Bitcoin - Be Careful Out There

[Mingus]

Too many warnings from top finance analysts. There is no way that government regulation is not going to step in and step in hard as this currency method is capable of financing all types of illegal and disruptive activities. It kind of reminds me of back in the day of building directory sites via scraping tools, ranking them fast and easy in Google and making $10K+ a month in Adsense (remember the days of being part of Google's FedEx club). Everyone said it would last forever. Nope, too big a threat to Google's brand mission. BitCoin is the same disruptive threat to things much bigger than Google. If you are in this game, make your money and run.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/28/north-korean-hackers-attempts-to-steal-bitcoin-are-a-huge-wake-up-call-commentary.html

 

[MikeyMikey13]

Really dude? Did you put your tin foil hat on when you posted this?

I would actually love to see the world wide government try to stop bitcoin.

 

[THUNDERELVI]

That's just more FUD so the price drops and people like you start dumping at a loss because of panic & fear. North Korean hackers have been hacking South Korean exchanges for months now, that's not flash news.

 

[Centimetro]

Really dude? Did you put your tin foil hat on when you posted this?

I would actually love to see the world wide government try to stop bitcoin.

Most people are only interested in Bitcoin because of the money it can make them (speculation & investment).

So all the government(s) would have to do is stop people from speculating/investing in it, and it loses its value

I don't think he's wrong. People should be careful; but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of money to be made and you should avoid it or anything.

 

[MikeyMikey13]

Most people are only interested in Bitcoin because of the money it can make them (speculation & investment).

So all the government(s) would have to do is stop people from speculating/investing in it, and it loses its value

I don't think he's wrong. People should be careful; but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of money to be made and you should avoid it or anything.

Okay great, now explain to me how a single government could stop people buying a bitcoin?

You know, like they've stopped the sale of drugs online? prescription drugs from india? Or child porn? All that would happen is: a country where it is still legal would sell you coins OR darknet marketplaces to buy them.

I find it highly unlike, and very very hard to police. that's why they haven't bothered doing it.

 

[TheSerpSlayer]

Bitcoin has no actual value except hype. It's obvious that it's actually backed by and pumped up by certain governments and other groups on purpose. So OP has to explain why the people who created it while knowing full well what sort of disruption it could cause would suddenly want to destroy it. If it's doing exactly what it was planned to be doing then it will continue to exist for whatever reason it's backers chose.

Also, wasn't bitcoin used to trace people on silk road and go after them? It's not anonymous at all and everyone who uses it can be tracked obviously. Now why would the people with access to that tracking want to shut it down, maybe that was part of the reason it was created? Who knows.

 

[MikeyMikey13]

Bitcoin has no actual value except hype. It's obvious that it's actually backed by and pumped up by certain governments and other groups on purpose. So OP has to explain why the people who created it while knowing full well what sort of disruption it could cause would suddenly want to destroy it. If it's doing exactly what it was planned to be doing then it will continue to exist for whatever reason it's backers chose.

Also, wasn't bitcoin used to trace people on silk road and go after them? It's not anonymous at all and everyone who uses it can be tracked obviously. Now why would the people with access to that tracking want to shut it down, maybe that was part of the reason it was created? Who knows.

Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies. So yeah, BTC has no value, you are right. Just like the dollar, GBP, Euro. Unless we are trading in gold coins of course it doesn't have any real value.

Not at all. You can't track anyone through btc. However, you can follow the money like you can with any currency.

And no, btc wasn't the reason the person on CR was caught. It was the FBI hacking the server (they claim they didn't, but they clearly did) AND officers acting undercover on the site as moderators/vendors

 

[TheSerpSlayer]

Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies. So yeah, BTC has no value, you are right. Just like the dollar, GBP, Euro. Unless we are trading in gold coins of course it doesn't have any real value.

