A Hypothetical Transaction

[benvoliotw]

Say that Joe sells an item on ebay, get funds sent to his Paypal and put on hold, like usual, to wait for item delivery/buyer response.

Joe takes the item to the P.O, gets delivery confirmation and insurance for it, and mails it off. He then realizes that he put the wrong name and street address, but still the right city, state, and - most importantly- zip code.

Joe shrugs and figures it'll just come back and he'll send it back again correctly, so he gets back to his computer and puts the tracking number in for Paypal/the buyer to monitor.

The tracking system only says the city, state, and zipcode of the shipment's locations, so when the item gets there, Paypal and the buyer see it as delivered. The buyer spends a few days trying to figure out just where the heck the item is, Paypal releases the funds to the seller, and then the buyer files an "item not received", but is denied, because- clearly- the item arrived at its destination, according to tracking.

Call it an urban legend- I chuckled at it, and now I'm merely posing it to you all to see what validity/fallibility you find in it.

 

[benvoliotw]

It's been three months, so I guess no one's interested in the hypothetical...
Don't think it'd work? I'm sure after a few "Item Not Received"s in a row, it'd raise a flag, but...still SOMEWHAT interesting, no?

 

[Thompson18]

lol does that really work? damn thats skeezy

 

[onizuka]

I suppose you could pull it off a few times but paypal keeps track of those things so even if you didn't get a chargeback, I'd imagine they'd do something if you had a pattern of several of these a year.

Then you'd have to have a reliable way of getting whatever the item was back. If you had a connection in that city it'd be easy but I wouldn't just rely on a total stranger returning something they didn't order.

 

[elscapo]

It would be a very stupid idea, because if you sold the items to New York, San Francisco, etc in XXXX zip code, how could you possibly retrieve the items from all those places, not to mention the customer could always do a chargeback and get their money back automatically. Not suggesting you would try this, but just to say it would never work.

 

[benvoliotw]

That's why it's hypothetical, Deancho, but thanks for the brilliant insight.
Again- this is HYPOTHETICAL and I DID NOT COME UP WITH IT, nor have I done it. I merely thought it was interesting and brought it to you all.

The seller wouldn't get a chargeback because the item's been delivered. It's been proven to have been delivered. So the buyer's claim that the item didn't arrive would be completely dismissed.

elscapo- I don't get what you're saying at all. The seller would not be trying to get the item back. In fact, he/she wouldn't need the item back at all, because he/she received the money. So your "lost in the big city" problem actually works to their advantage.

onizuka- yeah, it could only be done once or twice per account, I'm sure, but if the money stays, and it will- there's no need to retrieve the item(s).

I don't think you guys are considering the fact that once the tracking says the item's been delivered and it hasn't arrived, the buyer isn't automatically going to be thinking that the seller messed things up. They're going to be thinking that the Postal Service messed up, so they'll be spending a couple of days chasing tails in the P.O., where the P.O won't be allowed to divulge further info. Imagine if the seller were to've put insurance on the item...

Again, just a hypothetical. Kinda like imagining up interesting ways to die (we all do it), or how you'd pull off a big, cinematic heist if you had the balls. It's just fun/interesting to think about. I wouldn't do it and I don't promote it, whatsoever, because- as deancho so wisely enlightened us-

This is illegal and you can get busted for it..

You're a lifesaver.

 

[elscapo]

That is pointless, if the seller (scammer) is not going to get the product back then why not just send it to the correct address.

In your scenario lets say the customer is John Smith from 123 Fake st Miami

Say John Smith bought a phone for 400$

Then you ship the item insted to 123 Not Real St and it gets delivered to some random ass person.

Say the phone cost you 300$, then yes, you made 100$ but all you succeeded in doing is shipping the product to the wrong address. I dont understand how this is at all useful.

Also, its easy to win a credit card chargeback for item not received if the signature confirmation doesnt show delivery to the exact address or even name. They would definitely lose the paypal complaint, but they might lose the credit card chargeback if they fought hard enough. Its possible to request signature copies from many delivery companies. If it showed Mary Brown instead of John Smith, that could be a problem.

In the end though, you are right, if you did this by accident and the buyer didnt want to bother to fight it then you would definitely keep the money and win the paypal dispute but if you did this repeately then eventually just because a paypal dispute was opened paypal would limit your account.

 

[jamiet757]

I think the point is that you can use old delivery confirmation numbers to pretend an item was delivered where the new buyer is from. It would depend on the date though, hard to say something was delivered 5 days before the person even bought it.

 

[amonster]

not worth messing with postal fraud

 

[listenloud]

It is possible to check the exact address for usps and ups orders if you know how to do it. For buyer protection it is generally hidden, but paypal can see it.

 

[benvoliotw]

It is possible to check the exact address for usps and ups orders if you know how to do it. For buyer protection it is generally hidden, but paypal can see it.

How is it that Paypal can use the same tracking number for which one can only ever see (and USPS can only ever show) city, state, and zip and have access to the whole information? Sounds pretty spook-tastic to me. I also highly doubt they can, or often do, IF they actually can. But hey- all the better, since both parties win and Paypal loses.

I think the point is that you can use old delivery confirmation numbers to pretend an item was delivered where the new buyer is from.

That actually wasn't the idea behind in this hypothesis, though I'm sure that's been thought of, followed by immediate dismissal (because it would never work).

That is pointless, if the seller (scammer) is not going to get the product back then why not just send it to the correct address.

You're completely right about it not making sense if the seller ships the purchased item and doesn't get it back in the end- I agree 100%. However, I fully maintain that, if one played it right, not getting the item that was shipped back would be no loss. Notice my wording.

 

[onizuka]

Sounds like it is either being shipped to a friend in the same city or it is not exactly the item that was bought being either fake/broken/whatever. That might not be the case at all but that is the only way I can see it benefiting the seller.

Keep in mind though that for items over $200 you need a tracking number and some type of signature confirmation. The tracking is easy but they'd have a much better shot fighting the claim if the buyer can say that isn't their signature on the form.

As was said above, mail fraud is way risky biz that I would avoid.

 

[benvoliotw]

As was said above, it's hypothetical.

As if it weren't completely obvious that it would be fraudulent and risky, superfluous "this is illegal","mail fraud is risky", etc. statements go without saying, and are thus - no offense- merely wasting space.

I'm pretty sure the people who sought to understand do by now, and those who didn't have gone through the motions of stating the obvious. Grazie.

Well, fellas- it's been fun. I've said more than needs to be said on this matter, so I'll take my leave of you. To clarify- one last time: I never took part nor plan to take part in whatever has been discussed in this thread. I propounded the idea as a mere matter of interest upon which to both self-speculate and gather outside speculations. Feel free to compare this meager thread to a Death Metal singer's spreading the good word of carnage, torture, rape, and utter chaos without ever dreaming of actually committing such acts, and feel 500x better about the matter.

I wish you all well,
benvoliotw

 

[c0nan]

You'll get yourself a really pretty pair of steel bangles..
Along with a nice 3x3 home, with a view

C