Reduce Scam on BHW - Shitlist + BST Improvement

[BbHhWwVM]

Let's understand together of what is happening first.

Method part 1:
The seller is starting the sales thread for the very first time.
He provides his services, and everything is just great!
After a certain time, his method/service is off/not working anymore.
The seller has obligations to a few more customers, + taking new orders.
Decision: scam and run. He simply don't want to be a good guy, no refunds.

Method part 2:
Experience! Get a remote device/IP and start selling something.
100 posts are done in 15 days under the radar, you can't track that.
After being set with BST, the goal is to look attractive and act quick.
Deliver a few free reviews, get orders running, deliver some... (spend a month overall)
Play hide & seek next 2-3 months with customers, later with Shitlist thread.

By using this, the seller can scam (and they do) up to 20-50 individuals.
Depending of service purpose, this amount can be huge.
Sometime even a single person can bring you more than 50, so it is worth to be a BHW scammer.

Why is this happening?
Well, human factor. Emotions and stupidity.
Many users will choose to wait for the seller to deliver.
Many users will be pulled out of BHW space to chat with.
Where is 1 problem with order, there is 10 at least actually.
(mods can't and shouldn't burn their minds to cover this)

Members in general don't care too much for their $$ here. They do, but not the entire time.
Imagine having a little kid and you do care, but only sometimes.
Well, this is how most of members operate here.
They care of their money, but only when something bad start happening with their money.

When we hook this to the scenario above:
Only 1 member will report, more than 5 will come later, and more than 10+ won't see the thread,
or will just give the seller more time, because they are not in a hurry.
(we have seen this live, under almost every Shitlist, buyers waves mixed with random dates)

How can BHW stop this?

1. Shitlist cannot be invisible to the public.
Anybody who is creating Shitlist should be able to publish it live immediately.

2. Shitlist without a proper proofs and images will result as closed for the public,
if there is no any after a call to action from a mod.
Consequences for the Shitlist creator could be temp ban, warnings, etc if he doesn't provide.

3. If TAT is not over (since the order) Shitlist is still public. BUT, if TAT is over, then:
BST is DEAD, no thread, no reviews, no nothing,
but an image where BST used to be (URL) saying that there is ongoing Shitlist with the seller and a link to it.

4. If the seller has more BST, everything is going down (temporary) until the Shitlist is resolved.

5. The seller PM is getting disabled immediately after the Shitlist thread is created.
The ideal scenario is to let him talk under the Shitlist thread only.
(can be done manually, by mod)

Don't get me wrong BHW, but the sellers here have a lot of space for their tails.
This edit won't entirely kill them, but it surely will reduce the amount of scammed members.

This will also improve the entire market on BHW,
because sellers will take care to perform better, and stay in good shape.

Overall, you don't have to worry if you are doing your part of the job.
Everybody is welcome to provide their feedback and suggestions.

 

[AngelSeo]

I posted a bad review (completely justified) for seller here. He gave me refund, thanked me, and proceed to post fake reviews from puppet accounts to move my post out of the sight - continue to sell his shit service (his BST have over 120 pages). So yeah, not only 2 methods to scam buyers.

 

[Deleted member 813988]

Great method You just past 150 messages > BST is coming soon...?

Jokes aside > it's not clever to assume that every BST attracts tons of sales right away, that is not so.
A lot of threads staying unnoticed and a lot of BST threads offer free reviews at the beginnings, this means the service is actually delivered.

Some services cannot be delivered forever and only valid during a certain time - that's true, but this is the same with any other business you can imagine.

 

[BbHhWwVM]

Yeah, I used to be a Shitlist fan, before I decided to open an account here.
So I mainly focused on this part, where most likely the majority of cash ends up.

But great to see more of the methods, that one is fun indeed. Thank you.

 

[BbHhWwVM]

Update:

Everyone who left the comment under BST could be informed via PM about Shitlist.
(perhaps it's too much, but just saying)

Great method You just past 150 messages > BST is coming soon...?

Jokes aside > it's not clever to assume that every BST attracts tons of sales right away, that is not so.
A lot of threads staying unnoticed and a lot of BST threads offer free reviews at the beginnings, this means the service is actually delivered.

Some services cannot be delivered forever and only valid during a certain time - that's true, but this is the same with any other business you can imagine.