Modern fiat currencies are still pegged to a lot of consumer and producer items though and that adds stability to them. Also, everyone in an economy is required to accept fiat currency of that domain as legal tender. That gives the fiat currency a lot of value and the fact that prices change very, very slowly gives the currency stability. BTC has none of that and that is why it keeps jumping up and down like a yoyo.

Not at all. You can't track anyone through btc. However, you can follow the money like you can with any currency.

Yes you can, each wallet needs to connect to the hive via an IP address over then internet and all of that metadata is logged and monitored globally by fiveyes and other agencies with access to their own internet traffic like the chinese and russians. There's probably historical records of every single btc transaction that ever took place in archives.

But besides all these intel agencies even a pleb with a web browser can reconstruct much of the transactions of a wallet's addresses on blockchains. So this actually makes btc less private than something like paypal or CCs. So no, you cannot "follow the money" with any FIAT currency unless you have access to private transactional records. However with btc you just need a web browser.

And no, btc wasn't the reason the person on CR was caught. It was the FBI hacking the server (they claim they didn't, but they clearly did) AND officers acting undercover on the site as moderators/vendors

Who is CR? I was talking about silk road but it could be anything. Since they can track every single crypto transaction ever and also link it to IP addresses and proxy chains they have the ability to reconstruct everything and know who is buying and selling what. So this anonymity is just an illusion, the buyers and sellers are only anonymous to an extent from the general public and not from anyone monitoring the worldwide network.

 

[MikeyMikey13]

Modern fiat currencies are still pegged to a lot of consumer and producer items though and that adds stability to them. Also, everyone in an economy is required to accept fiat currency of that domain as legal tender. That gives the fiat currency a lot of value and the fact that prices change very, very slowly gives the currency stability. BTC has none of that and that is why it keeps jumping up and down like a yoyo.

Right, lets go back to your original point: bitcoin has no real value. Which it doesn't. And nor does legal tender in any other country.

If you think currency is stable only by consumers and producers you are crazy. In the U.K we have the BoE that sets interest rates, that is pretty much the only reason the GBP is stable.

I admit, BTC doesn't have stability, which is a requirement of currency, but that doesn't mean it has "no value".

Yes you can, each wallet needs to connect to the hive via an IP address over then internet and all of that metadata is logged and monitored globally by fiveyes and other agencies with access to their own internet traffic like the chinese and russians. There's probably historical records of every single btc transaction that ever took place in archives.

But besides all these intel agencies even a pleb with a web browser can reconstruct much of the transactions of a wallet's addresses on blockchains. So this actually makes btc less private than something like paypal or CCs. So no, you cannot "follow the money" with any FIAT currency unless you have access to private transactional records. However with btc you just need a web browser.

How easy do you think it is for criminals to spoof IP address and metadata? I mean really, you think they are that stupid to access this stuff without being anonymous?

Also, when you say "all data", that is wrong. There is plenty of ewallet services that don't save data of the users. And you can't get IP addresses either if an ewallet is used.

And when I said, you can "follow the money", what you are referring to with blockchain is exactly what I meant. Meaning, any LE or investigators could check the blockchain and your bank accounts to see if the meet at any point. So yes, following the money is an option.

Who is CR? I was talking about silk road but it could be anything. Since they can track every single crypto transaction ever and also link it to IP addresses and proxy chains they have the ability to reconstruct everything and know who is buying and selling what. So this anonymity is just an illusion, the buyers and sellers are only anonymous to an extent from the general public and not from anyone monitoring the worldwide network.

I mean SR, as in Silk Road.

And no. they didn't use bitcoin. How many times do you want me to tell you? the retard that made the site used his public email to advertise the site with his full name in it. LE also copied the server. They also were moderators on the site.

THEY DID NOT reconstruct every transaction on the site.


And one last point for you brain box, if it is so so easy to track these people, then why is there endless darknet marketplaces selling guns, drugs and childporn with bitcoins? Surely, you could just track them or reconstruct every possible transaction and figure out their location with their IP address, right sir?

