things too much of either black or white, and I can relate to that because I used to do that, too. You probably think that I see too many shades of grey, which is fine, too.

 

[Primerax]

He claims he was waiting for an official decision before refunding and is saying he will refund in support.

Hopefully he does the right thing and refunds.

How will the refund work? Do I need to submit something?

 

[GringoMonkey]

I know that. But upgrading is pretty much sold as paradise. You just gotta check any thread about it to see that type of rethoric completely dominates any topic about upgrading. You're gonna make a lot of money, etc, etc, etc.

If you want to make a guaranteed profit on jr vip, sign up, rent your signature out and be an active member. You will always make more in 12 months than the cost of jr vip.

If you want to take an additional $30 risk and make more, open a bst.

 

[BassTrackerBoats]

How will the refund work? Do I need to submit something?

No idea how the refund would work.

He stated in the support desk he would refund but we have no control over that although I hope he does.

 

[Primerax]

No idea how the refund would work.

He stated in the support desk he would refund but we have no control over that although I hope he does.

So I should give him my refund details? Is he in contact with support via email? Maybe you can CC me in there so I can share my details with him and support at the same time and make it official.

 

[BassTrackerBoats]

So I should give him my refund details? Is he in contact with support via email? Maybe you can CC me in there so I can share my details with him and support at the same time and make it official.

However you and them communicated off the forum is how you will need to communicate with them.

As far as the forum goes this is a done and dusted event as they are banned.

 

[SocialEyez]

This was the saddest and not popcorn worthy SL thread i have ever read.

It's sad because it seems like things could easily go the right way, one way or another.

Seeing such an old timer getting banned over this really sucks, especially since he sounds like an honest guy all in all.

 

[GringoMonkey]

So I should give him my refund details? Is he in contact with support via email? Maybe you can CC me in there so I can share my details with him and support at the same time and make it official.

I think you need to be realistic, you are probably not going to get a refund.

There is no advantage to @TheGreyMatter to provide one now he has lost this shitlist thread and been banned.

It is the reason mods dont ban quickly. They are trying to use the leverage of a ban to get you a refund. When they realise it is not going to work, then they ban.

 

[BassTrackerBoats]

There is no advantage to @TheGreyMatter to provide one now he has lost this shitlist thread and been banned.

There is the possibility that they do the right thing, contact support and get reinstated.

 

[GringoMonkey]

There is the possibility that they do the right thing, contact support and get reinstated.

Possible yes, likely though, no