It is not clever to analyze BST at all. This status of protection should be permanent.
You can't guess what can happen, even the best looking BST here can become a scam.
I was just describing how this scam method could be done, one of the ways.
The majority of the services will deliver, and scam you later, they must be able to deliver to go live at first.
This has nothing to do with most of the BST services. They operate great, it is just for the scammers.
To prevent it, you just need a defence system and a valid proof from the buyer.

 

[ScribScribScrib]

I posted a bad review (completely justified) for seller here. He gave me refund, thanked me, and proceed to post fake reviews from puppet accounts to move my post out of the sight - continue to sell his shit service (his BST have over 120 pages). So yeah, not only 2 methods to scam buyers.

report it to the higher-ups with proof

 

[INCC]

Why such situation exist is because BHW isnt considered as a "marketplace first" community.

Besides the BST thread upload cost + Jr.VIP tag - there aren't any fees that you pay to this community / staff so there probably aren't the manpower nor willingness to deal all cases instantly, obviously things would be different if there was a % fee per each sale that you make in here.. And if you read the forum, then they are planning such system.

Depends what you sell, but if the fees are reasonable and BHW could even act as a third party escrow service - I would be more than happy with this option.

I've been on both sides of the issue, got scammed by buyers and really respected sellers.. There is no ground for due diligence all the time, it's a coin flip.

 

[Deleted member 657006]

this forum will not tolerate any scams for there members, the forum is heavily based on community based , we all together we report scammers to protect eachover.

the mods and admins do there own protection and go deep on scammers and investigate on there own .

scams and scammers are looked at and the admin and mods protect us as much as possible.

(( if you no of a user scamming others please report to a mod or admin .))

the shitlist is correct way to go if you no of a scam going on from any registred seller .

the back end what go on is not for public to no about ,the team , mods , admins , owner will not toletate scams .

 

[AngelSeo]

report it to the higher-ups with proof

I did. I even digged some of this fake accounts, send screenshots etc - some get banned, some get just post deletion. Reported his service as well. Its just sad that people are getting so much orders and just scam their clients.

 

[PHPInjected]

1. Shitlist cannot be invisible to the public.
Anybody who is creating Shitlist should be able to publish it live immediately.

No. This is a HUGE waste of the mods time. Publishing live shitlists immediately will just cause a stir that doesn't need to occur. There's a time frame in which you have to wait for a shitlist and sometimes, once a mod gets involved, a public shitlist doesn't even happen and a refund occurs.

 

[BbHhWwVM]

Why such situation exist is because BHW isnt considered as a "marketplace first" community.

Besides the BST thread upload cost + Jr.VIP tag - there aren't any fees that you pay to this community / staff so there probably aren't the manpower nor willingness to deal all cases instantly, obviously things would be different if there was a % fee per each sale that you make in here.. And if you read the forum, then they are planning such system.

Depends what you sell, but if the fees are reasonable and BHW could even act as a third party escrow service - I would be more than happy with this option.

I've been on both sides of the issue, got scammed by buyers and really respected sellers.. There is no ground for due diligence all the time, it's a coin flip.

Well written. I was completely aware of this statement. Also, I was thinking of how to provide a fee from the marketplace back to BHW, and make it reasonable.

This is obviously a good option 1:
"Depends what you sell, but if the fees are reasonable and BHW could even act as a third party escrow service "

Option 2:
This what I wrote, with a custom annual fee for the buyers only, as protection system is taking care of them on the max level. The price would be like $40-50, so any buyer can cover it, and get some badge maybe, marketplace buyer status.

So, these two options could come as two separated marketplaces of BHW.
And there would be no more a marketplace we used to know.
It is fair enough for both sides, and free marketplace on BHW is not a way to go, it has to be stopped.

This looks as the best way to go for me.

No. This is a HUGE waste of the mods time. Publishing live shitlists immediately will just cause a stir that doesn't need to occur. There's a time frame in which you have to wait for a shitlist and sometimes, once a mod gets involved, a public shitlist doesn't even happen and a refund occurs.

Thanks for your opinion, but I can't agree with it. I don't know about Shitlist details and time frame before publishing, but transparency is what we need. Money for the BHW as well (you can find in my last reply #11), from everyone involved in the marketplace. We need to see refunds, quality, reasons so we could have a better picture of some service, not to watch at friendly reviews only.

You can't just like that open a shitlist, you will have to provide a real proof, in image or video format and you are most likely temp banned if you are lying. There won't be much of these threads buddy, or at least not for a long time.

Also, BHW can hire more mods to deal with such stuff, they will get some benefit in return.
No need to elaborate on this, so these are my reasons why I can't agree with you.