 

[Soucha]

Also, wasn't bitcoin used to trace people on silk road and go after them? It's not anonymous at all and everyone who uses it can be tracked obviously. Now why would the people with access to that tracking want to shut it down, maybe that was part of the reason it was created? Who knows.

Every transaction is transparent to avoid manipulation but it is still entirely anonymous if done correctly.
It has indeed been used to trace illicit vendors but them being able to do so is entirely the vendor's own fault and/or ignorance.

 

[TheSerpSlayer]

Right, lets go back to your original point: bitcoin has no real value. Which it doesn't. And nor does legal tender in any other country.

If you think currency is stable only by consumers and producers you are crazy. In the U.K we have the BoE that sets interest rates, that is pretty much the only reason the GBP is stable.

I admit, BTC doesn't have stability, which is a requirement of currency, but that doesn't mean it has "no value".

It's not the only reason. The GBP is also stable because it's supply is carefully controlled and it's not overprinted or underprinted to cause merchants to swing their prices up and down. The fact that consumer goods and producer goods are priced in GBP has a big effect on stability and predictability. Just look at the forex markets and compare it to the crypto markets. Do you think this is just because of interest rates? The currency is used by producers and consumers so of course this is where the stability comes from. If you know that this week and the next you're going to be able to buy the same amount of meat, milk or potatoes for the same amount of GBP that creates stability. With BTC you don't know how many gmails you can buy next month with the same amount or how many USD or GBP you can convert it back into so that adds even more to the volatility.

How easy do you think it is for criminals to spoof IP address and metadata? I mean really, you think they are that stupid to access this stuff without being anonymous?

Also, when you say "all data", that is wrong. There is plenty of ewallet services that don't save data of the users. And you can't get IP addresses either if an ewallet is used.

And when I said, you can "follow the money", what you are referring to with blockchain is exactly what I meant. Meaning, any LE or investigators could check the blockchain and your bank accounts to see if the meet at any point. So yes, following the money is an option.

I mean SR, as in Silk Road.

You can't really spoof IP addresses without creating tracks that can be reconstructed. In order to do this perfectly a crim would need to know exactly what type of equipment and software is tracking him and folks in general are ignorant about all the passive snooping devices at various nodes all over the world; people just assume they don't exist. And with ewallets I assume you mean an online wallet where the private keys live on someone elses server? If so then the IPs that access that site are also logged so it can all be reconstructed, in fact it could be pulled up in real time if needed I'd imagine.

And no, the blockchain itself is what the general public can follow, however intel agencies would have access to a lot more metadata such as which IPs are associated with which private key and address that the blockchain does not make public but when you have intel agencies sniffing all the nodes they can reconstruct it for their own benefit. I doubt they give that info to any LE, it's probably hard to get hold of even internally depending on whom the data is on and what they're investigating. But my point is, it's neither private nor anonymous.

And one last point for you brain box, if it is so so easy to track these people, then why is there endless darknet marketplaces selling guns, drugs and childporn with bitcoins? Surely, you could just track them or reconstruct every possible transaction and figure out their location with their IP address, right sir?

You certainly could but you'd need a warrant to raid the key components of their operation and all this metadata might be inadmissible in court due to privacy laws and these weapons operations are probably spread out in jurisdictions where the same central authority cannot coordinate the entire investigation and for all you know they do get raided but easily avoid shutdowns due to redundancy. There could be multitudes of reasons. Just knowing about something isn't going to end it right there and then because you have to build cases with testimony and exibits that stand up in court and unwarranted wiretaps usually don't. Why are mafias continuously functioning when everyone knows about them?

The childporn or whatever digital goods are probably kept on servers different than the ones that process payments. Also data is easy to copy so if a server somewhere is raided then a replacement will be up within minutes. And the payment systems are probably on a completely different network with compartmentalized managers and operators.