 

[PHPInjected]

You can't just like that open a shitlist, you will have to provide a real proof, in image or video format and you are most likely temp banned if you are lying. There won't be much of these threads buddy, or at least not for a long time.

Also, BHW can hire more mods to deal with such stuff, they will get some benefit in return.
No need to elaborate on this, so these are my reasons why I can't agree with you.

That's why they don't go live right there, you answered that one on your own. You need to prove it. It also needs to be APPARENT that a buyer OR seller is refusing to refund/attempting to scam another member. To be able to just post what someone considers proof straight away and disparage someone else's business is not only wrong, but it's not what BHW is about.

A shitlist scares off new customers and repeat buyers. The way it is set up right now is perfectly fine. I believe there is a shitlist moderator, one who specifically handles those threads. If not, I'd consider applying for the job.

On our original topic though, making them go live immediately would cause too much havoc and mudslinging. Just my two cents.

 

[Stavro]

1. Shitlist cannot be invisible to the public.
Anybody who is creating Shitlist should be able to publish it live immediately.

And what would stop people from using disposable accounts to SL their competitors? Even if the thread only remains visible for less than a minute, BHW still carries enough authority that the thread title and blurb will rank on Google for the seller's name.

If you compare the time between the thread post time and the approval, most SL threads are approved the same day, or as soon as the 48 hour notification period is complete. It's not like threads are being hidden for weeks or months during a long investigation, the time it's hidden is simply an extra incentive for the seller to make things right before the matter goes public (and for many, even an unjustified refund is probably worth keeping their name off the SL forum). But with an instant publication, it means the warning period has no value, and sellers have no reason to provide refunds for minor issues.

 

[Sephrata]

@BbHhWwVM

I can say with some degree of certainty that the majority of SLs involve users being scammed by other non-paid up users. There's little the staff can do here to prevent this as it takes two to break the rules.

SLs involving users with BSTs aren't too common for the following reasons:

1. BSTs are vetted, prior to going live;
2. BSTs are monitored and work goes on behind the scenes to resolve issues without the need for a SL;
3. The staff are proactively searching and checking reports of previously banned users, groups of users selling the same service on here etc.

Instant SLs would be nothing more than both a defamation playground and a urination competition.

 

[BbHhWwVM]

That's why they don't go live right there, you answered that one on your own. You need to prove it. It also needs to be APPARENT that a buyer OR seller is refusing to refund/attempting to scam another member. To be able to just post what someone considers proof straight away and disparage someone else's business is not only wrong, but it's not what BHW is about.

A shitlist scares off new customers and repeat buyers. The way it is set up right now is perfectly fine. I believe there is a shitlist moderator, one who specifically handles those threads. If not, I'd consider applying for the job.

On our original topic though, making them go live immediately would cause too much havoc and mudslinging. Just my two cents.

The buyer will prove within the OP. Why you target the buyer so much? Let's assume he is right.
Especially if BHW accepts this and add annual fee for the buyers, things can twist so good.
The rest of your 1st paragraph makes no sense for me, sorry my lack of English.

Why protecting sellers so much? They just have to do what they are promising and one or few Shitlist that has been removed/resolved (later) won't affect their job in case someone is marking them.
Accounts of buyers also have to be paid, so there will not be any negative effect.

Maybe it could be moderated, but under 24hours. You just have to see proof and press publish.
(even if proof is fake, it will be determined and resolved, deleted very quickly + sellers will be more accurate to Shitlist, + they will receive an email from BHW about it, from any PM etc)

And what would stop people from using disposable accounts to SL their competitors? Even if the thread only remains visible for less than a minute, BHW still carries enough authority that the thread title and blurb will rank on Google for the seller's name.

If you compare the time between the thread post time and the approval, most SL threads are approved the same day, or as soon as the 48 hour notification period is complete. It's not like threads are being hidden for weeks or months during a long investigation, the time it's hidden is simply an extra incentive for the seller to make things right before the matter goes public (and for many, even an unjustified refund is probably worth keeping their name off the SL forum). But with an instant publication, it means the warning period has no value, and sellers have no reason to provide refunds for minor issues.

Buyers will have to pay for their accounts, like $50 annually.
What rank on Google? You can delete Shitlist or make it google visible only if the seller is a scammer.

 

[Stavro]

What rank on Google? You can delete Shitlist or make it google visible only if the seller is a scammer.

Anything visible to the public is visible to Google, the only way to keep it off Google is to keep it invisible until everything is verified.

There are several members who still have old SL pages showing up at rank two or three in Google despite the threads being deleted long ago. Deleting the thread from BHW doesn't delete it from Google or the various archive sites.

Buyers will have to pay for their accounts, like $50 annually.

That sounds very similar to the 20-30% per-sale fee proposed with Marketplace 2.0.
https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/bhw-marketplace-2-0-thoughts.1106901/

 

[BbHhWwVM]

OK Big UPDATE

Read the OP +

1. All Buyers need to get Marketplace buyer status (which could cost $50 annually)
2. All Jr Vips stay on the old/new (soon) prices.
3. PM System blocks for every member who is not any kind of paid member. (this will reduce hell of a job)
4. SL public from the start, since the seller has no reason to worry if SL is mistake or some refund.
(don't think that anybody will get afraid, come on! Google index of SL can be off/on so easily, don't use that)
5. There will be no any negative effect, because of $$. You risk to be banned as a buyer with fake SL.
6. Marketplace is becoming fully paid. Everyone involved will be a paid members.
Marketplace could be separated (somehow) into two sections/options:

1. What BHW is suggesting, 3rd party for a fee and their custom assistance with heavy trades.
2. What my OP is with this edit.

Maybe I miss something more, but thanks for all the reviews, it only helps me close the holes.

Anything visible to the public is visible to Google, the only way to keep it off Google is to keep it invisible until everything is verified.

There are several members who still have old SL pages showing up at rank two or three in Google despite the threads being deleted long ago. Deleting the thread from BHW doesn't delete it from Google or the various archive sites.


That sounds very similar to the 20-30% per-sale fee proposed with Marketplace 2.0.
https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/bhw-marketplace-2-0-thoughts.1106901/

So, you are saying that BHW can't block G to index their pages? That if we see the pages, Google must too?
I am not sure that this is the case, but if so, again, why would you care if you are a legit seller man.
You will gain lots of quality reviews etc, and then some SL will block your business? That ain't gonna happen!

About that with 2.0, it is not the same at all, except the pricing.
I am saying that BHW should force the whole marketplace to be paid, and everything else you can see on this thread.

 

[blogzandstuff]

OK Big UPDATE

Read the OP +

1. All Buyers need to get Marketplace buyer status (which could cost $50 annually)
2. All Jr Vips stay on the old/new (soon) prices.
3. PM System blocks for every member who is not any kind of paid member. (this will reduce hell of a job)
4. SL public from the start, since the seller has no reason to worry if SL is mistake or some refund.
(don't think that anybody will get afraid, come on! Google index of SL can be off/on so easily, don't use that)
5. There will be no any negative effect, because of $$. You risk to be banned as a buyer with fake SL.
6. Marketplace is becoming fully paid. Everyone involved will be a paid members.
Marketplace could be separated (somehow) into two sections/options:

1. What BHW is suggesting, 3rd party for a fee and their custom assistance with heavy trades.
2. What my OP is with this edit.

Maybe I miss something more, but thanks for all the reviews, it only helps me close the holes.

Bit confused about this " All Buyers need to get Marketplace buyer status (which could cost $50 annually) "
Wouldn't that kill the marketplace? Are you suggesting people buy a right to buy a service? I would stop buying from here and go elsewhere. There are the same sellers on here as DP, customers would just go there

 

[BbHhWwVM]

Bit confused about this " All Buyers need to get Marketplace buyer status (which could cost $50 annually) "
Wouldn't that kill the marketplace? Are you suggesting people buy a right to buy a service? I would stop buying from here and go elsewhere. There are the same sellers on here as DP, customers would just go there

BHW would become one of the most secured markets.
Being able to PM on BHW would require at least the Buyer status.
And many free members who are customers only would buy it as the risk of being scammed is minimized compared with any other location.

If you don't want to give $50 for your security and PM status on BHW, what would you spend on buying?
If you are just frustrated with paying $50 to be max secured, then ok, it's fine.
We could put this on the vote board later

 

[blogzandstuff]

BHW would become one of the most secured markets.
Being able to PM on BHW would require at least the Buyer status.
And many free members who are customers only would buy it as the risk of being scammed is minimized compared with any other location.

If you don't want to give $50 for your security and PM status on BHW, what would you spend on buying?
If you are just frustrated with paying $50 to be max secured, then ok, it's fine.
We could put this on the vote board later

It's already pretty well run, common sense is better. I've done a lot of transactions on here. Just read the thread before you buy, don't buy from yellow members or via pm, it's hardly rocket science.