 

[TheSerpSlayer]

Every transaction is transparent to avoid manipulation but it is still entirely anonymous if done correctly.
It has indeed been used to trace illicit vendors but them being able to do so is entirely the vendor's own fault and/or ignorance.

Well that's my point. There's this meme floating around that btc is anonymous and encrypted and what not and you have all these sensationalized stories about groups like ISIS and the norks using and abusing bitcoin so it gives plebs the impression that it's going to give them some sort of an edge when in fact their own ignorance actually leads them to help construct a honeypot they and others get ensnared in. This could possibly be why the powers that be let bitcoin keep happening, you never know.

 

[MikeyMikey13]

You certainly could but you'd need a warrant to raid the key components of their operation and all this metadata might be inadmissible in court due to privacy laws and these weapons operations are probably spread out in jurisdictions where the same central authority cannot coordinate the entire investigation and for all you know they do get raided but easily avoid shutdowns due to redundancy. There could be multitudes of reasons. Just knowing about something isn't going to end it right there and then because you have to build cases with testimony and exibits that stand up in court and unwarranted wiretaps usually don't. Why are mafias continuously functioning when everyone knows about them?

The childporn or whatever digital goods are probably kept on servers different than the ones that process payments. Also data is easy to copy so if a server somewhere is raided then a replacement will be up within minutes. And the payment systems are probably on a completely different network with compartmentalized managers and operators.

Right now you've took the time to answer your own question.

I'll ask again, how can they track the operators of SR with all these barriers you just identified? How impractical does this seem to you?

You can't really spoof IP addresses without creating tracks that can be reconstructed. In order to do this perfectly a crim would need to know exactly what type of equipment and software is tracking him and folks in general are ignorant about all the passive snooping devices at various nodes all over the world; people just assume they don't exist. And with ewallets I assume you mean an online wallet where the private keys live on someone elses server? If so then the IPs that access that site are also logged so it can all be reconstructed, in fact it could be pulled up in real time if needed I'd imagine.

Right, so you can spoof your IP address and you can access an e-wallet, hosted somewhere else with this spoofed IP?

And let me point out, some offshore online wallets do not keep any logs at all. Stop assuming they do.

And no, the blockchain itself is what the general public can follow, however intel agencies would have access to a lot more metadata such as which IPs are associated with which private key and address that the blockchain does not make public but when you have intel agencies sniffing all the nodes they can reconstruct it for their own benefit. I doubt they give that info to any LE, it's probably hard to get hold of even internally depending on whom the data is on and what they're investigating. But my point is, it's neither private nor anonymous..

This is my final reply to you.

A UK public agency called HMRC have been using Blockchain and private bank records to track people laundering money. They use both of them to FOLLOW THE MONEY as it changes hands and track who has it. Guess why? Because HMRC want people to pay tax on that money... They do not need metadata to figure this out. You are over complicating how this data is used. And for the record, HRMC is not an intel agency, they work with LE on money laundering cases.

That was just one example of many.

Don't think I disagree with you on how this data could be used, I just don't think you understand how this data is used practically. Nor do you take into account that people LE/intel want to track will cover their arse with i2p/tor

 

[Toz]

I don't believe that Bitcoin will be leaving us, any time, soon.

 

[Soucha]

Well that's my point. There's this meme floating around that btc is anonymous and encrypted and what not and you have all these sensationalized stories about groups like ISIS and the norks using and abusing bitcoin so it gives plebs the impression that it's going to give them some sort of an edge when in fact their own ignorance actually leads them to help construct a honeypot they and others get ensnared in. This could possibly be why the powers that be let bitcoin keep happening, you never know.

The thing is, the problem isn't actually with bitcoin itself...rather, it's actually to do with external services being attached to bitcoin accounts.
Bitcoin itself is secure, as there is no way to tell who owns a specific wallet. The problem comes when you add in your ip address to an external withdrawal service and don't funnel transactions properly to hide your identifying information. These are external services that have nothing to do with bitcoin itself. You as an individual are responsible for controlling your third party services. This literally has nothing to do with bitcoin itself though.

 

[MikeyMikey13]

The thing is, the problem isn't actually with bitcoin itself...rather, it's actually to do with external services being attached to bitcoin accounts.
Bitcoin itself is secure, as there is no way to tell who owns a specific wallet. The problem comes when you add in your ip address to an external withdrawal service and don't funnel transactions properly to hide your identifying information. These are external services that have nothing to do with bitcoin itself. You as an individual are responsible for controlling your third party services. This literally has nothing to do with bitcoin itself though.

NO SIR METADATA AND IP ADDRESSESSS!!!£$

I wouldn't bother disagreeing with that pretentious arsehole. His mind is set, let him think what he wants.

 

[TheSerpSlayer]

Right now you've took the time to answer your own question.

I'll ask again, how can they track the operators of SR with all these barriers you just identified? How impractical does this seem to you?

Right, so you can spoof your IP address and you can access an e-wallet, hosted somewhere else with this spoofed IP?

And let me point out, some offshore online wallets do not keep any logs at all. Stop assuming they do.

I am not sure where you're going with this. The SR operators weren't all that important. Just a bunch of people pushing consumer contraband. Tracking people is effortless, doing something about requires gargantum expenditures of money and resources.


I never even hinted that wallets kept any logs or IP records. You're not even comprehending what I said, what I was saying was that sigint can track everyone that accesses online wallets. They do not need any logs from the webmasters, they would not trust the webmasters anyway.

A UK public agency called HMRC have been using Blockchain and private bank records to track people laundering money. They use both of them to FOLLOW THE MONEY as it changes hands and track who has it. Guess why? Because HMRC want people to pay tax on that money... They do not need metadata to figure this out. You are over complicating how this data is used. And for the record, HRMC is not an intel agency, they work with LE on money laundering cases.

That was just one example of many.

Don't think I disagree with you on how this data could be used, I just don't think you understand how this data is used practically. Nor do you take into account that people LE/intel want to track will cover their arse with i2p/tor

Oh goodness. Are you assuming that everyone with access to this information is going to play their hand ASAP, or even at all? Yeah so HMRC does their own work but MI6 in conjunction with it's global partners has access to information about the blockchain that HMRC possibly never will.

tl;dr James Bond doesn't care enough to do a thing about 99.9% of what he knows, but you're assuming he doesn't know. He knows.

 

[TheSerpSlayer]

The thing is, the problem isn't actually with bitcoin itself...rather, it's actually to do with external services being attached to bitcoin accounts.
Bitcoin itself is secure, as there is no way to tell who owns a specific wallet. The problem comes when you add in your ip address to an external withdrawal service and don't funnel transactions properly to hide your identifying information. These are external services that have nothing to do with bitcoin itself. You as an individual are responsible for controlling your third party services. This literally has nothing to do with bitcoin itself though.

So what you're saying is that bitcoin is anonymous, but the internet is not? Yet you need the internet to use bitcoin hence bitcoin is not anonymous unless you can make your internet access anonymous. That's sort of what I'm saying too but I was trying to point out that there's people who due to their ignorance think that bitcoin is anonymous no matter what. Then there's others who think if you try to be clever you can make it anonymous. What I'm saying is that no, it's anonymity and security are both very limited.

 

[bartosimpsonio]

The JP Morgan guy said Bitcoin was a fraud, and then hours later when price fell, there were heavy Bitcoin purchases from JP Morgan. The guy is going to face legal issues for doing this.

 

[MikeyMikey13]

I am not sure where you're going with this. The SR operators weren't all that important. Just a bunch of people pushing consumer contraband. Tracking people is effortless, doing something about requires gargantum expenditures of money and resources.

You are the idiot that said that tracked them with BTC, now you are saying they went that important to use this method? You sir, are backwards and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Go back to reddit or whatever site you usually browse please.